[Quietcars] Toyota admits Prius had brake design

Malcolm Graham mjgraham at earthlink.net
Sat Feb 20 22:31:22 UTC 2010 

Howdy from Texas!
I heard that Toyota is coming out with a new model.  It's called the 
Kamikaze!
Regards,
Malcolm
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Wilson" <bwilson4web at hotmail.com>
To: <quietcars at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 6:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Toyota admits Prius had brake design


>
> Hi Mike,
>
> We had the brake pause fix, SSC-A0B, installed the following Saturday 
> afternoon. But that morning, I found some impressive potholes on the road 
> by the dog park and gathered more data with the accelerometer. After the 
> fix, I retested the potholes and on Sunday morning, we had snow-rain mix 
> and I was able to retest the speed bump. In every case, the brake pause is 
> gone.
>
> Toyota dealers are calling owners about the fix and using e-mail. Even 
> after scheduling the update, I got two voice messages on my office phone 
> and one e-mail over Thursday and Friday. I can't say anything about 
> compliance in the USA but a Toyota press release suggests the Japanese 
> owners are rapidly approaching 100% compliance with the upgrade. Since the 
> 2010 Prius is still under the 3 year and 36,000 mile warranty, I would 
> expect the rest to be handled by the dealers over the next 3-4 months. The 
> Prius factories started putting in the change in January and all USA 
> dealers were required to update their Prius inventory before selling 
> another one. The ones that arrive by boat will be handled either at the 
> dock or when they arrive at the dealer.
>
> Some of the 2004 through 2009 Prius owners reported a similar brake pause 
> but often with the words, "We just press the brake pedal harder" and have 
> pretty well lived with it. I'm trying to find some 2004-09 Prius owners to 
> collaborate on documenting their braking behavior. However, some seem a 
> little defensive as if this braking behavior comes with a hybrid. (I 
> suspect they would also tell us about how when they went to school they 
> had to trudge up-hill, bare foot, against the wind, both ways!) 
> Regardless, I suspect their brake pause may be much milder than we found 
> in the 2010 Prius.
>
> I still commute with my 2003 Prius and used the accelerometer to see if I 
> could detect the brake pause. So far, no luck. Our 2003 Prius is the same 
> model as was first sold in the USA. I can't replicate the problem and I 
> have instrumentation, a sensitive accelerometer, that would detect even a 
> weak event.
>
> The 2010 Prius, brake pause was intermittent and difficult to reproduce 
> and SSC-A0B fixes it. In the 2004-09 Prius it has been treated as just a 
> quirk handled by pressing harder on the pedal. There is no data showing 
> the 2001-03 Prius ever had the problem.
>
> Bob Wilson
>
> ps. Here are some photos and graphs showing the data:
>
> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_240.jpg
> (Dog park, pothole, about 4-5 inches deep and 7 feet long. It has already 
> been patched.)
>
> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_brake_050.jpg
> (Graph showing the brake pause at a speed bump, in a drizzle rain, at 17 
> mph.)
>
> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_brake_090.jpg
> (Graph of the same speed bump, in snow-rain, showing the pause is gone.)
>
>> From: bwilson4web at hotmail.com
>> To: quietcars at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:40:13 -0600
>> Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Toyota admits Prius had brake design
>>
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> I wanted to update the status of what we are calling the brake pause. 
>> Toyota has released a fix called SSC-A0B and two early adopters report 
>> that it works. First a quick recap of the 2010 Prius brake pause problem.
>>
>> It appears to happen with three conditions: speeds under 19 mph; and the 
>> brakes are lightly applied; and a slippery surface that activates the 
>> Anti-lock Brake System. It takes all three conditions, which explains why 
>> only half of the 2010 owners in January could report having experiencing 
>> it. I didn't experience until Friday, February 5, as a brief "sliding 
>> sensation" when crossing a speed bump during a drizzle. Fortunately, I 
>> had a recording accelerometer running and captured the event.
>>
>> At the entrance to the speed bump, the car was moving at just under 18 
>> mph and I was braking softly as I approached the guard station about 40 
>> paces in front. As the car went over the bump, the braking forces showed 
>> the pulsing associated with antilock brake action. Just as the car 
>> cleared the speed bump, all braking force paused for 700-800 milliseconds 
>> keeping the car speed at 17 mph covering a distance of 6 to 7 paces. 
>> There was a brief feeling of sliding, not unusual on Huntsville, rain 
>> slick streets. Others have reported that rapid application of the brakes 
>> stops the car immediately. But holding the brake pedal constant and the 
>> braking force returned about 800 milliseconds later and the car continued 
>> to slow down.
>>
>> Early Monday morning, February 8, we got a world wide recall notices for 
>> all 2010 Prius to have the skid controller software updated. Three early 
>> adopters report it takes less than an hour, closer to 30 minutes, to get 
>> the upgrade. Two of them reported that past places no longer show the 
>> braking pause.
>>
>> It will probably take a month to get all of the 2010 Prius back to the 
>> dealers and get the fix. Yesterday, I left a message with my dealer to 
>> find out if they are ready to fix our car and I'll probably have them 
>> change the oil at the same time. The brake pause can be completely 
>> handled by pressing harder on the brake pedals causing the car to stop 
>> almost instantly.
>>
>> There are reports that the earlier 2004-09 Prius have a similar braking 
>> pattern. However, the 2010 Prius braking system was redesigned and uses 
>> different software. Speculation on my part, I suspect the earlier Prius 
>> will eventually be recalled and fixed.
>>
>> One slightly related news item is Toyota has announced a recommitment to 
>> a more sensitive quality control system with these elements:
>>
>> 1) Improve Quality Inspection Process
>> 2) Enhance Customer Research
>> 3) Establish Automotive Center of Quality Excellence
>> 4) Support from Outside Experts
>> 5) Increased Communication
>> 6) Improve regional autonomy
>>
>> A press release is one thing and the practice can be something else. So I 
>> remain skeptically, optimistic. If Toyota pulls this off, they will set a 
>> new bar for excellence. This braking pause problem and the run-away 
>> accelerators have been a 'wake up' call and hopefully will renew Toyota's 
>> commitment to quality.
>>
>> Bob Wilson
>>
>> ps. For those with a technical interest, here are some photos of 
>> locations that exhibited the brake pause and the Friday incident captured 
>> by an accelerometer:
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_010.jpg
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_020.jpg
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_030.jpg
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_040.jpg
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_050.jpg
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_060.jpg
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_070.jpg
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_080.jpg
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_090.jpg
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_100.jpg
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_110.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_120.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_130.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_140.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_150.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_160.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_170.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_180.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_190.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_200.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_210.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_220.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>> The following shows graphs of the Friday incident:
>>
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_brake_030.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_brake_040.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_brake_050.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_brake_060.jpg
>>
>> It is a difficult problem to reproduce because of the combination of 
>> factors. Drop any one of them and the braking pause does not occur as 
>> this normal speed bump passage shows:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_brake_010.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_brake_020.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 15:22:39 -0500
>> > From: mrtownsend at optonline.net
>> > To: quietcars at nfbnet.org
>> > Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Toyota admits Prius had brake design
>> >
>> > Thanks for this, Bob.  It's welcoming news when someone as yourself 
>> > takes it
>> > upon themselves to replicate conditions and to verify what is bounced 
>> > off of
>> > us in the media.  Years back, during the heyday of Chrysler and Ford's
>> > recalls, the media was less zealous than they are now, and internet 
>> > look ups
>> > weren't widely available, nor were quickly found data bases.
>> > I appreciate your efforts.
>> >
>> >
>> > Mike T
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> > [mailto:quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> > Behalf Of Robert Wilson
>> > Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 10:45 AM
>> > To: quietcars at nfbnet.org
>> > Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Toyota admits Prius had brake design
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Michael,
>> >
>> > This latest news from Japan of a technical fix is certainly welcome 
>> > news to
>> > 2010 Prius owners. I wanted to share some of what we've found in the 
>> > Prius
>> > community.
>> >
>> > In a 30 day poll, about 50% have reported experiencing the brake 
>> > problem.
>> > I'm one who hasn't experienced anything beyond what happens when only 
>> > two of
>> > dozens potholes have been hit lasting only at these two pothole ... not
>> > beyond. Of the 50% who reported experiencing the problem, about 20% 
>> > believe
>> > it is severe. These are the owners I've been working with to identify 
>> > and
>> > quantify the problem.
>> >
>> > I've collected a series of Google Street View and digital photos of 
>> > specific
>> > locations where this happens. For those who have limited vision, you 
>> > can
>> > find them at:
>> > http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_010.jpg
>> > http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_020.jpg
>> >
>> > Just increase the digits in the image URLs by 010 up to 
>> > "Prius_bump_200.jpg"
>> >
>> > So far, I've tried to recreate the problem with our 2010 Prius and have 
>> > had
>> > no luck. This includes different braking experiments on snow and ice 
>> > covered
>> > back roads as well as trying to hit just about every pothole, railroad
>> > crossing and manhole cover I can find. For example, braking with 
>> > different
>> > forces on an icy road with one wheel on snow and ice and the other on
>> > pavement. Nothing abnormal happened as traction control came in and I 
>> > had
>> > full steering and ABS let me come to a stop. The car stopped fully 
>> > under
>> > control. Understand I am trying to recreate this problem and I'm not 
>> > having
>> > any luck with our 2010 Prius.
>> >
>> > I'm a conservative engineer, which means I'm not ready to try can call 
>> > a
>> > diagnosis. It is still under investigation. However, this is what those 
>> > who
>> > I've been working with have reported:
>> >
>> > 1) specific road defects - it has been in one case cleared by repaving 
>> > the
>> > road
>> > 2) inconsistent - it doesn't always happen but variable, seemingly 
>> > random
>> > times, the first time being a mixture of surprise and alarm
>> > 3) harder pedal pressure - the car stops abruptly, by mashing the pedal
>> > right away, the car comes to almost an instant stop to extent of 
>> > surprising
>> > passengers
>> > 4) slow speeds - 50% report it under 20 mph
>> >
>> > The Prius braking system is a fairly complex system including a 
>> > dedicated
>> > computer, multiple hydraulic valves, yaw and accelerometer, brake pedal
>> > position sensor, and an active interaction with the transmission. The
>> > maintenance manual discusses a fairly involved calibration process to 
>> > make
>> > sure all elements are working together.
>> >
>> > There are two other risks, sticking accelerators and even a Steve Woz 
>> > report
>> > about the cruise control. The accelerator problem has two causes, the 
>> > CTC
>> > part that is being modified with a shim in one recall and the earlier
>> > problem of floor mats catching accelerators. In both cases, the driver
>> > pushes the accelerator to the floor, maximum acceleration, and it 
>> > doesn't
>> > come back. The workaround is to shift into "N" and then use the 
>> > mechanical
>> > parking brake or remaining brake capacity to come to a safe stop. I've
>> > practiced both methods and know they work. Furthermore, our 2010 Prius 
>> > cuts
>> > power when the brakes are applied.
>> >
>> > As for the Woz report on cruise control, he eventually admitted it was 
>> > more
>> > operator error than anything else. He 'stacks' accelerate commands to 
>> > the
>> > cruise control computer and then the car 'takes off' and he backs them 
>> > off.
>> > He was also trying to make a valid point about difficulty reaching a 
>> > help
>> > desk or complaint center including the NHTSA.
>> >
>> > There are a lot of folks willing to spread Fear Uncertainty and Doubt 
>> > and
>> > I'm not here to minimize what appears to be a valid, intermittent, 
>> > braking
>> > problem. The braking problem does exist even if I can't replicate it 
>> > and it
>> > is being addressed. We just don't have a final resolution, yet. I can
>> > confirm others have reported credible, symptoms, and I'm working with 
>> > them
>> > to identify where it happens and try and replicate their results.
>> >
>> > If you have additional questions, I'll answer with what little I've 
>> > learned.
>> >
>> > Bob Wilson
>> >
>> > > Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 07:55:27 -0500
>> > > From: mrtownsend at optonline.net
>> > > To: tse-chat at uyahoogroups.com
>> > > Subject: [Quietcars] Toyota admits Prius had brake design
>> > >
>> > > One more for Toyota.  They have been under the microscope lately, 
>> > > but,
>> > > I think that all auto manufacturers have had their bad streaks of
>> > > luck.  And, because of global input of each manufacturer, for example
>> > > the CTS accelerator pedal assemblies that are universally utilized by
>> > > each man7ufacturer, Toyota may be one of many who will experience the
>> > > issue of unintended acceleration.  This brake software recall message
>> > > is also one which Prius owners should check out thoroughly and act if
>> > > their VIN number is one of those which is being looked into.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > There have been recalls or technical service bulletins issued on
>> > > vehicles for as long as I can remember, and this recall situation is
>> > > not unique to Toyota. Ford and GM, as well as Chrysler have made cars
>> > > for years that been inferior in design and overall quality, and they
>> > > have issued recalls for engines that self-destructed due to lack of
>> > > lubrication or cooling.  There have been transmission recalls for all
>> > > manufacturers.  Ford had a large issue with cars that were not fitted
>> > > with a piece of shielding that would have prevent cars from exploding
>> > > if they were rear ended, and the famous Ford Explorer/Mercury 
>> > > Mountaineer
>> > recall of tires and suspension is one for
>> > > the books as well.
>> > >
>> > > All manufacturers have done their part to fix wrongs once they were
>> > > found out by consumers or watchdog organizations.  And, I'm glad for 
>> > > the
>> > fact that
>> > > manufacturers and consumer groups work together on these issues.
>> > >
>> > > The sad part of this whole recall issue is this, or at least, it's my
>> > > humble opinion of these things.  I think that many people don't want
>> > > to be bothered with bringing their cars in for repair because it 
>> > > takes
>> > > time away from their regular chores to do so, and most often, they
>> > > don't either have access to a rental car or another vehicle to drive,
>> > > or their communities don't have a rental facility available.  Please
>> > > take advantage of the recalls.  If it weren't for consumer
>> > > organizations and watchdog campaigns, this notification process 
>> > > probably
>> > would have never been off the ground.
>> > >
>> > > Mike and Brent
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Toyota admits Prius had brake design problems Employees at Toyota
>> > > Motor Corp's Tsutsumi plant work at a Prius hybrid assembly line in
>> > > Toyota, central Japan. Toyota said its North American and Japanese
>> > > dealers had received several dozen complaints over what drivers
>> > > characterised as insufficient braking on the new Prius hybrid when
>> > > driving over bumpy or frozen roads.
>> > > REUTERS/Toyota
>> > > Motor Corp/Handout
>> > > Comments (3)
>> > > Yuri Kageyama
>> > > Tokyo - Associated Press
>> > > Published on Thursday, Feb. 04, 2010 3:58AM EST Last updated on
>> > > Thursday, Feb. 04, 2010 4:04AM EST T oyota admitted design problems
>> > > with the brakes in its prized Prius, adding to the catalogue of woes
>> > > for the world's No. 1 auto maker still reeling from a massive U.S.
>> > > recall involving faulty gas pedals.
>> > > Toyota Motor Corp. spokeswoman Ririko Takeuchi said Thursday that
>> > > Toyota discovered there were design problems with the antilock brake
>> > > system and corrected them for Prius models sold since late January,
>> > > including those being shipped overseas.
>> > > But the company said it was still investigating how to inform people
>> > > who had bought the gas-electric hybrid cars. Nothing was decided on
>> > > that front for Prius cars sold overseas, according to Toyota.
>> > > Complaints about braking problems in the third-generation Prius have
>> > > been reported in both the U.S. and Japan, combining to some 180, and
>> > > come amid a global recall of nearly 4.5 million other top-selling
>> > > vehicles for faulty gas pedals.
>> > > "We are investigating whether there are defects in the Prius," Toyota
>> > > executive Hiroyuki Yokoyama told reporters at Toyota's Tokyo 
>> > > headquarters.
>> > > The company gave few details of the brake flaw. A major Toyota
>> > > dealership in Tokyo said the auto maker had informed dealers that
>> > > Prius brakes can sometimes fail to work for less than a second but it 
>> > > had
>> > not told owners.
>> > > "It is disappointing because the Prius was receiving such rave 
>> > > reviews,"
>> > > said Hiroyuki Naito, a manager at the dealership. The latest model
>> > > Prius hit showrooms last May.
>> > > The problem with the Prius - the best-selling hybrid in the world and
>> > > Toyota's flagship model - is a big embarrassment for the auto maker 
>> > > in
>> > > its home turf Japan and another blow in the U.S., its biggest market.
>> > > In recent weeks, the auto maker had answered questions about its
>> > > overseas recalls for gas pedals with assurances that problems didn't
>> > > extend to Japanese vehicles, implying that it was doing a better job
>> > > with quality control in Japan.
>> > > The transport minister is ordering an investigation and said a recall
>> > > for the Prius should be considered. U.S. authorities are also
>> > investigating.
>> > > Earlier in Washington, U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood
>> > > startled the public with a comment, which he later retracted, that
>> > > Americans should park their recalled Toyotas unless driving to 
>> > > dealers for
>> > accelerator repairs.
>> > > The popular gas-electric Prius was not part of the most recent recall
>> > > over sticking gas pedals in eight top-selling models including the
>> > > Camry that spanned the U.S., Europe and China.
>> > > Toyota senior managing director Takahiro Ijichi defended the
>> > > automaker's quality standards.
>> > > "We have not sacrificed the quality for the sake of saving costs," he
>> > said.
>> > > "Quality
>> > > is our lifeline. We want our customers to feel safe and regain their
>> > > trust as soon as possible."
>> > > Toyota for the first time gave an estimate of the costs of the U.S.
>> > > recall at up to $2-billion (U.S.), with $1.1-billion for the costs 
>> > > for
>> > > the repairs and $770-million to $880-million in lost sales.
>> > > The Prius, the world's best-selling hybrid, has been extremely 
>> > > popular
>> > > in Japan because of government incentives that made hybrids tax-free.
>> > > More than 170,000 the new remodelled Prius cars were sold in Japan 
>> > > and
>> > > about 103,000 have been sold in the U.S. since May.
>> > > Despite snowballing problems with quality, Toyota said Thursday it
>> > > returned to profit in the October-December quarter because of healthy
>> > > sales of its green models including the Prius, and raised its 
>> > > forecast
>> > > for the fiscal year through March.
>> > > Net profit for October-December was about $1.7-billion. It forecast a
>> > > $880-million annual profit compared with its previous forecast for a
>> > > $2.2-billion loss.
>> > > Toyota also raised its full year sales outlook to 7.18 million units
>> > > from
>> > > 7.03 million.
>> > > The revised forecast remains lower than the 7.57 million vehicles it
>> > > sold last fiscal year. And it is unclear how well Toyota sales and
>> > > profits will hold up in coming months.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Quietcars mailing list
>> > > Quietcars at nfbnet.org
>> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/quietcars_nfbnet.org
>> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> > Quietcars:
>> > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/quietcars_nfbnet.org/bwilson4web
>> > > %40hotmail.com
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
>> > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Quietcars mailing list
>> > Quietcars at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/quietcars_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> > Quietcars:
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/quietcars_nfbnet.org/mrtownsend%40opto
>> > nline.net
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Quietcars mailing list
>> > Quietcars at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/quietcars_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> > Quietcars:
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/quietcars_nfbnet.org/bwilson4web%40hotmail.com
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Quietcars mailing list
>> Quietcars at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/quietcars_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Quietcars:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/quietcars_nfbnet.org/bwilson4web%40hotmail.com
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> Quietcars mailing list
> Quietcars at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/quietcars_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Quietcars:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/quietcars_nfbnet.org/mjgraham%40earthlink.net


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2696 - Release Date: 02/18/10 
19:34:00

More information about the QuietCars mailing list