[Quietcars] Toyota admits Prius had brake design
michael townsend
mrtownsend at optonline.net
Sun Feb 21 19:51:19 UTC 2010
Infantile at best. How about the ford Exploder or the plot thickens.
Thanks.
I think that this Toyota hype is just that, and for the very few cars that
have experienced difficulties as a while, I think that the American
automobile industry is piling on, as will the people to gain their own
fifteen minutes of fame. Toyota may not have done all it had to do as
quickly as it should have, but Ford let the Explorer situation simmer for a
while. GM's notorious head gasket issues plagued the V6 cars for years
without resolution.
Thanks for your interesting reports Bob.
Mike T
-----Original Message-----
From: quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Malcolm Graham
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 5:31 PM
To: Discussion of new quiet cars and pedestrian safety
Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Toyota admits Prius had brake design
Howdy from Texas!
I heard that Toyota is coming out with a new model. It's called the
Kamikaze!
Regards,
Malcolm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Wilson" <bwilson4web at hotmail.com>
To: <quietcars at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 6:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Toyota admits Prius had brake design
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> We had the brake pause fix, SSC-A0B, installed the following Saturday
> afternoon. But that morning, I found some impressive potholes on the
> road by the dog park and gathered more data with the accelerometer.
> After the fix, I retested the potholes and on Sunday morning, we had
> snow-rain mix and I was able to retest the speed bump. In every case,
> the brake pause is gone.
>
> Toyota dealers are calling owners about the fix and using e-mail. Even
> after scheduling the update, I got two voice messages on my office
> phone and one e-mail over Thursday and Friday. I can't say anything
> about compliance in the USA but a Toyota press release suggests the
> Japanese owners are rapidly approaching 100% compliance with the
> upgrade. Since the 2010 Prius is still under the 3 year and 36,000
> mile warranty, I would expect the rest to be handled by the dealers
> over the next 3-4 months. The Prius factories started putting in the
> change in January and all USA dealers were required to update their
> Prius inventory before selling another one. The ones that arrive by
> boat will be handled either at the dock or when they arrive at the dealer.
>
> Some of the 2004 through 2009 Prius owners reported a similar brake
> pause but often with the words, "We just press the brake pedal harder"
> and have pretty well lived with it. I'm trying to find some 2004-09
> Prius owners to collaborate on documenting their braking behavior.
> However, some seem a little defensive as if this braking behavior
> comes with a hybrid. (I suspect they would also tell us about how when
> they went to school they had to trudge up-hill, bare foot, against the
> wind, both ways!) Regardless, I suspect their brake pause may be much
> milder than we found in the 2010 Prius.
>
> I still commute with my 2003 Prius and used the accelerometer to see
> if I could detect the brake pause. So far, no luck. Our 2003 Prius is
> the same model as was first sold in the USA. I can't replicate the
> problem and I have instrumentation, a sensitive accelerometer, that
> would detect even a weak event.
>
> The 2010 Prius, brake pause was intermittent and difficult to
> reproduce and SSC-A0B fixes it. In the 2004-09 Prius it has been
> treated as just a quirk handled by pressing harder on the pedal. There
> is no data showing the 2001-03 Prius ever had the problem.
>
> Bob Wilson
>
> ps. Here are some photos and graphs showing the data:
>
> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_240.jpg
> (Dog park, pothole, about 4-5 inches deep and 7 feet long. It has
> already been patched.)
>
> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_brake_050.jpg
> (Graph showing the brake pause at a speed bump, in a drizzle rain, at
> 17
> mph.)
>
> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_brake_090.jpg
> (Graph of the same speed bump, in snow-rain, showing the pause is
> gone.)
>
>> From: bwilson4web at hotmail.com
>> To: quietcars at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:40:13 -0600
>> Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Toyota admits Prius had brake design
>>
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> I wanted to update the status of what we are calling the brake pause.
>> Toyota has released a fix called SSC-A0B and two early adopters
>> report that it works. First a quick recap of the 2010 Prius brake pause
problem.
>>
>> It appears to happen with three conditions: speeds under 19 mph; and
>> the brakes are lightly applied; and a slippery surface that activates
>> the Anti-lock Brake System. It takes all three conditions, which
>> explains why only half of the 2010 owners in January could report
>> having experiencing it. I didn't experience until Friday, February 5,
>> as a brief "sliding sensation" when crossing a speed bump during a
>> drizzle. Fortunately, I had a recording accelerometer running and
captured the event.
>>
>> At the entrance to the speed bump, the car was moving at just under
>> 18 mph and I was braking softly as I approached the guard station
>> about 40 paces in front. As the car went over the bump, the braking
>> forces showed the pulsing associated with antilock brake action. Just
>> as the car cleared the speed bump, all braking force paused for
>> 700-800 milliseconds keeping the car speed at 17 mph covering a distance
of 6 to 7 paces.
>> There was a brief feeling of sliding, not unusual on Huntsville, rain
>> slick streets. Others have reported that rapid application of the
>> brakes stops the car immediately. But holding the brake pedal
>> constant and the braking force returned about 800 milliseconds later
>> and the car continued to slow down.
>>
>> Early Monday morning, February 8, we got a world wide recall notices
>> for all 2010 Prius to have the skid controller software updated.
>> Three early adopters report it takes less than an hour, closer to 30
>> minutes, to get the upgrade. Two of them reported that past places no
>> longer show the braking pause.
>>
>> It will probably take a month to get all of the 2010 Prius back to
>> the dealers and get the fix. Yesterday, I left a message with my
>> dealer to find out if they are ready to fix our car and I'll probably
>> have them change the oil at the same time. The brake pause can be
>> completely handled by pressing harder on the brake pedals causing the
>> car to stop almost instantly.
>>
>> There are reports that the earlier 2004-09 Prius have a similar
>> braking pattern. However, the 2010 Prius braking system was
>> redesigned and uses different software. Speculation on my part, I
>> suspect the earlier Prius will eventually be recalled and fixed.
>>
>> One slightly related news item is Toyota has announced a recommitment
>> to a more sensitive quality control system with these elements:
>>
>> 1) Improve Quality Inspection Process
>> 2) Enhance Customer Research
>> 3) Establish Automotive Center of Quality Excellence
>> 4) Support from Outside Experts
>> 5) Increased Communication
>> 6) Improve regional autonomy
>>
>> A press release is one thing and the practice can be something else.
>> So I remain skeptically, optimistic. If Toyota pulls this off, they
>> will set a new bar for excellence. This braking pause problem and the
>> run-away accelerators have been a 'wake up' call and hopefully will
>> renew Toyota's commitment to quality.
>>
>> Bob Wilson
>>
>> ps. For those with a technical interest, here are some photos of
>> locations that exhibited the brake pause and the Friday incident
>> captured by an accelerometer:
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_010.jpg
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_020.jpg
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_030.jpg
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_040.jpg
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_050.jpg
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_060.jpg
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_070.jpg
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_080.jpg
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_090.jpg
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_100.jpg
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_110.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_120.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_130.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_140.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_150.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_160.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_170.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_180.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_190.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_200.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_210.jpg
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_220.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>> The following shows graphs of the Friday incident:
>>
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_brake_030.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_brake_040.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_brake_050.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_brake_060.jpg
>>
>> It is a difficult problem to reproduce because of the combination of
>> factors. Drop any one of them and the braking pause does not occur as
>> this normal speed bump passage shows:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_brake_010.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>> http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_brake_020.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 15:22:39 -0500
>> > From: mrtownsend at optonline.net
>> > To: quietcars at nfbnet.org
>> > Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Toyota admits Prius had brake design
>> >
>> > Thanks for this, Bob. It's welcoming news when someone as yourself
>> > takes it upon themselves to replicate conditions and to verify what
>> > is bounced off of us in the media. Years back, during the heyday
>> > of Chrysler and Ford's recalls, the media was less zealous than
>> > they are now, and internet look ups weren't widely available, nor
>> > were quickly found data bases.
>> > I appreciate your efforts.
>> >
>> >
>> > Mike T
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> > [mailto:quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert Wilson
>> > Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 10:45 AM
>> > To: quietcars at nfbnet.org
>> > Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Toyota admits Prius had brake design
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Michael,
>> >
>> > This latest news from Japan of a technical fix is certainly welcome
>> > news to
>> > 2010 Prius owners. I wanted to share some of what we've found in the
>> > Prius
>> > community.
>> >
>> > In a 30 day poll, about 50% have reported experiencing the brake
>> > problem.
>> > I'm one who hasn't experienced anything beyond what happens when only
>> > two of
>> > dozens potholes have been hit lasting only at these two pothole ... not
>> > beyond. Of the 50% who reported experiencing the problem, about 20%
>> > believe
>> > it is severe. These are the owners I've been working with to identify
>> > and
>> > quantify the problem.
>> >
>> > I've collected a series of Google Street View and digital photos of
>> > specific
>> > locations where this happens. For those who have limited vision, you
>> > can
>> > find them at:
>> > http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_010.jpg
>> > http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/Prius_bump_020.jpg
>> >
>> > Just increase the digits in the image URLs by 010 up to
>> > "Prius_bump_200.jpg"
>> >
>> > So far, I've tried to recreate the problem with our 2010 Prius and have
>> > had
>> > no luck. This includes different braking experiments on snow and ice
>> > covered
>> > back roads as well as trying to hit just about every pothole, railroad
>> > crossing and manhole cover I can find. For example, braking with
>> > different
>> > forces on an icy road with one wheel on snow and ice and the other on
>> > pavement. Nothing abnormal happened as traction control came in and I
>> > had
>> > full steering and ABS let me come to a stop. The car stopped fully
>> > under
>> > control. Understand I am trying to recreate this problem and I'm not
>> > having
>> > any luck with our 2010 Prius.
>> >
>> > I'm a conservative engineer, which means I'm not ready to try can call
>> > a
>> > diagnosis. It is still under investigation. However, this is what those
>> > who
>> > I've been working with have reported:
>> >
>> > 1) specific road defects - it has been in one case cleared by repaving
>> > the
>> > road
>> > 2) inconsistent - it doesn't always happen but variable, seemingly
>> > random
>> > times, the first time being a mixture of surprise and alarm
>> > 3) harder pedal pressure - the car stops abruptly, by mashing the pedal
>> > right away, the car comes to almost an instant stop to extent of
>> > surprising
>> > passengers
>> > 4) slow speeds - 50% report it under 20 mph
>> >
>> > The Prius braking system is a fairly complex system including a
>> > dedicated
>> > computer, multiple hydraulic valves, yaw and accelerometer, brake pedal
>> > position sensor, and an active interaction with the transmission. The
>> > maintenance manual discusses a fairly involved calibration process to
>> > make
>> > sure all elements are working together.
>> >
>> > There are two other risks, sticking accelerators and even a Steve Woz
>> > report
>> > about the cruise control. The accelerator problem has two causes, the
>> > CTC
>> > part that is being modified with a shim in one recall and the earlier
>> > problem of floor mats catching accelerators. In both cases, the driver
>> > pushes the accelerator to the floor, maximum acceleration, and it
>> > doesn't
>> > come back. The workaround is to shift into "N" and then use the
>> > mechanical
>> > parking brake or remaining brake capacity to come to a safe stop. I've
>> > practiced both methods and know they work. Furthermore, our 2010 Prius
>> > cuts
>> > power when the brakes are applied.
>> >
>> > As for the Woz report on cruise control, he eventually admitted it was
>> > more
>> > operator error than anything else. He 'stacks' accelerate commands to
>> > the
>> > cruise control computer and then the car 'takes off' and he backs them
>> > off.
>> > He was also trying to make a valid point about difficulty reaching a
>> > help
>> > desk or complaint center including the NHTSA.
>> >
>> > There are a lot of folks willing to spread Fear Uncertainty and Doubt
>> > and
>> > I'm not here to minimize what appears to be a valid, intermittent,
>> > braking
>> > problem. The braking problem does exist even if I can't replicate it
>> > and it
>> > is being addressed. We just don't have a final resolution, yet. I can
>> > confirm others have reported credible, symptoms, and I'm working with
>> > them
>> > to identify where it happens and try and replicate their results.
>> >
>> > If you have additional questions, I'll answer with what little I've
>> > learned.
>> >
>> > Bob Wilson
>> >
>> > > Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 07:55:27 -0500
>> > > From: mrtownsend at optonline.net
>> > > To: tse-chat at uyahoogroups.com
>> > > Subject: [Quietcars] Toyota admits Prius had brake design
>> > >
>> > > One more for Toyota. They have been under the microscope lately,
>> > > but,
>> > > I think that all auto manufacturers have had their bad streaks of
>> > > luck. And, because of global input of each manufacturer, for example
>> > > the CTS accelerator pedal assemblies that are universally utilized by
>> > > each man7ufacturer, Toyota may be one of many who will experience the
>> > > issue of unintended acceleration. This brake software recall message
>> > > is also one which Prius owners should check out thoroughly and act if
>> > > their VIN number is one of those which is being looked into.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > There have been recalls or technical service bulletins issued on
>> > > vehicles for as long as I can remember, and this recall situation is
>> > > not unique to Toyota. Ford and GM, as well as Chrysler have made cars
>> > > for years that been inferior in design and overall quality, and they
>> > > have issued recalls for engines that self-destructed due to lack of
>> > > lubrication or cooling. There have been transmission recalls for all
>> > > manufacturers. Ford had a large issue with cars that were not fitted
>> > > with a piece of shielding that would have prevent cars from exploding
>> > > if they were rear ended, and the famous Ford Explorer/Mercury
>> > > Mountaineer
>> > recall of tires and suspension is one for
>> > > the books as well.
>> > >
>> > > All manufacturers have done their part to fix wrongs once they were
>> > > found out by consumers or watchdog organizations. And, I'm glad for
>> > > the
>> > fact that
>> > > manufacturers and consumer groups work together on these issues.
>> > >
>> > > The sad part of this whole recall issue is this, or at least, it's my
>> > > humble opinion of these things. I think that many people don't want
>> > > to be bothered with bringing their cars in for repair because it
>> > > takes
>> > > time away from their regular chores to do so, and most often, they
>> > > don't either have access to a rental car or another vehicle to drive,
>> > > or their communities don't have a rental facility available. Please
>> > > take advantage of the recalls. If it weren't for consumer
>> > > organizations and watchdog campaigns, this notification process
>> > > probably
>> > would have never been off the ground.
>> > >
>> > > Mike and Brent
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Toyota admits Prius had brake design problems Employees at Toyota
>> > > Motor Corp's Tsutsumi plant work at a Prius hybrid assembly line in
>> > > Toyota, central Japan. Toyota said its North American and Japanese
>> > > dealers had received several dozen complaints over what drivers
>> > > characterised as insufficient braking on the new Prius hybrid when
>> > > driving over bumpy or frozen roads.
>> > > REUTERS/Toyota
>> > > Motor Corp/Handout
>> > > Comments (3)
>> > > Yuri Kageyama
>> > > Tokyo - Associated Press
>> > > Published on Thursday, Feb. 04, 2010 3:58AM EST Last updated on
>> > > Thursday, Feb. 04, 2010 4:04AM EST T oyota admitted design problems
>> > > with the brakes in its prized Prius, adding to the catalogue of woes
>> > > for the world's No. 1 auto maker still reeling from a massive U.S.
>> > > recall involving faulty gas pedals.
>> > > Toyota Motor Corp. spokeswoman Ririko Takeuchi said Thursday that
>> > > Toyota discovered there were design problems with the antilock brake
>> > > system and corrected them for Prius models sold since late January,
>> > > including those being shipped overseas.
>> > > But the company said it was still investigating how to inform people
>> > > who had bought the gas-electric hybrid cars. Nothing was decided on
>> > > that front for Prius cars sold overseas, according to Toyota.
>> > > Complaints about braking problems in the third-generation Prius have
>> > > been reported in both the U.S. and Japan, combining to some 180, and
>> > > come amid a global recall of nearly 4.5 million other top-selling
>> > > vehicles for faulty gas pedals.
>> > > "We are investigating whether there are defects in the Prius," Toyota
>> > > executive Hiroyuki Yokoyama told reporters at Toyota's Tokyo
>> > > headquarters.
>> > > The company gave few details of the brake flaw. A major Toyota
>> > > dealership in Tokyo said the auto maker had informed dealers that
>> > > Prius brakes can sometimes fail to work for less than a second but it
>> > > had
>> > not told owners.
>> > > "It is disappointing because the Prius was receiving such rave
>> > > reviews,"
>> > > said Hiroyuki Naito, a manager at the dealership. The latest model
>> > > Prius hit showrooms last May.
>> > > The problem with the Prius - the best-selling hybrid in the world and
>> > > Toyota's flagship model - is a big embarrassment for the auto maker
>> > > in
>> > > its home turf Japan and another blow in the U.S., its biggest market.
>> > > In recent weeks, the auto maker had answered questions about its
>> > > overseas recalls for gas pedals with assurances that problems didn't
>> > > extend to Japanese vehicles, implying that it was doing a better job
>> > > with quality control in Japan.
>> > > The transport minister is ordering an investigation and said a recall
>> > > for the Prius should be considered. U.S. authorities are also
>> > investigating.
>> > > Earlier in Washington, U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood
>> > > startled the public with a comment, which he later retracted, that
>> > > Americans should park their recalled Toyotas unless driving to
>> > > dealers for
>> > accelerator repairs.
>> > > The popular gas-electric Prius was not part of the most recent recall
>> > > over sticking gas pedals in eight top-selling models including the
>> > > Camry that spanned the U.S., Europe and China.
>> > > Toyota senior managing director Takahiro Ijichi defended the
>> > > automaker's quality standards.
>> > > "We have not sacrificed the quality for the sake of saving costs," he
>> > said.
>> > > "Quality
>> > > is our lifeline. We want our customers to feel safe and regain their
>> > > trust as soon as possible."
>> > > Toyota for the first time gave an estimate of the costs of the U.S.
>> > > recall at up to $2-billion (U.S.), with $1.1-billion for the costs
>> > > for
>> > > the repairs and $770-million to $880-million in lost sales.
>> > > The Prius, the world's best-selling hybrid, has been extremely
>> > > popular
>> > > in Japan because of government incentives that made hybrids tax-free.
>> > > More than 170,000 the new remodelled Prius cars were sold in Japan
>> > > and
>> > > about 103,000 have been sold in the U.S. since May.
>> > > Despite snowballing problems with quality, Toyota said Thursday it
>> > > returned to profit in the October-December quarter because of healthy
>> > > sales of its green models including the Prius, and raised its
>> > > forecast
>> > > for the fiscal year through March.
>> > > Net profit for October-December was about $1.7-billion. It forecast a
>> > > $880-million annual profit compared with its previous forecast for a
>> > > $2.2-billion loss.
>> > > Toyota also raised its full year sales outlook to 7.18 million units
>> > > from
>> > > 7.03 million.
>> > > The revised forecast remains lower than the 7.57 million vehicles it
>> > > sold last fiscal year. And it is unclear how well Toyota sales and
>> > > profits will hold up in coming months.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
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