[Sportsandrec] echo location was blind skateboarder

Fri Feb 15 22:19:21 UTC 2013

Julie,
They forgot to change subject lines causing confusion.
World access for the blind teaches this tongue clicking echo location, fyi.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Julie J.
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 9:21 AM
To: Sports and Recreation for the Blind Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Sportsandrec] echo location was blind skateboarder

Justin L.,

Thank you!  This makes a lot of sense and is very useful.  I think I
have missed a lot of this discussion because I thought people were still
talking about skateboarding, which I have absolutely no interest in.

So where do you teach this stuff? Do you travel and do weekend workshops
or do blind people travel to you?  I am very interested in learning this
skill.  I use some very basic echolocation skills, but nowhere near what
you are telling me is possible.

How does wind and weather conditions affect this ability?  I live in
Nebraska where it is perpetually windy.  There are days when the wind is
blowing 40mph and I can't hear anything but the wind.

Also, I am primarily a guide dog user so the cane tap method isn't going
to be any sort of useful to me.  My dog makes course corrections further
in advance of any of my other dogs.  I appreciate his thoughtfulness and
planning, but if I was more aware of why he is wanting to do what he is
suggesting to me, it would be a huge help.  There are times that he
wants to take a detour, but I insist that we continue only to find out
two driveways down that people are moving and there is a van parked
across the sidewalk and stuff everywhere, making it impossible to go
by.   We end up backtracking and making the turn he suggested in the
first place.

Thank you again for the excellent explanation of what is possible.   I
honestly had no idea.
Julie

On 2/15/2013 7:38 AM, JUSTIN LOUCHART wrote:
> Hello, Everyone,
>
> I'm going to point out that there are two Justins involved with this
> conversation. There's Justin Williams, who wants to hide his potential
> echolocation abilities, and there's me, Justin Louchart, who is an
> echolocation teacher and strives to make my skills and the skills of
> others public information available to all interested  parties.
>
> Julie, in response to your question about cane taps being used for
> echolocation, there are two parts to my answer as an educator and as a
> scientist in the field.
>
> First, yes, your cane tap can be used as a relatively bad echolocation 
> signal.
>
> Second, emphasis on the relatively bad.
>
> The cane tap comes from the ground, hits the target, and reaches the
> ears. Meaning that all of your images are going to be bent, blurry,
> and inconsistent. Not only that, but furthermore there is no real aim
> or directionality in using a cane tap. Next, the cane tap doesn't work
> on all or even most surfaces. You cannot modulate the volume or the
> frequency of the cane tap in anywhere near the same way you can a
> tongue click. Finally, your acuity simply isn't as good with a cane
> tap, no matter what you do. You won't be able to see the front versus
> the back of a car with your cane tap from fifteen feet away.
>
> It might be worth mentioning that if you're using your cane tap for
> echolocation, riding a bicycle independently in unknown environments,
> riding a mountain bike on advanced trails, hiking on your own, doing
> independent mountain climbing, doing advanced tree climbing, and
> accomplishing a thousand other independent recreational activities is
> much less convenient or likely to happen.
>
> I have no fear when I travel, no matter what I'm asked to do. Flash
> sonar and other perceptual mobility techniques give me the options to
> do anything from walk to the grocery store without running into
> anything to go bicycling on an unknown street with my students. Flash
> sonar opened doors for me and for countless others that most blind
> folks don't even realize are closed to them. If you ask most blind
> people why they don't go mountain biking, hiking, or why they don't
> play soccer with sighted peers, they're going to tell you that they
> don't even want to. Well, how much of their not wanting to is a result
> of their not thinking it's easy or fun? How much of it is because
> blindness and people around blindness indicated to them that it's
> either impossible, or not worth the effort?
>
>
> I don't have to worry about any of that. I see my environment quite
> similarly to any sighted person, mine just doesn't have color or
> extremely fine details. I can choose how to navigate an environment
> usually a block or half a block away, depending on clutter. If you
> have that preparation, a million things are easier.
>
> Justin
>
> On 2/15/13, Julie J.<julielj at neb.rr.com>  wrote:
>> I'm confused as to why you want to hide your abilities?     I don't get
>> the sense that you are embarrased or that you think it would truly be a
>> bother to other people.
>>
>> Also, doesn't the tap of the cane tip provide a sound from which to use
>> for echolocation?  Maybe you've discussed this, I don't know.  Again the
>> subject was about skateboarding so I wasn't reading.
>>
>> Very curiously,
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Hi, Justin,
>>>
>>> Well, do ya think most sighted people will be none the wiser about
>>> what you are doing, unless they know what to be listening for?
>>> Perhaps, amongst other blind folk, such an ability might be hard to
>>> conceal, but relax about your treasure. What's the point of hiding it
>>> when, I'm sure you don't see sighted people concealing the fact that,
>>> they might be able to ocularly see. For me, seeing without eyes even
>>> is a tremendous asset to my travel, in fact to most fasits of
>>> mobility, and my life in general.
>>> Please don't see this as an attack. I'm just befuddled.
>>> Car 09:24 AM 2/11/2013, justin williams wrote:
>>>> I can't figure out a good work around as of yet.  I really don't want
>>>> everyone to hear the clicking.  I believe in keeping your abilities
>>>> hidden.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Sportsandrec [mailto:sportsandrec-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf 
>>>> Of
>>>> Carly Mihalakis
>>>> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 4:57 PM
>>>> To: Sports and Recreation for the Blind Discussion List; 'Sports and
>>>> Recreation for the Blind Discussion List'
>>>> Subject: Re: [Sportsandrec] Blind skateboarder
>>>>
>>>> Hi, Jody,
>>>>
>>>> In an event that no one has yet answered, you sort of slide your tongue
>>>> against the roof of your mouth, in the way that some people make a
>>>> little
>>>> noise while they are absent mindedly, pondering something. I  have
>>>> successfully made any type of similar sound, functioning as a sort of
>>>> tongue
>>>> click, but a little less obvious, something that I can only perceive.
>>>> Play
>>>> with it, you can use anything to offer the same feedback about which
>>>> you are
>>>> looking device to offer similar  effects of a tongue click, such as
>>>> drawing
>>>> in some breath between your top teeth. That also works very well in
>>>> situations where one must be quiet, as they try to navigate.
>>>> Car
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> JUSTIN LOUCHART
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 7:59 PM
>>>>> To: Sports and Recreation for the Blind Discussion List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Sportsandrec] Blind skateboarder
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi, Jody,
>>>>>
>>>>> Ben's echolocation ability was quite good, but by no means unique.
>>>>> Virtually anyone can learn flash sonar to that degree. It simply takes
>>>>> diligence. It's easier than you might think; just most people don't
>>>>> ever have training in it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Justin Louchart
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/10/13, Jody Ianuzzi<jody at thewhitehats.com>  wrote:
>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have been offline for a week so this may be old news.  Ben
>>>>>> Underwood had a remarkable echolocation ability.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am sad to say he died a few years ago at only 16 years old.  His
>>>>>> blindness was caused by cancer of the retina and his eyes were
>>>>>> removed when he was 2.
>>>>>> Unfortunately the cancer returned and he died of brain cancer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> JODY
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Justin Louchart
>>>>> JALOUCHART at GMAIL.COM
>>>>>
>>>>> Inveniam Viam Aut Faciam
>>>>>
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