[stylist] A New Member

Sun Dec 28 04:19:55 UTC 2008

Um, is this really on topic for this list?> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:26:43 -0500> From: jbron at optonline.net> To: stylist at nfbnet.org> Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member> > I don't think I'm going to stir things up John, New York state doesn't stir > well. They are happy living in their narrow world training people to > perform jobs that are beneath blind professionals who work in their > bureaucracy.> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Lee Clark" <johnlee at clarktouch.com>> To: "'NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>> Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:46 PM> Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member> > > > Judith:> >> > But blind people can drive to their clients! It is pure discrimination > > when> > the state services brass demand that they be able to drive in a specific> > manner and style or otherwise stay out. I am shocked that the reason all > > of> > your counselors are sighted is because they fit the narrow definition of> > fulfilling their duties that eliminate blind people frorm the same jobs.> > This is totally unacceptable, and all legal measures should be undertaken > > to> > abolish such unethical practices!> >> > In my father's case, he is a top administrator in the state of Minnesota's> > Division Serving the Deaf, Hard of Hearing, and DeafBlind in the > > Department> > of Human Services. He is deafblind and heads the DeafBlind Services > > branch.> > Part of his job description is to travel to clients and branch offices sto> > check on his subordinates. He does this just fine. Maybe it's not in the> > same manner as some other employees, who get a state car and sit behind > > the> > wheel, but so what? He still goes places, shows up on time, and does his> > job.> >> > What state do you live in? I've got this burning desire to go over there> > and stir things up!> >> > John, with smoke whitsling from his ears> >> >> >> >> >> > -----Original Message-----> > From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On> > Behalf Of Judith Bron> > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:40 PM> > To: NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List> > Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member> >> > Every counsellor I've had with the commission for the blind has been> > sighted. They are required to drive to their clients. Obviously blind> > people cannot fill these roles. However, in teaching blind people to use> > adaptive equipment blind individuals do this in facilities for the blind. > > I> >> > work with other handicaps, mostly mental disabilities, but have never > > worked> >> > with a blind person in rehabilitation. Yes, we have a blind governor in > > New> >> > York State but he doesn't use adaptive equipment,, walk with a white cane > > or> >> > read braille. I just keep forging ahead with my own thing. Judith> > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John Lee Clark" <johnlee at clarktouch.com>> > To: "'NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>> > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:58 PM> > Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member> >> >> >> Judith:> >>> >> Deafness is an invisible to most. Deaf people can spot a deaf person a> >> mile> >> away with the way their eyes move, but most hearing people don't know> >> anything until they'[re spoken to but don't respond, or if they see them> >> signing.> >>> >> Blindness is more visible, certainly.> >>> >> But more accepted? Maybe as objects of sexual desire, but other than> >> that,> >> there's this difference in language. Blind people speak the same > >> language> >> with the mainstream. For this reason, I think blind people have greater> >> potential for employment. However, blind unemployment is far higher than> >> deaf unemployment.> >>> >> I think blind people are in higher positions, but deaf people have more> >> jobs, just not as many in very high positions. There are several> >> "industries" suited especially for deaf people. One is the ASL teaching> >> industry. As the second most popular foreign language and the fastest> >> growing, there are more than twenty thousand ASL teachers in the country.> >> This industry includes performers for ASL videos, writers of ASL> >> textbooks,> >> tutors, etc. Then there is the relay services industry. Text relay,> >> CapTel, and most popular, video relay. This is a multi-billion dollar> >> industry and employs many deaf people in administration, training, and> >> marketing. A third source of employment is working for the states, for> >> departments of human services and commissions and social work and also> >> teaching in the state schools for the deaf. You understand, most > >> services> >> provided to the deaf are provided by deaf people, too. Not many hearing> >> people are capable or qualified to teach deaf children, give counseling,> >> train, whatever.> >>> >> But outside of these areas and other smaller businesses geared toward the> >> deaf, they don't have much headway. We don't have a deaf judge or a deaf> >> governor, but you've got blind people in those positions.> >>> >> I may be wrong but low blind employment may have to do with the fact > >> blind> >> people are not required for meeting the needs of or providing services to> >> the blind. Maybe you've got a good source of employment in vocational> >> rehabilitation, but to me, it seems there are way too many sighted> >> teachers,> >> trainers, counselors, and technicians that work with blind people. And > >> is> >> the fact that blindness is a great deal with SSDI a factor for the high> >> unemployment? Deaf people can only earn up to eight hundred dollars per> >> month if they want to keep their SSDI, whereas blind people can earn up > >> to> >> twice that. So it is more in the interest for the deaf to seek full time> >> jobs and less in the interest for the blind to do the same.> >>> >> What do you think?> >>> >> John> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -----Original Message-----> >> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On> >> Behalf Of Judith Bron> >> Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 5:16 PM> >> To: NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List> >> Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member> >>> >> Could it be that deafness is more acceptable than blindness is that deaf> >> people don't look different? In many cases the blind person's eyes look> >> different from the sighted person's eyes. Judith> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Donna Hill" <penatwork at epix.net>> >> To: "NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>> >> Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 6:45 PM> >> Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member> >>> >>> >>> John,> >>> I understand your perspective and I am writing a novel with a blind> >>> character, but having grown up trying to be sighted and being taught to> >>> be> >>> >>> sighted, I have information from that world as well and have written > >>> some> >>> fiction with non blind characters, simply to avoid having the story be> >>> about blindness, when the real point is more complicated as well as> >>> universal.> >>>> >>> I also can't help wondering, especially reading this particular post,> >>> about the difference between the blind and deaf communities. If the> >>> blind> >>> >>> community were as large, independent and self-integrated as the deaf> >>> community and if blindness were as socially acceptable as deafness --> >>> i.e., Marly Maitlin is a superstar and the only blind woman anyone knows> >>> is Helen Keller who died over fifty years ago, well, perhaps there would> >>> be a market for blindness-related literature.> >>> Donna> >>>> >>> -- > >>> For my bio & to hear clips from The Last Straw:> >>> http://cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill> >>>> >>> Apple I-Tunes> >>>> >>> phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=259244374> >>>> >>> Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind> >>> www.padnfb.org> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> John Lee Clark wrote:> >>>> Shelley:> >>>>> >>>> Aside from my six-year run as publisher of my own publishing operation,> >>>> I> >>>> have been involved in the publishing world for twelve years. I've> >>>> worked> >>>> with many, many writers, about half of them hearing sighted and the> >>>> other> >>>> deaf sighted with a few deafblind. While the quality of the writing> >>>> always> >>>> plays a role in whether or not something gets published, the deaf> >>>> writers'> >>>> writing from the deaf perspective is always, always an advantage.> >>>>> >>>> No, I don't mean one needs to make a conscious effort to write "about"> >>>> being> >>>> deaf, in the didactic sense. Just write about life--love, crime,> >>>> family,> >>>> whatever--but through deaf eyes, drawing from the deaf writer's own> >>>> observations and sensations. Ha Jin, the well-known writer, made the> >>>> point> >>>> in his latest book that there are too many writers who write about > >>>> stuff> >>>> they learned in a secondhand fashion, and readers can pick it up, even> >>>> though they may not be conscious. The writer's describing his or her> >>>> own> >>>> genuine observations and experiences for the purpose of describing> >>>> things> >>> >>>> is> >>>> very important and lends the work with an aura of, a vibe exuding> >>>> authenticity.> >>>>> >>>> So that's one benefit of writing exactly what you know. Another boon > >>>> to> >>>> any> >>>> writer is any type of outsiderhood. If you look back on the annals of> >>>> literature, those who are "different" from the establishment population> >>>> but> >>>> don't write from that different perspective don't get published often,> >>>> or> >>> >>>> if> >>>> they do, their work wears off quickly and they are forgotten. Take the> >>>> example of Thomas Caldwell, who was deaf, but wrote as if he wasn't.> >>>> Who> >>>> knows him now? Or take Richard Wright, a wonderful and groundbreaking> >>>> African American writer. All of his books are still in print, except> >>>> one,> >>>> and that was the only book he wrote about only white people.> >>>>> >>>> You understand, there are tens of thousands sighted people writing and> >>>> trying to get published. So I cannot imagine any use in adding more of> >>>> the> >>>> same types of material to that pot. There are only a limited number of> >>>> genres and plots, and they all have been done over and over again. But> >>>> if> >>>> you're blind, and you're privileged to have different sensations and a> >>>> different touch in your observations, that's quite a blessing and will> >>>> help> >>>> your work stand out amidst the awful racket of the same old, same old> >>>> that> >>>> editors endure reading through week after week.> >>>>> >>>> Now, my deaf writer friends, they all have found their most important> >>>> and> >>>> rewarding publishing credits through their deaf material. Many of > >>>> them,> >>>> before they started workring with me, wrote only mainstream stuff,> >>>> thinking> >>>> they would have a better chance. Not so. Take Raymond Luczak: He has> >>>> written over forty plays, but only twelve with deaf characters.> >>>> Thirteen> >>> >>>> of> >>>> his plays have been produced. All twelve deaf plays and one not make > >>>> up> >>>> the> >>>> thirteen, leaving the rest of his "hearing" plays still collecting > >>>> dust.> >>>> He> >>>> has written four novels, only one with deaf characters. No surprise:> >>>> The> >>>> three mainstream works remain unpublished and the deaf one won a> >>>> prestigious> >>>> fellowship and also a national first-novel contest and will be coming> >>>> out> >>>> soon. Raymond's "hearing" stuff is good and worthy of publication, but> >>>> the> >>>> problem is that there are so many equally good stuff these days, > >>>> because> >>>> there are so many well-trained writers from all those MFA programs.> >>>> Those> >>>> who get published are the ones with unique voices, original twists, or> >>>> those> >>>> who bring to the reader authentic tastes of different worlds.> >>>>> >>>> I once got a story from a good deaf writer. It was about the Titanic.> >>>> A> >>>> couple gets separated at the end, the woman rowed away while the man> >>>> sinks> >>>> with the ship. It was wonderfully researched and detailed. The > >>>> writing> >>>> was> >>>> smooth and luminous. In all the fundamental areas, it was a superb> >>>> story.> >>>> But it was never picked up, and the deaf writer could not understand > >>>> why> >>>> not, since it was one of her very best efforts. The reason, of course,> >>>> is> >>>> that the Titanic as the backdrop for a love story has been done to> >>>> death.> >>>> It was already worn threadbare even before that movie with Leo and > >>>> Kate.> >>>> But what if the couple was deaf? They wake up because of the great> >>>> commotion outside their room sending vibrations to them. They ask each> >>>> other what's going on. Outside their room, they see people running.> >>>> They> >>>> try to get someone to write to them on a notepad, but they're all> >>>> panicked.> >>>> So they have to investigate, and gradually, from all the visual> >>>> information,> >>>> they begin to understand. A sailor tries to put the deaf woman in line> >>>> for> >>>> getting on a lifeboat, but she doesn't want to be separated from her> >>>> husband. All sorts of misunderstandings, issues, correctives, etc.> >>>> occur.> >>>> And at the end, a twist on the classic separation thing: The deaf woman> >>>> decides to sink with her husband, so strong is their bond with each> >>>> other> >>> >>>> as> >>>> they come from a small community and the deaf woman cannot imagine> >>>> venturing> >>>> out on her own amidst all those hearing strangers.> >>>> Now, isn't that a much better story? A blind couple on the Titanic> >>>> would> >>>> likewise be much better than the mainstream version and would > >>>> definitely> >>>> stand out!> >>>>> >>>> Incidentally, some of the hearing writers I've worked with but who have> >>>> connectins to the Deaf world, they also have found greater success in> >>>> publishing their work relating to the Deaf world as opposed to their> >>>> more> >>>> mainstream fare. Take Morgan Grayce Willow, an ASL interpreter. Her> >>>> biggest book credit is her work on interpreting. Her most prestigious> >>>> magazine credit is for her essay "Double Language," about her> >>>> experiences> >>> >>>> as> >>>> an interpreter. She has published other stuff, but with much more> >>>> difficulty and less compensation. Or take Pia Taavila, a wonderful > >>>> poet> >>>> and> >>>> professor of English, who is the daughter of deaf parents, or a CODA as> >>>> we> >>>> call people like her--Children of Deaf Adults. She has written both> >>>> mainstream stuff and stuff having to do with her upbringing in a Deaf> >>>> home> >>>> and her continued link with the Deaf community. You guessed it again:> >>>> Her> >>>> Deaf-related poems are more readily published and get higher praise.> >>>>> >>>> It is not that they can't get published without the deaf material. > >>>> They> >>>> can> >>>> and have. But it is against greater, much greater odds that they do.> >>>> Here> >>>> and there, they are able to be heard, able to be distinguished from the> >>>> rest> >>>> clamoring for the same editor's attention. And it's not that writing> >>>> from a> >>>> different perspective will automatically get you published. The > >>>> writing> >>>> still has to be good. But it is a huge advantage in arresting the> >>>> editor's> >>>> attention, curiosity, and interest.> >>>>> >>>> I don't know how the deaf writers could possibly try to write > >>>> mainstream> >>>> stuff, or how you could avoid writing as a blind writer, but I never> >>>> could,> >>>> never wanted to. It feels fake and contrived to me. It would take too> >>>> much> >>>> effort to pretend, to write about auditory things I never heard, to> >>>> write> >>>> visual descriptions of what I have never seen. I am of the opinion > >>>> that> >>>> "'catering" to the mainstream audience is self-defeating, because there> >>>> are> >>>> many writers that produce mainstream stuff and it's not like they're> >>>> "catering" but they're genuine because they ARE mainstream. I have> >>>> always> >>>> written straight from who and what I am. And I am not complaining > >>>> about> >>>> my> >>>> inability to write mainstream stuff because I've been published in> >>>> POETRY> >>>> magazine twice, while there are thousands of poets who can only dream> >>>> about> >>>> ever getting there; I've been published in McSWEENEY'S, America's most> >>>> hip> >>>> literary journal; I've won all those awards; my work has been broadcast> >>>> on> >>>> radio, including on the "Poem of the Day" program on Martha Stewart; > >>>> I'm> >>>> being interviewed by someone from The New Yorker right now; I've been a> >>>> featured poet at an international cultural arts festival, flown there> >>>> first-class and with all expenses paid . . . so I guess I must be> >>>> doing> >>>> something right.> >>>>> >>>> No, that was not to brag at all. That was purely to make my point, to> >>>> make> >>>> my case for writing from a different angle, and to encourage you and> >>>> others> >>>> to try doing that. Hey, it can't hurt to try, can it?> >>>>> >>>> John> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> No virus found in this outgoing message.> >>>> Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 -> >>>> Release Date: 12/26/2008> >>>> 1:01 PM> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________> >>>> Writers Division web site:> >>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org> >>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>> >>>>> >>>> stylist mailing list> >>>> stylist at nfbnet.org> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for> >>>> stylist:> >>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/penatwork%40epix.ne> >> t> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)> >>>> Database version: 5.11420> >>>> http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)> >>> Database version: 5.11420> >>> http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________> >>> Writers Division web site:> >>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org> >>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>> >>>> >>> stylist mailing list> >>> stylist at nfbnet.org> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for> >>> stylist:> >>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/jbron%40optonline.n> >> et> >>>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________> >> Writers Division web site:> >> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org > >> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>> >>> >> stylist mailing list> >> stylist at nfbnet.org> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for> >> stylist:> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/johnlee%40clarktouc> >> h.com> >>> >> No virus found in this incoming message.> >> Checked by AVG.> >> Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date:> >> 12/26/2008> >> 1:01 PM> >>> >>> >> No virus found in this outgoing message.> >> Checked by AVG.> >> Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date:> >> 12/26/2008> >> 1:01 PM> >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________> >> Writers Division web site:> >> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org > >> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>> >>> >> stylist mailing list> >> stylist at nfbnet.org> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for> >> stylist:> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/jbron%40optonline.n> > et> >> >> > _______________________________________________> > Writers Division web site:> > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>> >> > stylist mailing list> > stylist at nfbnet.org> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for> > stylist:> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/johnlee%40clarktouc> > h.com> >> > No virus found in this incoming message.> > Checked by AVG.> > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date: > > 12/26/2008> > 1:01 PM> >> >> > No virus found in this outgoing message.> > Checked by AVG.> > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date: > > 12/26/2008> > 1:01 PM> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________> > Writers Division web site:> > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>> >> > stylist mailing list> > stylist at nfbnet.org> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > stylist:> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/jbron%40optonline.net > > > _______________________________________________> Writers Division web site:> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>> > stylist mailing list> stylist at nfbnet.org> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for stylist:> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/jkforbis%40hotmail.com
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