[stylist] A New Member

Sun Dec 28 06:20:18 UTC 2008

Jamie, Perhaps it is in the gray area for this list, but it is not off 
topic.  We were talking about the services in New York.  Judith
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jamie Forbis" <jkforbis at hotmail.com>
To: <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member


>
> Um, is this really on topic for this list?> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 
> 22:26:43 -0500> From: jbron at optonline.net> To: stylist at nfbnet.org> 
> Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member> > I don't think I'm going to stir 
> things up John, New York state doesn't stir > well. They are happy living 
> in their narrow world training people to > perform jobs that are beneath 
> blind professionals who work in their > bureaucracy.> ----- Original 
> Message ----- > From: "John Lee Clark" <johnlee at clarktouch.com>> To: 
> "'NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>> Sent: 
> Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:46 PM> Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member> 
>  > > > Judith:> >> > But blind people can drive to their clients! It is 
> pure discrimination > > when> > the state services brass demand that they 
> be able to drive in a specific> > manner and style or otherwise stay out. 
> I am shocked that the reason all > > of> > your counselors are sighted is 
> because they fit the narrow definition of> > fulfilling their duties
> that eliminate blind people frorm the same jobs.> > This is totally 
> unacceptable, and all legal measures should be undertaken > > to> > 
> abolish such unethical practices!> >> > In my father's case, he is a top 
> administrator in the state of Minnesota's> > Division Serving the Deaf, 
> Hard of Hearing, and DeafBlind in the > > Department> > of Human Services. 
> He is deafblind and heads the DeafBlind Services > > branch.> > Part of 
> his job description is to travel to clients and branch offices sto> > 
> check on his subordinates. He does this just fine. Maybe it's not in the> 
>  > same manner as some other employees, who get a state car and sit behind 
>  > > the> > wheel, but so what? He still goes places, shows up on time, and 
> does his> > job.> >> > What state do you live in? I've got this burning 
> desire to go over there> > and stir things up!> >> > John, with smoke 
> whitsling from his ears> >> >> >> >> >> > -----Original Message-----> > 
> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnetorg] On> > Behalf Of Judith Bron> > Sent: 
> Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:40 PM> > To: NFBnet Writer's Division 
> Mailing List> > Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member> >> > Every counsellor 
> I've had with the commission for the blind has been> > sighted. They are 
> required to drive to their clients. Obviously blind> > people cannot fill 
> these roles. However, in teaching blind people to use> > adaptive 
> equipment blind individuals do this in facilities for the blind. > > I> >> 
>  > work with other handicaps, mostly mental disabilities, but have never > 
>  > worked> >> > with a blind person in rehabilitation. Yes, we have a blind 
> governor in > > New> >> > York State but he doesn't use adaptive 
> equipment,, walk with a white cane > > or> >> > read braille. I just keep 
> forging ahead with my own thing. Judith> > ----- Original Message ----- > 
>  > From: "John Lee Clark" <johnlee at clarktouch.com>> > To: "'NFBnet Writer's 
> Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>> > Sent:
> Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:58 PM> > Subject: Re: [stylist] A New 
> Member> >> >> >> Judith:> >>> >> Deafness is an invisible to most. Deaf 
> people can spot a deaf person a> >> mile> >> away with the way their eyes 
> move, but most hearing people don't know> >> anything until they'[re 
> spoken to but don't respond, or if they see them> >> signing.> >>> >> 
> Blindness is more visible, certainly.> >>> >> But more accepted? Maybe as 
> objects of sexual desire, but other than> >> that,> >> there's this 
> difference in language. Blind people speak the same > >> language> >> with 
> the mainstream. For this reason, I think blind people have greater> >> 
> potential for employment. However, blind unemployment is far higher than> 
>  >> deaf unemployment.> >>> >> I think blind people are in higher 
> positions, but deaf people have more> >> jobs, just not as many in very 
> high positions. There are several> >> "industries" suited especially for 
> deaf people. One is the ASL teaching> >> industry. As the second most
> popular foreign language and the fastest> >> growing, there are more than 
> twenty thousand ASL teachers in the country.> >> This industry includes 
> performers for ASL videos, writers of ASL> >> textbooks,> >> tutors, etc. 
> Then there is the relay services industry. Text relay,> >> CapTel, and 
> most popular, video relay. This is a multi-billion dollar> >> industry and 
> employs many deaf people in administration, training, and> >> marketing. A 
> third source of employment is working for the states, for> >> departments 
> of human services and commissions and social work and also> >> teaching in 
> the state schools for the deaf. You understand, most > >> services> >> 
> provided to the deaf are provided by deaf people, too. Not many hearing> 
>  >> people are capable or qualified to teach deaf children, give 
> counseling,> >> train, whatever.> >>> >> But outside of these areas and 
> other smaller businesses geared toward the> >> deaf, they don't have much 
> headway. We don't have a deaf judge or a deaf> >>
> governor, but you've got blind people in those positions.> >>> >> I may be 
> wrong but low blind employment may have to do with the fact > >> blind> >> 
> people are not required for meeting the needs of or providing services to> 
>  >> the blind. Maybe you've got a good source of employment in vocational> 
>  >> rehabilitation, but to me, it seems there are way too many sighted> >> 
> teachers,> >> trainers, counselors, and technicians that work with blind 
> people. And > >> is> >> the fact that blindness is a great deal with SSDI 
> a factor for the high> >> unemployment? Deaf people can only earn up to 
> eight hundred dollars per> >> month if they want to keep their SSDI, 
> whereas blind people can earn up > >> to> >> twice that. So it is more in 
> the interest for the deaf to seek full time> >> jobs and less in the 
> interest for the blind to do the same.> >>> >> What do you think?> >>> >> 
> John> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -----Original Message-----> >> 
> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On> >> Behalf Of Judith Bron> >> Sent: 
> Saturday, December 27, 2008 5:16 PM> >> To: NFBnet Writer's Division 
> Mailing List> >> Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member> >>> >> Could it be 
> that deafness is more acceptable than blindness is that deaf> >> people 
> don't look different? In many cases the blind person's eyes look> >> 
> different from the sighted person's eyes. Judith> >> ----- Original 
> Message ----- > >> From: "Donna Hill" <penatwork at epix.net>> >> To: "NFBnet 
> Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>> >> Sent: Friday, 
> December 26, 2008 6:45 PM> >> Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member> >>> >>> 
>  >>> John,> >>> I understand your perspective and I am writing a novel with 
> a blind> >>> character, but having grown up trying to be sighted and being 
> taught to> >>> be> >>> >>> sighted, I have information from that world as 
> well and have written > >>> some> >>> fiction with non blind characters, 
> simply to avoid having the story be> >>> about
> blindness, when the real point is more complicated as well as> >>> 
> universal.> >>>> >>> I also can't help wondering, especially reading this 
> particular post,> >>> about the difference between the blind and deaf 
> communities. If the> >>> blind> >>> >>> community were as large, 
> independent and self-integrated as the deaf> >>> community and if 
> blindness were as socially acceptable as deafness --> >>> i.e., Marly 
> Maitlin is a superstar and the only blind woman anyone knows> >>> is Helen 
> Keller who died over fifty years ago, well, perhaps there would> >>> be a 
> market for blindness-related literature.> >>> Donna> >>>> >>> -- > >>> For 
> my bio & to hear clips from The Last Straw:> >>> 
> http://cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill> >>>> >>> Apple I-Tunes> >>>> >>> 
> phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=259244374> 
>  >>>> >>> Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind> 
>  >>> www.padnfb.org> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> John Lee Clark wrote:> 
>  >>>> Shelley:> >>>>> >>>>
> Aside from my six-year run as publisher of my own publishing operation,> 
>  >>>> I> >>>> have been involved in the publishing world for twelve years. 
> I've> >>>> worked> >>>> with many, many writers, about half of them 
> hearing sighted and the> >>>> other> >>>> deaf sighted with a few 
> deafblind. While the quality of the writing> >>>> always> >>>> plays a 
> role in whether or not something gets published, the deaf> >>>> writers'> 
>  >>>> writing from the deaf perspective is always, always an advantage.> 
>  >>>>> >>>> No, I don't mean one needs to make a conscious effort to write 
> "about"> >>>> being> >>>> deaf, in the didactic sense. Just write about 
> life--love, crime,> >>>> family,> >>>> whatever--but through deaf eyes, 
> drawing from the deaf writer's own> >>>> observations and sensations. Ha 
> Jin, the well-known writer, made the> >>>> point> >>>> in his latest book 
> that there are too many writers who write about > >>>> stuff> >>>> they 
> learned in a secondhand fashion, and readers can pick it up,
> even> >>>> though they may not be conscious. The writer's describing his 
> or her> >>>> own> >>>> genuine observations and experiences for the 
> purpose of describing> >>>> things> >>> >>>> is> >>>> very important and 
> lends the work with an aura of, a vibe exuding> >>>> authenticity.> >>>>> 
>  >>>> So that's one benefit of writing exactly what you know. Another boon 
>  > >>>> to> >>>> any> >>>> writer is any type of outsiderhood. If you look 
> back on the annals of> >>>> literature, those who are "different" from the 
> establishment population> >>>> but> >>>> don't write from that different 
> perspective don't get published often,> >>>> or> >>> >>>> if> >>>> they 
> do, their work wears off quickly and they are forgotten. Take the> >>>> 
> example of Thomas Caldwell, who was deaf, but wrote as if he wasn't.> >>>> 
> Who> >>>> knows him now? Or take Richard Wright, a wonderful and 
> groundbreaking> >>>> African American writer. All of his books are still 
> in print, except> >>>> one,> >>>> and that was the only
> book he wrote about only white people.> >>>>> >>>> You understand, there 
> are tens of thousands sighted people writing and> >>>> trying to get 
> published. So I cannot imagine any use in adding more of> >>>> the> >>>> 
> same types of material to that pot. There are only a limited number of> 
>  >>>> genres and plots, and they all have been done over and over again. 
> But> >>>> if> >>>> you're blind, and you're privileged to have different 
> sensations and a> >>>> different touch in your observations, that's quite 
> a blessing and will> >>>> help> >>>> your work stand out amidst the awful 
> racket of the same old, same old> >>>> that> >>>> editors endure reading 
> through week after week.> >>>>> >>>> Now, my deaf writer friends, they all 
> have found their most important> >>>> and> >>>> rewarding publishing 
> credits through their deaf material. Many of > >>>> them,> >>>> before 
> they started workring with me, wrote only mainstream stuff,> >>>> 
> thinking> >>>> they would have a better chance. Not so. Take
> Raymond Luczak: He has> >>>> written over forty plays, but only twelve 
> with deaf characters.> >>>> Thirteen> >>> >>>> of> >>>> his plays have 
> been produced. All twelve deaf plays and one not make > >>>> up> >>>> the> 
>  >>>> thirteen, leaving the rest of his "hearing" plays still collecting > 
>  >>>> dust.> >>>> He> >>>> has written four novels, only one with deaf 
> characters. No surprise:> >>>> The> >>>> three mainstream works remain 
> unpublished and the deaf one won a> >>>> prestigious> >>>> fellowship and 
> also a national first-novel contest and will be coming> >>>> out> >>>> 
> soon. Raymond's "hearing" stuff is good and worthy of publication, but> 
>  >>>> the> >>>> problem is that there are so many equally good stuff these 
> days, > >>>> because> >>>> there are so many well-trained writers from all 
> those MFA programs.> >>>> Those> >>>> who get published are the ones with 
> unique voices, original twists, or> >>>> those> >>>> who bring to the 
> reader authentic tastes of different worlds.> >>>>>
> >>>> I once got a story from a good deaf writer. It was about the 
> >>>> Titanic.> >>>> A> >>>> couple gets separated at the end, the woman 
> >>>> rowed away while the man> >>>> sinks> >>>> with the ship. It was 
> >>>> wonderfully researched and detailed. The > >>>> writing> >>>> was> 
> >>>>  >>>> smooth and luminous. In all the fundamental areas, it was a 
> >>>> superb> >>>> story.> >>>> But it was never picked up, and the deaf 
> >>>> writer could not understand > >>>> why> >>>> not, since it was one of 
> >>>> her very best efforts. The reason, of course,> >>>> is> >>>> that the 
> >>>> Titanic as the backdrop for a love story has been done to> >>>> 
> >>>> death.> >>>> It was already worn threadbare even before that movie 
> >>>> with Leo and > >>>> Kate.> >>>> But what if the couple was deaf? They 
> >>>> wake up because of the great> >>>> commotion outside their room 
> >>>> sending vibrations to them. They ask each> >>>> other what's going 
> >>>> on. Outside their room, they see people running.> >>>> They> >>>> try 
> >>>> to get someone to write to them on a notepad, but they're
> all> >>>> panicked.> >>>> So they have to investigate, and gradually, from 
> all the visual> >>>> information,> >>>> they begin to understand. A sailor 
> tries to put the deaf woman in line> >>>> for> >>>> getting on a lifeboat, 
> but she doesn't want to be separated from her> >>>> husband. All sorts of 
> misunderstandings, issues, correctives, etc.> >>>> occur.> >>>> And at the 
> end, a twist on the classic separation thing: The deaf woman> >>>> decides 
> to sink with her husband, so strong is their bond with each> >>>> other> 
>  >>> >>>> as> >>>> they come from a small community and the deaf woman 
> cannot imagine> >>>> venturing> >>>> out on her own amidst all those 
> hearing strangers.> >>>> Now, isn't that a much better story? A blind 
> couple on the Titanic> >>>> would> >>>> likewise be much better than the 
> mainstream version and would > >>>> definitely> >>>> stand out!> >>>>> 
>  >>>> Incidentally, some of the hearing writers I've worked with but who 
> have> >>>> connectins to the Deaf world, they also
> have found greater success in> >>>> publishing their work relating to the 
> Deaf world as opposed to their> >>>> more> >>>> mainstream fare. Take 
> Morgan Grayce Willow, an ASL interpreter. Her> >>>> biggest book credit is 
> her work on interpreting. Her most prestigious> >>>> magazine credit is 
> for her essay "Double Language," about her> >>>> experiences> >>> >>>> as> 
>  >>>> an interpreter. She has published other stuff, but with much more> 
>  >>>> difficulty and less compensation. Or take Pia Taavila, a wonderful > 
>  >>>> poet> >>>> and> >>>> professor of English, who is the daughter of 
> deaf parents, or a CODA as> >>>> we> >>>> call people like her--Children 
> of Deaf Adults. She has written both> >>>> mainstream stuff and stuff 
> having to do with her upbringing in a Deaf> >>>> home> >>>> and her 
> continued link with the Deaf community. You guessed it again:> >>>> Her> 
>  >>>> Deaf-related poems are more readily published and get higher praise.> 
>  >>>>> >>>> It is not that they can't get published
> without the deaf material. > >>>> They> >>>> can> >>>> and have. But it is 
> against greater, much greater odds that they do.> >>>> Here> >>>> and 
> there, they are able to be heard, able to be distinguished from the> >>>> 
> rest> >>>> clamoring for the same editor's attention. And it's not that 
> writing> >>>> from a> >>>> different perspective will automatically get 
> you published. The > >>>> writing> >>>> still has to be good. But it is a 
> huge advantage in arresting the> >>>> editor's> >>>> attention, curiosity, 
> and interest.> >>>>> >>>> I don't know how the deaf writers could possibly 
> try to write > >>>> mainstream> >>>> stuff, or how you could avoid writing 
> as a blind writer, but I never> >>>> could,> >>>> never wanted to. It 
> feels fake and contrived to me. It would take too> >>>> much> >>>> effort 
> to pretend, to write about auditory things I never heard, to> >>>> write> 
>  >>>> visual descriptions of what I have never seen. I am of the opinion > 
>  >>>> that> >>>> "'catering" to the
> mainstream audience is self-defeating, because there> >>>> are> >>>> many 
> writers that produce mainstream stuff and it's not like they're> >>>> 
> "catering" but they're genuine because they ARE mainstream. I have> >>>> 
> always> >>>> written straight from who and what I am. And I am not 
> complaining > >>>> about> >>>> my> >>>> inability to write mainstream 
> stuff because I've been published in> >>>> POETRY> >>>> magazine twice, 
> while there are thousands of poets who can only dream> >>>> about> >>>> 
> ever getting there; I've been published in McSWEENEY'S, America's most> 
>  >>>> hip> >>>> literary journal; I've won all those awards; my work has 
> been broadcast> >>>> on> >>>> radio, including on the "Poem of the Day" 
> program on Martha Stewart; > >>>> I'm> >>>> being interviewed by someone 
> from The New Yorker right now; I've been a> >>>> featured poet at an 
> international cultural arts festival, flown there> >>>> first-class and 
> with all expenses paid . . . so I guess I must be> >>>> doing> >>>>
> something right.> >>>>> >>>> No, that was not to brag at all. That was 
> purely to make my point, to> >>>> make> >>>> my case for writing from a 
> different angle, and to encourage you and> >>>> others> >>>> to try doing 
> that. Hey, it can't hurt to try, can it?> >>>>> >>>> John> >>>>> >>>>> 
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