[stylist] A New Member

Sun Dec 28 04:45:28 UTC 2008

The notion of having a "blind college" seems to be a mixed bag at 
best, to me.  It smacks of segregation, the blind ghetto, and doesn't 
seem like progress to me.  We have to live in a sighted world, so 
that sort of segregation is only putting off the inevitable.

I understand, for whatever it is worth, that the deaf marry within 
their own community more then any other disability group.  I presume 
it is a communication thing.  While deaf persons "appear" to be more 
"normal" than blind persons, the communication thing is a huge barrier.

Dave

At 09:07 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote:
>Yeah, there are blind counselors.
>
>But my previous point was that, in the deaf community, the employment of
>deaf people is absolutely necessary in many, many fields.  Take group homes
>for mentally ill deaf people.  Having deaf residential staff and social
>workers is an absolute requirement.  Only very, very few hearing people are
>capable.  Or take marketing a new videophone model to deaf consumers.  I am
>willing to bet that one hundred percent of the marketing staff at all the
>video relay services companies are deaf.  Deaf people can tell right off if
>you're hearing, and that makies it automatically harder to sell.
>
>But it seems to me in the blind fields, not many of them are controlled
>through and through by blind people themselves.  Let me ask you: Why not?
>
>The deaf community also has four colleges predominatly populated by deaf
>students.  As far as I know, there is no college that is all blind or even
>mostly blind.  Why not?  Wouldn't it be cool if there was one?
>
>I don't know if this is true, but I recall my deafblind friend Rod Macdonald
>joking that his local blind chapter should be called the Association of
>Vending Machine Operators.  I gather that most of its members, if they have
>a job, work in the vending machine industry.  Is this the number one
>employer of blind people?  If not, what is?
>
>The number one source of employment for deafblind people is their own
>language, ASL.  So they have a very safe hold on that!
>
>As for deafblind people, the unemployment is unbelievably high.  But things
>are slowly changing as the telecommunications industry opens up to them.
>
>John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of David Andrews
>Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:51 PM
>To: NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
>
>We have blind rehab counselors in Minnesota.  We provide them with
>drivers, as needed, a reasonable accommodation.  They are only in the
>field part of the time, so providing the drivers isn't a big deal.
>
>There have been blind counselors for a long time, and if New York has
>none, something is really wrong.
>
>Dave
>
>At 06:40 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote:
> >Every counsellor I've had with the commission for the blind has been
> >sighted.  They are required to drive to their clients.  Obviously
> >blind people cannot fill these roles.  However, in teaching blind
> >people to use adaptive equipment blind individuals do this in
> >facilities for the blind.  I work with other handicaps, mostly
> >mental disabilities, but have never worked with a blind person in
> >rehabilitation.  Yes, we have a blind governor in New York State but
> >he doesn't use adaptive equipment,, walk with a white cane or read
> >braille.  I just keep forging ahead with my own thing.  Judith
> >----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lee Clark"
><johnlee at clarktouch.com>
> >To: "'NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> >Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:58 PM
> >Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
> >
> >
> >>Judith:
> >>
> >>Deafness is an invisible to most.  Deaf people can spot a deaf person a
>mile
> >>away with the way their eyes move, but most hearing people don't know
> >>anything until they'[re spoken to but don't respond, or if they see them
> >>signing.
> >>
> >>Blindness is more visible, certainly.
> >>
> >>But more accepted?  Maybe as objects of sexual desire, but other than
>that,
> >>there's this difference in language.  Blind people speak the same language
> >>with the mainstream.  For this reason, I think blind people have greater
> >>potential for employment.  However, blind unemployment is far higher than
> >>deaf unemployment.
> >>
> >>I think blind people are in higher positions, but deaf people have more
> >>jobs, just not as many in very high positions.  There are several
> >>"industries" suited especially for deaf people.  One is the ASL teaching
> >>industry.  As the second most popular foreign language and the fastest
> >>growing, there are more than twenty thousand ASL teachers in the country.
> >>This industry includes performers for ASL videos, writers of ASL
>textbooks,
> >>tutors, etc.  Then there is the relay services industry.  Text relay,
> >>CapTel, and most popular, video relay.  This is a multi-billion dollar
> >>industry and employs many deaf people in administration, training, and
> >>marketing.  A third source of employment is working for the states, for
> >>departments of human services and commissions and social work and also
> >>teaching in the state schools for the deaf.  You understand, most services
> >>provided to the deaf are provided by deaf people, too.  Not many hearing
> >>people are capable or qualified to teach deaf children, give counseling,
> >>train, whatever.
> >>
> >>But outside of these areas and other smaller businesses geared toward the
> >>deaf, they don't have much headway.  We don't have a deaf judge or a deaf
> >>governor, but you've got blind people in those positions.
> >>
> >>I may be wrong but low blind employment may have to do with the fact blind
> >>people are not required for meeting the needs of or providing services to
> >>the blind.  Maybe you've got a good source of employment in vocational
> >>rehabilitation, but to me, it seems there are way too many sighted
>teachers,
> >>trainers, counselors, and technicians that work with blind people.  And is
> >>the fact that blindness is a great deal with SSDI a factor for the high
> >>unemployment?  Deaf people can only earn up to eight hundred dollars per
> >>month if they want to keep their SSDI, whereas blind people can earn up to
> >>twice that.  So it is more in the interest for the deaf to seek full time
> >>jobs and less in the interest for the blind to do the same.
> >>
> >>What do you think?
> >>
> >>John
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >>Behalf Of Judith Bron
> >>Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 5:16 PM
> >>To: NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List
> >>Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
> >>
> >>Could it be that deafness is more acceptable than blindness is that deaf
> >>people don't look different?  In many cases the blind person's eyes look
> >>different from the sighted person's eyes.  Judith
> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Donna Hill" <penatwork at epix.net>
> >>To: "NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> >>Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 6:45 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
> >>
> >>
> >>>John,
> >>>I understand your perspective and I am writing a novel with a blind
> >>>character, but having grown up trying to be sighted and being taught to
>be
> >>
> >>>sighted, I have information from that world as well and have written some
> >>>fiction with non blind characters, simply to avoid having the story be
> >>>about blindness, when the real point is more complicated as well as
> >>>universal.
> >>>
> >>>I also can't help wondering, especially reading this particular post,
> >>>about the difference between the blind and deaf communities.  If the
>blind
> >>
> >>>community were as large, independent and self-integrated as the deaf
> >>>community and if blindness were as socially acceptable as deafness --
> >>>i.e., Marly Maitlin is a superstar and the only blind woman anyone knows
> >>>is Helen Keller who died over fifty years ago, well, perhaps there would
> >>>be a market for blindness-related literature.
> >>>Donna
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>For my bio & to hear clips from The Last Straw:
> >>>http://cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill
> >>>
> >>>Apple I-Tunes
> >>>
> >>>phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=259244374
> >>>
> >>>Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> >>>www.padnfb.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>John Lee Clark wrote:
> >>>>Shelley:
> >>>>
> >>>>Aside from my six-year run as publisher of my own publishing operation,
>I
> >>>>have been involved in the publishing world for twelve years.  I've
>worked
> >>>>with many, many writers, about half of them hearing sighted and the
>other
> >>>>deaf sighted with a few deafblind.  While the quality of the writing
> >>>>always
> >>>>plays a role in whether or not something gets published, the deaf
> >>>>writers'
> >>>>writing from the deaf perspective is always, always an advantage.
> >>>>
> >>>>No, I don't mean one needs to make a conscious effort to write "about"
> >>>>being
> >>>>deaf, in the didactic sense.  Just write about life--love, crime,
>family,
> >>>>whatever--but through deaf eyes, drawing from the deaf writer's own
> >>>>observations and sensations.  Ha Jin, the well-known writer, made the
> >>>>point
> >>>>in his latest book that there are too many writers who write about stuff
> >>>>they learned in a secondhand fashion, and readers can pick it up, even
> >>>>though they may not be conscious.  The writer's describing his or her
>own
> >>>>genuine observations and experiences for the purpose of describing
>things
> >>
> >>>>is
> >>>>very important and lends the work with an aura of, a vibe exuding
> >>>>authenticity.
> >>>>
> >>>>So that's one benefit of writing exactly what you know.  Another boon to
> >>>>any
> >>>>writer is any type of outsiderhood.  If you look back on the annals of
> >>>>literature, those who are "different" from the establishment population
> >>>>but
> >>>>don't write from that different perspective don't get published often,
>or
> >>
> >>>>if
> >>>>they do, their work wears off quickly and they are forgotten.  Take the
> >>>>example of Thomas Caldwell, who was deaf, but wrote as if he wasn't. Who
> >>>>knows him now?  Or take Richard Wright, a wonderful and groundbreaking
> >>>>African American writer.  All of his books are still in print, except
> >>>>one,
> >>>>and that was the only book he wrote about only white people.
> >>>>
> >>>>You understand, there are tens of thousands sighted people writing and
> >>>>trying to get published.  So I cannot imagine any use in adding more of
> >>>>the
> >>>>same types of material to that pot.  There are only a limited number of
> >>>>genres and plots, and they all have been done over and over again.  But
> >>>>if
> >>>>you're blind, and you're privileged to have different sensations and a
> >>>>different touch in your observations, that's quite a blessing and will
> >>>>help
> >>>>your work stand out amidst the awful racket of the same old, same old
> >>>>that
> >>>>editors endure reading through week after week.
> >>>>
> >>>>Now, my deaf writer friends, they all have found their most important
>and
> >>>>rewarding publishing credits through their deaf material.  Many of them,
> >>>>before they started workring with me, wrote only mainstream stuff,
> >>>>thinking
> >>>>they would have a better chance.  Not so.  Take Raymond Luczak: He has
> >>>>written over forty plays, but only twelve with deaf characters. Thirteen
> >>
> >>>>of
> >>>>his plays have been produced.  All twelve deaf plays and one not make up
> >>>>the
> >>>>thirteen, leaving the rest of his "hearing" plays still collecting dust.
> >>>>He
> >>>>has written four novels, only one with deaf characters.  No surprise:
>The
> >>>>three mainstream works remain unpublished and the deaf one won a
> >>>>prestigious
> >>>>fellowship and also a national first-novel contest and will be coming
>out
> >>>>soon.  Raymond's "hearing" stuff is good and worthy of publication, but
> >>>>the
> >>>>problem is that there are so many equally good stuff these days, because
> >>>>there are so many well-trained writers from all those MFA programs.
> >>>>Those
> >>>>who get published are the ones with unique voices, original twists, or
> >>>>those
> >>>>who bring to the reader authentic tastes of different worlds.
> >>>>
> >>>>I once got a story from a good deaf writer.  It was about the Titanic. A
> >>>>couple gets separated at the end, the woman rowed away while the man
> >>>>sinks
> >>>>with the ship.  It was wonderfully researched and detailed.  The writing
> >>>>was
> >>>>smooth and luminous.  In all the fundamental areas, it was a superb
> >>>>story.
> >>>>But it was never picked up, and the deaf writer could not understand why
> >>>>not, since it was one of her very best efforts.  The reason, of course,
> >>>>is
> >>>>that the Titanic as the backdrop for a love story has been done to
>death.
> >>>>It was already worn threadbare even before that movie with Leo and Kate.
> >>>>But what if the couple was deaf?  They wake up because of the great
> >>>>commotion outside their room sending vibrations to them.  They ask each
> >>>>other what's going on.  Outside their room, they see people running.
> >>>>They
> >>>>try to get someone to write to them on a notepad, but they're all
> >>>>panicked.
> >>>>So they have to investigate, and gradually, from all the visual
> >>>>information,
> >>>>they begin to understand.  A sailor tries to put the deaf woman in line
> >>>>for
> >>>>getting on a lifeboat, but she doesn't want to be separated from her
> >>>>husband.  All sorts of misunderstandings, issues, correctives, etc.
> >>>>occur.
> >>>>And at the end, a twist on the classic separation thing: The deaf woman
> >>>>decides to sink with her husband, so strong is their bond with each
>other
> >>
> >>>>as
> >>>>they come from a small community and the deaf woman cannot imagine
> >>>>venturing
> >>>>out on her own amidst all those hearing strangers.
> >>>>Now, isn't that a much better story?  A blind couple on the Titanic
>would
> >>>>likewise be much better than the mainstream version and would definitely
> >>>>stand out!
> >>>>
> >>>>Incidentally, some of the hearing writers I've worked with but who have
> >>>>connectins to the Deaf world, they also have found greater success in
> >>>>publishing their work relating to the Deaf world as opposed to their
>more
> >>>>mainstream fare.  Take Morgan Grayce Willow, an ASL interpreter.  Her
> >>>>biggest book credit is her work on interpreting.  Her most prestigious
> >>>>magazine credit is for her essay "Double Language," about her
>experiences
> >>
> >>>>as
> >>>>an interpreter.  She has published other stuff, but with much more
> >>>>difficulty and less compensation.  Or take Pia Taavila, a wonderful poet
> >>>>and
> >>>>professor of English, who is the daughter of deaf parents, or a CODA as
> >>>>we
> >>>>call people like her--Children of Deaf Adults.  She has written both
> >>>>mainstream stuff and stuff having to do with her upbringing in a Deaf
> >>>>home
> >>>>and her continued link with the Deaf community.  You guessed it again:
> >>>>Her
> >>>>Deaf-related poems are more readily published and get higher praise.
> >>>>
> >>>>It is not that they can't get published without the deaf material.  They
> >>>>can
> >>>>and have.  But it is against greater, much greater odds that they do.
> >>>>Here
> >>>>and there, they are able to be heard, able to be distinguished from the
> >>>>rest
> >>>>clamoring for the same editor's attention.  And it's not that writing
> >>>>from a
> >>>>different perspective will automatically get you published.  The writing
> >>>>still has to be good.  But it is a huge advantage in arresting the
> >>>>editor's
> >>>>attention, curiosity, and interest.
> >>>>
> >>>>I don't know how the deaf writers could possibly try to write mainstream
> >>>>stuff, or how you could avoid writing as a blind writer, but I never
> >>>>could,
> >>>>never wanted to.  It feels fake and contrived to me.  It would take too
> >>>>much
> >>>>effort to pretend, to write about auditory things I never heard, to
>write
> >>>>visual descriptions of what I have never seen.  I am of the opinion that
> >>>>"'catering" to the mainstream audience is self-defeating, because there
> >>>>are
> >>>>many writers that produce mainstream stuff and it's not like they're
> >>>>"catering" but they're genuine because they ARE mainstream.  I have
> >>>>always
> >>>>written straight from who and what I am.  And I am not complaining about
> >>>>my
> >>>>inability to write mainstream stuff because I've been published in
>POETRY
> >>>>magazine twice, while there are thousands of poets who can only dream
> >>>>about
> >>>>ever getting there; I've been published in McSWEENEY'S, America's most
> >>>>hip
> >>>>literary journal; I've won all those awards; my work has been broadcast
> >>>>on
> >>>>radio, including on the "Poem of the Day" program on Martha Stewart; I'm
> >>>>being interviewed by someone from The New Yorker right now; I've been a
> >>>>featured poet at an international cultural arts festival, flown there
> >>>>first-class and with all expenses paid . . .   so I guess I must be
>doing
> >>>>something right.
> >>>>
> >>>>No, that was not to brag at all.  That was purely to make my point, to
> >>>>make
> >>>>my case for writing from a different angle, and to encourage you and
> >>>>others
> >>>>to try doing that.  Hey, it can't hurt to try, can it?
> >>>>
> >>>>John
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>>1:01 PM
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>_______________________________________________
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