[stylist] A New Member

Sun Dec 28 19:04:16 UTC 2008

I should think that anything which gets people talking and is relevant to
blindness is on topic for a writers' list, since the subjects about which we
can write passionately are limitless. Since you seem to disagree with me
Jamie, any ideas?   

-----Original Message-----
From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Jamie Forbis
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:20 PM
To: stylist at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member

Um, is this really on topic for this list?> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:26:43
-0500> From: jbron at optonline.net> To: stylist at nfbnet.org> Subject: Re:
[stylist] A New Member> > I don't think I'm going to stir things up John,
New York state doesn't stir > well. They are happy living in their narrow
world training people to > perform jobs that are beneath blind professionals
who work in their > bureaucracy.> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John
Lee Clark" <johnlee at clarktouch.com>> To: "'NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing
List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>> Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:46 PM>
Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member> > > > Judith:> >> > But blind people
can drive to their clients! It is pure discrimination > > when> > the state
services brass demand that they be able to drive in a specific> > manner and
style or otherwise stay out. I am shocked that the reason all > > of> > your
counselors are sighted is because they fit the narrow definition of> >
fulfilling their d  uties that eliminate blind people frorm the same jobs.>
> This is totally unacceptable, and all legal measures should be undertaken
> > to> > abolish such unethical practices!> >> > In my father's case, he is
a top administrator in the state of Minnesota's> > Division Serving the
Deaf, Hard of Hearing, and DeafBlind in the > > Department> > of Human
Services. He is deafblind and heads the DeafBlind Services > > branch.> >
Part of his job description is to travel to clients and branch offices sto>
> check on his subordinates. He does this just fine. Maybe it's not in the>
> same manner as some other employees, who get a state car and sit behind >
> the> > wheel, but so what? He still goes places, shows up on time, and
does his> > job.> >> > What state do you live in? I've got this burning
desire to go over there> > and stir things up!> >> > John, with smoke
whitsling from his ears> >> >> >> >> >> > -----Original Message-----> >
From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist  -bounces at nfbnet.org] On> >
Behalf Of Judith Bron> > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:40 PM> > To:
NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List> > Subject: Re: [stylist] A New
Member> >> > Every counsellor I've had with the commission for the blind has
been> > sighted. They are required to drive to their clients. Obviously
blind> > people cannot fill these roles. However, in teaching blind people
to use> > adaptive equipment blind individuals do this in facilities for the
blind. > > I> >> > work with other handicaps, mostly mental disabilities,
but have never > > worked> >> > with a blind person in rehabilitation. Yes,
we have a blind governor in > > New> >> > York State but he doesn't use
adaptive equipment,, walk with a white cane > > or> >> > read braille. I
just keep forging ahead with my own thing. Judith> > ----- Original Message
----- > > From: "John Lee Clark" <johnlee at clarktouch.com>> > To: "'NFBnet
Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>> > Sent: Saturday,
  December 27, 2008 6:58 PM> > Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member> >> >> >>
Judith:> >>> >> Deafness is an invisible to most. Deaf people can spot a
deaf person a> >> mile> >> away with the way their eyes move, but most
hearing people don't know> >> anything until they'[re spoken to but don't
respond, or if they see them> >> signing.> >>> >> Blindness is more visible,
certainly.> >>> >> But more accepted? Maybe as objects of sexual desire, but
other than> >> that,> >> there's this difference in language. Blind people
speak the same > >> language> >> with the mainstream. For this reason, I
think blind people have greater> >> potential for employment. However, blind
unemployment is far higher than> >> deaf unemployment.> >>> >> I think blind
people are in higher positions, but deaf people have more> >> jobs, just not
as many in very high positions. There are several> >> "industries" suited
especially for deaf people. One is the ASL teaching> >> industry. As the
second most pop  ular foreign language and the fastest> >> growing, there
are more than twenty thousand ASL teachers in the country.> >> This industry
includes performers for ASL videos, writers of ASL> >> textbooks,> >>
tutors, etc. Then there is the relay services industry. Text relay,> >>
CapTel, and most popular, video relay. This is a multi-billion dollar> >>
industry and employs many deaf people in administration, training, and> >>
marketing. A third source of employment is working for the states, for> >>
departments of human services and commissions and social work and also> >>
teaching in the state schools for the deaf. You understand, most > >>
services> >> provided to the deaf are provided by deaf people, too. Not many
hearing> >> people are capable or qualified to teach deaf children, give
counseling,> >> train, whatever.> >>> >> But outside of these areas and
other smaller businesses geared toward the> >> deaf, they don't have much
headway. We don't have a deaf judge or a deaf> >  > governor, but you've got
blind people in those positions.> >>> >> I may be wrong but low blind
employment may have to do with the fact > >> blind> >> people are not
required for meeting the needs of or providing services to> >> the blind.
Maybe you've got a good source of employment in vocational> >>
rehabilitation, but to me, it seems there are way too many sighted> >>
teachers,> >> trainers, counselors, and technicians that work with blind
people. And > >> is> >> the fact that blindness is a great deal with SSDI a
factor for the high> >> unemployment? Deaf people can only earn up to eight
hundred dollars per> >> month if they want to keep their SSDI, whereas blind
people can earn up > >> to> >> twice that. So it is more in the interest for
the deaf to seek full time> >> jobs and less in the interest for the blind
to do the same.> >>> >> What do you think?> >>> >> John> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> >> -----Original Message-----> >> From:
stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mai  lto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On> >>
Behalf Of Judith Bron> >> Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 5:16 PM> >> To:
NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List> >> Subject: Re: [stylist] A New
Member> >>> >> Could it be that deafness is more acceptable than blindness
is that deaf> >> people don't look different? In many cases the blind
person's eyes look> >> different from the sighted person's eyes. Judith> >>
----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Donna Hill" <penatwork at epix.net>>
>> To: "NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>> >>
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 6:45 PM> >> Subject: Re: [stylist] A New
Member> >>> >>> >>> John,> >>> I understand your perspective and I am
writing a novel with a blind> >>> character, but having grown up trying to
be sighted and being taught to> >>> be> >>> >>> sighted, I have information
from that world as well and have written > >>> some> >>> fiction with non
blind characters, simply to avoid having the story be> >>> about bl
indness, when the real point is more complicated as well as> >>> universal.>
>>>> >>> I also can't help wondering, especially reading this particular
post,> >>> about the difference between the blind and deaf communities. If
the> >>> blind> >>> >>> community were as large, independent and
self-integrated as the deaf> >>> community and if blindness were as socially
acceptable as deafness --> >>> i.e., Marly Maitlin is a superstar and the
only blind woman anyone knows> >>> is Helen Keller who died over fifty years
ago, well, perhaps there would> >>> be a market for blindness-related
literature.> >>> Donna> >>>> >>> -- > >>> For my bio & to hear clips from
The Last Straw:> >>> http://cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill> >>>> >>> Apple I-Tunes>
>>>> >>>
phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=259244374>
>>>> >>> Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind>
>>> www.padnfb.org> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> John Lee Clark wrote:> >>>>
Shelley:> >>>>  > >>>> Aside from my six-year run as publisher of my own
publishing operation,> >>>> I> >>>> have been involved in the publishing
world for twelve years. I've> >>>> worked> >>>> with many, many writers,
about half of them hearing sighted and the> >>>> other> >>>> deaf sighted
with a few deafblind. While the quality of the writing> >>>> always> >>>>
plays a role in whether or not something gets published, the deaf> >>>>
writers'> >>>> writing from the deaf perspective is always, always an
advantage.> >>>>> >>>> No, I don't mean one needs to make a conscious effort
to write "about"> >>>> being> >>>> deaf, in the didactic sense. Just write
about life--love, crime,> >>>> family,> >>>> whatever--but through deaf
eyes, drawing from the deaf writer's own> >>>> observations and sensations.
Ha Jin, the well-known writer, made the> >>>> point> >>>> in his latest book
that there are too many writers who write about > >>>> stuff> >>>> they
learned in a secondhand fashion, and readers ca  n pick it up, even> >>>>
though they may not be conscious. The writer's describing his or her> >>>>
own> >>>> genuine observations and experiences for the purpose of
describing> >>>> things> >>> >>>> is> >>>> very important and lends the work
with an aura of, a vibe exuding> >>>> authenticity.> >>>>> >>>> So that's
one benefit of writing exactly what you know. Another boon > >>>> to> >>>>
any> >>>> writer is any type of outsiderhood. If you look back on the annals
of> >>>> literature, those who are "different" from the establishment
population> >>>> but> >>>> don't write from that different perspective don't
get published often,> >>>> or> >>> >>>> if> >>>> they do, their work wears
off quickly and they are forgotten. Take the> >>>> example of Thomas
Caldwell, who was deaf, but wrote as if he wasn't.> >>>> Who> >>>> knows him
now? Or take Richard Wright, a wonderful and groundbreaking> >>>> African
American writer. All of his books are still in print, except> >>>> one,>
>>>>  and that was the only book he wrote about only white people.> >>>>>
>>>> You understand, there are tens of thousands sighted people writing and>
>>>> trying to get published. So I cannot imagine any use in adding more of>
>>>> the> >>>> same types of material to that pot. There are only a limited
number of> >>>> genres and plots, and they all have been done over and over
again. But> >>>> if> >>>> you're blind, and you're privileged to have
different sensations and a> >>>> different touch in your observations,
that's quite a blessing and will> >>>> help> >>>> your work stand out amidst
the awful racket of the same old, same old> >>>> that> >>>> editors endure
reading through week after week.> >>>>> >>>> Now, my deaf writer friends,
they all have found their most important> >>>> and> >>>> rewarding
publishing credits through their deaf material. Many of > >>>> them,> >>>>
before they started workring with me, wrote only mainstream stuff,> >>>>
thinking> >>>> they would have a  better chance. Not so. Take Raymond
Luczak: He has> >>>> written over forty plays, but only twelve with deaf
characters.> >>>> Thirteen> >>> >>>> of> >>>> his plays have been produced.
All twelve deaf plays and one not make > >>>> up> >>>> the> >>>> thirteen,
leaving the rest of his "hearing" plays still collecting > >>>> dust.> >>>>
He> >>>> has written four novels, only one with deaf characters. No
surprise:> >>>> The> >>>> three mainstream works remain unpublished and the
deaf one won a> >>>> prestigious> >>>> fellowship and also a national
first-novel contest and will be coming> >>>> out> >>>> soon. Raymond's
"hearing" stuff is good and worthy of publication, but> >>>> the> >>>>
problem is that there are so many equally good stuff these days, > >>>>
because> >>>> there are so many well-trained writers from all those MFA
programs.> >>>> Those> >>>> who get published are the ones with unique
voices, original twists, or> >>>> those> >>>> who bring to the reader
authentic ta  stes of different worlds.> >>>>> >>>> I once got a story from
a good deaf writer. It was about the Titanic.> >>>> A> >>>> couple gets
separated at the end, the woman rowed away while the man> >>>> sinks> >>>>
with the ship. It was wonderfully researched and detailed. The > >>>>
writing> >>>> was> >>>> smooth and luminous. In all the fundamental areas,
it was a superb> >>>> story.> >>>> But it was never picked up, and the deaf
writer could not understand > >>>> why> >>>> not, since it was one of her
very best efforts. The reason, of course,> >>>> is> >>>> that the Titanic as
the backdrop for a love story has been done to> >>>> death.> >>>> It was
already worn threadbare even before that movie with Leo and > >>>> Kate.>
>>>> But what if the couple was deaf? They wake up because of the great>
>>>> commotion outside their room sending vibrations to them. They ask each>
>>>> other what's going on. Outside their room, they see people running.>
>>>> They> >>>> try to get someone to
  write to them on a notepad, but they're all> >>>> panicked.> >>>> So they
have to investigate, and gradually, from all the visual> >>>> information,>
>>>> they begin to understand. A sailor tries to put the deaf woman in line>
>>>> for> >>>> getting on a lifeboat, but she doesn't want to be separated
from her> >>>> husband. All sorts of misunderstandings, issues, correctives,
etc.> >>>> occur.> >>>> And at the end, a twist on the classic separation
thing: The deaf woman> >>>> decides to sink with her husband, so strong is
their bond with each> >>>> other> >>> >>>> as> >>>> they come from a small
community and the deaf woman cannot imagine> >>>> venturing> >>>> out on her
own amidst all those hearing strangers.> >>>> Now, isn't that a much better
story? A blind couple on the Titanic> >>>> would> >>>> likewise be much
better than the mainstream version and would > >>>> definitely> >>>> stand
out!> >>>>> >>>> Incidentally, some of the hearing writers I've worked with
but who h  ave> >>>> connectins to the Deaf world, they also have found
greater success in> >>>> publishing their work relating to the Deaf world as
opposed to their> >>>> more> >>>> mainstream fare. Take Morgan Grayce
Willow, an ASL interpreter. Her> >>>> biggest book credit is her work on
interpreting. Her most prestigious> >>>> magazine credit is for her essay
"Double Language," about her> >>>> experiences> >>> >>>> as> >>>> an
interpreter. She has published other stuff, but with much more> >>>>
difficulty and less compensation. Or take Pia Taavila, a wonderful > >>>>
poet> >>>> and> >>>> professor of English, who is the daughter of deaf
parents, or a CODA as> >>>> we> >>>> call people like her--Children of Deaf
Adults. She has written both> >>>> mainstream stuff and stuff having to do
with her upbringing in a Deaf> >>>> home> >>>> and her continued link with
the Deaf community. You guessed it again:> >>>> Her> >>>> Deaf-related poems
are more readily published and get higher praise  .> >>>>> >>>> It is not
that they can't get published without the deaf material. > >>>> They> >>>>
can> >>>> and have. But it is against greater, much greater odds that they
do.> >>>> Here> >>>> and there, they are able to be heard, able to be
distinguished from the> >>>> rest> >>>> clamoring for the same editor's
attention. And it's not that writing> >>>> from a> >>>> different
perspective will automatically get you published. The > >>>> writing> >>>>
still has to be good. But it is a huge advantage in arresting the> >>>>
editor's> >>>> attention, curiosity, and interest.> >>>>> >>>> I don't know
how the deaf writers could possibly try to write > >>>> mainstream> >>>>
stuff, or how you could avoid writing as a blind writer, but I never> >>>>
could,> >>>> never wanted to. It feels fake and contrived to me. It would
take too> >>>> much> >>>> effort to pretend, to write about auditory things
I never heard, to> >>>> write> >>>> visual descriptions of what I have never
seen. I a  m of the opinion > >>>> that> >>>> "'catering" to the mainstream
audience is self-defeating, because there> >>>> are> >>>> many writers that
produce mainstream stuff and it's not like they're> >>>> "catering" but
they're genuine because they ARE mainstream. I have> >>>> always> >>>>
written straight from who and what I am. And I am not complaining > >>>>
about> >>>> my> >>>> inability to write mainstream stuff because I've been
published in> >>>> POETRY> >>>> magazine twice, while there are thousands of
poets who can only dream> >>>> about> >>>> ever getting there; I've been
published in McSWEENEY'S, America's most> >>>> hip> >>>> literary journal;
I've won all those awards; my work has been broadcast> >>>> on> >>>> radio,
including on the "Poem of the Day" program on Martha Stewart; > >>>> I'm>
>>>> being interviewed by someone from The New Yorker right now; I've been
a> >>>> featured poet at an international cultural arts festival, flown
there> >>>> first-class and with al  l expenses paid . . . so I guess I must
be> >>>> doing> >>>> something right.> >>>>> >>>> No, that was not to brag
at all. That was purely to make my point, to> >>>> make> >>>> my case for
writing from a different angle, and to encourage you and> >>>> others> >>>>
to try doing that. Hey, it can't hurt to try, can it?> >>>>> >>>> John>
>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> No virus found in this outgoing message.> >>>>
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