[stylist] A New Member
Donna Hill
penatwork at epix.net
Sun Dec 28 19:33:29 UTC 2008
Dave,
I agree. Segregation doesn't work for blind people, nor should it be
expected to.
Donna
--
For my bio & to hear clips from The Last Straw:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill
Apple I-Tunes
phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=259244374
Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind
www.padnfb.org
David Andrews wrote:
> The notion of having a "blind college" seems to be a mixed bag at
> best, to me. It smacks of segregation, the blind ghetto, and doesn't
> seem like progress to me. We have to live in a sighted world, so that
> sort of segregation is only putting off the inevitable.
>
> I understand, for whatever it is worth, that the deaf marry within
> their own community more then any other disability group. I presume
> it is a communication thing. While deaf persons "appear" to be more
> "normal" than blind persons, the communication thing is a huge barrier.
>
> Dave
>
> At 09:07 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote:
>> Yeah, there are blind counselors.
>>
>> But my previous point was that, in the deaf community, the employment of
>> deaf people is absolutely necessary in many, many fields. Take group
>> homes
>> for mentally ill deaf people. Having deaf residential staff and social
>> workers is an absolute requirement. Only very, very few hearing
>> people are
>> capable. Or take marketing a new videophone model to deaf
>> consumers. I am
>> willing to bet that one hundred percent of the marketing staff at all
>> the
>> video relay services companies are deaf. Deaf people can tell right
>> off if
>> you're hearing, and that makies it automatically harder to sell.
>>
>> But it seems to me in the blind fields, not many of them are controlled
>> through and through by blind people themselves. Let me ask you: Why
>> not?
>>
>> The deaf community also has four colleges predominatly populated by deaf
>> students. As far as I know, there is no college that is all blind or
>> even
>> mostly blind. Why not? Wouldn't it be cool if there was one?
>>
>> I don't know if this is true, but I recall my deafblind friend Rod
>> Macdonald
>> joking that his local blind chapter should be called the Association of
>> Vending Machine Operators. I gather that most of its members, if
>> they have
>> a job, work in the vending machine industry. Is this the number one
>> employer of blind people? If not, what is?
>>
>> The number one source of employment for deafblind people is their own
>> language, ASL. So they have a very safe hold on that!
>>
>> As for deafblind people, the unemployment is unbelievably high. But
>> things
>> are slowly changing as the telecommunications industry opens up to them.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of David Andrews
>> Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:51 PM
>> To: NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
>>
>> We have blind rehab counselors in Minnesota. We provide them with
>> drivers, as needed, a reasonable accommodation. They are only in the
>> field part of the time, so providing the drivers isn't a big deal.
>>
>> There have been blind counselors for a long time, and if New York has
>> none, something is really wrong.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> At 06:40 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote:
>> >Every counsellor I've had with the commission for the blind has been
>> >sighted. They are required to drive to their clients. Obviously
>> >blind people cannot fill these roles. However, in teaching blind
>> >people to use adaptive equipment blind individuals do this in
>> >facilities for the blind. I work with other handicaps, mostly
>> >mental disabilities, but have never worked with a blind person in
>> >rehabilitation. Yes, we have a blind governor in New York State but
>> >he doesn't use adaptive equipment,, walk with a white cane or read
>> >braille. I just keep forging ahead with my own thing. Judith
>> >----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lee Clark"
>> <johnlee at clarktouch.com>
>> >To: "'NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> >Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:58 PM
>> >Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
>> >
>> >
>> >>Judith:
>> >>
>> >>Deafness is an invisible to most. Deaf people can spot a deaf
>> person a
>> mile
>> >>away with the way their eyes move, but most hearing people don't know
>> >>anything until they'[re spoken to but don't respond, or if they see
>> them
>> >>signing.
>> >>
>> >>Blindness is more visible, certainly.
>> >>
>> >>But more accepted? Maybe as objects of sexual desire, but other than
>> that,
>> >>there's this difference in language. Blind people speak the same
>> language
>> >>with the mainstream. For this reason, I think blind people have
>> greater
>> >>potential for employment. However, blind unemployment is far
>> higher than
>> >>deaf unemployment.
>> >>
>> >>I think blind people are in higher positions, but deaf people have
>> more
>> >>jobs, just not as many in very high positions. There are several
>> >>"industries" suited especially for deaf people. One is the ASL
>> teaching
>> >>industry. As the second most popular foreign language and the fastest
>> >>growing, there are more than twenty thousand ASL teachers in the
>> country.
>> >>This industry includes performers for ASL videos, writers of ASL
>> textbooks,
>> >>tutors, etc. Then there is the relay services industry. Text relay,
>> >>CapTel, and most popular, video relay. This is a multi-billion dollar
>> >>industry and employs many deaf people in administration, training, and
>> >>marketing. A third source of employment is working for the states,
>> for
>> >>departments of human services and commissions and social work and also
>> >>teaching in the state schools for the deaf. You understand, most
>> services
>> >>provided to the deaf are provided by deaf people, too. Not many
>> hearing
>> >>people are capable or qualified to teach deaf children, give
>> counseling,
>> >>train, whatever.
>> >>
>> >>But outside of these areas and other smaller businesses geared
>> toward the
>> >>deaf, they don't have much headway. We don't have a deaf judge or
>> a deaf
>> >>governor, but you've got blind people in those positions.
>> >>
>> >>I may be wrong but low blind employment may have to do with the
>> fact blind
>> >>people are not required for meeting the needs of or providing
>> services to
>> >>the blind. Maybe you've got a good source of employment in vocational
>> >>rehabilitation, but to me, it seems there are way too many sighted
>> teachers,
>> >>trainers, counselors, and technicians that work with blind people.
>> And is
>> >>the fact that blindness is a great deal with SSDI a factor for the
>> high
>> >>unemployment? Deaf people can only earn up to eight hundred
>> dollars per
>> >>month if they want to keep their SSDI, whereas blind people can
>> earn up to
>> >>twice that. So it is more in the interest for the deaf to seek
>> full time
>> >>jobs and less in the interest for the blind to do the same.
>> >>
>> >>What do you think?
>> >>
>> >>John
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>-----Original Message-----
>> >>From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> >>Behalf Of Judith Bron
>> >>Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 5:16 PM
>> >>To: NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List
>> >>Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
>> >>
>> >>Could it be that deafness is more acceptable than blindness is that
>> deaf
>> >>people don't look different? In many cases the blind person's eyes
>> look
>> >>different from the sighted person's eyes. Judith
>> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Donna Hill" <penatwork at epix.net>
>> >>To: "NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> >>Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 6:45 PM
>> >>Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>John,
>> >>>I understand your perspective and I am writing a novel with a blind
>> >>>character, but having grown up trying to be sighted and being
>> taught to
>> be
>> >>
>> >>>sighted, I have information from that world as well and have
>> written some
>> >>>fiction with non blind characters, simply to avoid having the
>> story be
>> >>>about blindness, when the real point is more complicated as well as
>> >>>universal.
>> >>>
>> >>>I also can't help wondering, especially reading this particular post,
>> >>>about the difference between the blind and deaf communities. If the
>> blind
>> >>
>> >>>community were as large, independent and self-integrated as the deaf
>> >>>community and if blindness were as socially acceptable as deafness --
>> >>>i.e., Marly Maitlin is a superstar and the only blind woman anyone
>> knows
>> >>>is Helen Keller who died over fifty years ago, well, perhaps there
>> would
>> >>>be a market for blindness-related literature.
>> >>>Donna
>> >>>
>> >>>--
>> >>>For my bio & to hear clips from The Last Straw:
>> >>>http://cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill
>> >>>
>> >>>Apple I-Tunes
>> >>>
>> >>>phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=259244374
>>
>> >>>
>> >>>Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>> >>>www.padnfb.org
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>John Lee Clark wrote:
>> >>>>Shelley:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Aside from my six-year run as publisher of my own publishing
>> operation,
>> I
>> >>>>have been involved in the publishing world for twelve years. I've
>> worked
>> >>>>with many, many writers, about half of them hearing sighted and the
>> other
>> >>>>deaf sighted with a few deafblind. While the quality of the writing
>> >>>>always
>> >>>>plays a role in whether or not something gets published, the deaf
>> >>>>writers'
>> >>>>writing from the deaf perspective is always, always an advantage.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>No, I don't mean one needs to make a conscious effort to write
>> "about"
>> >>>>being
>> >>>>deaf, in the didactic sense. Just write about life--love, crime,
>> family,
>> >>>>whatever--but through deaf eyes, drawing from the deaf writer's own
>> >>>>observations and sensations. Ha Jin, the well-known writer, made
>> the
>> >>>>point
>> >>>>in his latest book that there are too many writers who write
>> about stuff
>> >>>>they learned in a secondhand fashion, and readers can pick it up,
>> even
>> >>>>though they may not be conscious. The writer's describing his or
>> her
>> own
>> >>>>genuine observations and experiences for the purpose of describing
>> things
>> >>
>> >>>>is
>> >>>>very important and lends the work with an aura of, a vibe exuding
>> >>>>authenticity.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>So that's one benefit of writing exactly what you know. Another
>> boon to
>> >>>>any
>> >>>>writer is any type of outsiderhood. If you look back on the
>> annals of
>> >>>>literature, those who are "different" from the establishment
>> population
>> >>>>but
>> >>>>don't write from that different perspective don't get published
>> often,
>> or
>> >>
>> >>>>if
>> >>>>they do, their work wears off quickly and they are forgotten.
>> Take the
>> >>>>example of Thomas Caldwell, who was deaf, but wrote as if he
>> wasn't. Who
>> >>>>knows him now? Or take Richard Wright, a wonderful and
>> groundbreaking
>> >>>>African American writer. All of his books are still in print,
>> except
>> >>>>one,
>> >>>>and that was the only book he wrote about only white people.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>You understand, there are tens of thousands sighted people
>> writing and
>> >>>>trying to get published. So I cannot imagine any use in adding
>> more of
>> >>>>the
>> >>>>same types of material to that pot. There are only a limited
>> number of
>> >>>>genres and plots, and they all have been done over and over
>> again. But
>> >>>>if
>> >>>>you're blind, and you're privileged to have different sensations
>> and a
>> >>>>different touch in your observations, that's quite a blessing and
>> will
>> >>>>help
>> >>>>your work stand out amidst the awful racket of the same old, same
>> old
>> >>>>that
>> >>>>editors endure reading through week after week.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Now, my deaf writer friends, they all have found their most
>> important
>> and
>> >>>>rewarding publishing credits through their deaf material. Many
>> of them,
>> >>>>before they started workring with me, wrote only mainstream stuff,
>> >>>>thinking
>> >>>>they would have a better chance. Not so. Take Raymond Luczak:
>> He has
>> >>>>written over forty plays, but only twelve with deaf characters.
>> Thirteen
>> >>
>> >>>>of
>> >>>>his plays have been produced. All twelve deaf plays and one not
>> make up
>> >>>>the
>> >>>>thirteen, leaving the rest of his "hearing" plays still
>> collecting dust.
>> >>>>He
>> >>>>has written four novels, only one with deaf characters. No
>> surprise:
>> The
>> >>>>three mainstream works remain unpublished and the deaf one won a
>> >>>>prestigious
>> >>>>fellowship and also a national first-novel contest and will be
>> coming
>> out
>> >>>>soon. Raymond's "hearing" stuff is good and worthy of
>> publication, but
>> >>>>the
>> >>>>problem is that there are so many equally good stuff these days,
>> because
>> >>>>there are so many well-trained writers from all those MFA programs.
>> >>>>Those
>> >>>>who get published are the ones with unique voices, original
>> twists, or
>> >>>>those
>> >>>>who bring to the reader authentic tastes of different worlds.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I once got a story from a good deaf writer. It was about the
>> Titanic. A
>> >>>>couple gets separated at the end, the woman rowed away while the man
>> >>>>sinks
>> >>>>with the ship. It was wonderfully researched and detailed. The
>> writing
>> >>>>was
>> >>>>smooth and luminous. In all the fundamental areas, it was a superb
>> >>>>story.
>> >>>>But it was never picked up, and the deaf writer could not
>> understand why
>> >>>>not, since it was one of her very best efforts. The reason, of
>> course,
>> >>>>is
>> >>>>that the Titanic as the backdrop for a love story has been done to
>> death.
>> >>>>It was already worn threadbare even before that movie with Leo
>> and Kate.
>> >>>>But what if the couple was deaf? They wake up because of the great
>> >>>>commotion outside their room sending vibrations to them. They
>> ask each
>> >>>>other what's going on. Outside their room, they see people running.
>> >>>>They
>> >>>>try to get someone to write to them on a notepad, but they're all
>> >>>>panicked.
>> >>>>So they have to investigate, and gradually, from all the visual
>> >>>>information,
>> >>>>they begin to understand. A sailor tries to put the deaf woman
>> in line
>> >>>>for
>> >>>>getting on a lifeboat, but she doesn't want to be separated from her
>> >>>>husband. All sorts of misunderstandings, issues, correctives, etc.
>> >>>>occur.
>> >>>>And at the end, a twist on the classic separation thing: The deaf
>> woman
>> >>>>decides to sink with her husband, so strong is their bond with each
>> other
>> >>
>> >>>>as
>> >>>>they come from a small community and the deaf woman cannot imagine
>> >>>>venturing
>> >>>>out on her own amidst all those hearing strangers.
>> >>>>Now, isn't that a much better story? A blind couple on the Titanic
>> would
>> >>>>likewise be much better than the mainstream version and would
>> definitely
>> >>>>stand out!
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Incidentally, some of the hearing writers I've worked with but
>> who have
>> >>>>connectins to the Deaf world, they also have found greater
>> success in
>> >>>>publishing their work relating to the Deaf world as opposed to their
>> more
>> >>>>mainstream fare. Take Morgan Grayce Willow, an ASL interpreter.
>> Her
>> >>>>biggest book credit is her work on interpreting. Her most
>> prestigious
>> >>>>magazine credit is for her essay "Double Language," about her
>> experiences
>> >>
>> >>>>as
>> >>>>an interpreter. She has published other stuff, but with much more
>> >>>>difficulty and less compensation. Or take Pia Taavila, a
>> wonderful poet
>> >>>>and
>> >>>>professor of English, who is the daughter of deaf parents, or a
>> CODA as
>> >>>>we
>> >>>>call people like her--Children of Deaf Adults. She has written both
>> >>>>mainstream stuff and stuff having to do with her upbringing in a
>> Deaf
>> >>>>home
>> >>>>and her continued link with the Deaf community. You guessed it
>> again:
>> >>>>Her
>> >>>>Deaf-related poems are more readily published and get higher praise.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>It is not that they can't get published without the deaf
>> material. They
>> >>>>can
>> >>>>and have. But it is against greater, much greater odds that they
>> do.
>> >>>>Here
>> >>>>and there, they are able to be heard, able to be distinguished
>> from the
>> >>>>rest
>> >>>>clamoring for the same editor's attention. And it's not that
>> writing
>> >>>>from a
>> >>>>different perspective will automatically get you published. The
>> writing
>> >>>>still has to be good. But it is a huge advantage in arresting the
>> >>>>editor's
>> >>>>attention, curiosity, and interest.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I don't know how the deaf writers could possibly try to write
>> mainstream
>> >>>>stuff, or how you could avoid writing as a blind writer, but I never
>> >>>>could,
>> >>>>never wanted to. It feels fake and contrived to me. It would
>> take too
>> >>>>much
>> >>>>effort to pretend, to write about auditory things I never heard, to
>> write
>> >>>>visual descriptions of what I have never seen. I am of the
>> opinion that
>> >>>>"'catering" to the mainstream audience is self-defeating, because
>> there
>> >>>>are
>> >>>>many writers that produce mainstream stuff and it's not like they're
>> >>>>"catering" but they're genuine because they ARE mainstream. I have
>> >>>>always
>> >>>>written straight from who and what I am. And I am not
>> complaining about
>> >>>>my
>> >>>>inability to write mainstream stuff because I've been published in
>> POETRY
>> >>>>magazine twice, while there are thousands of poets who can only
>> dream
>> >>>>about
>> >>>>ever getting there; I've been published in McSWEENEY'S, America's
>> most
>> >>>>hip
>> >>>>literary journal; I've won all those awards; my work has been
>> broadcast
>> >>>>on
>> >>>>radio, including on the "Poem of the Day" program on Martha
>> Stewart; I'm
>> >>>>being interviewed by someone from The New Yorker right now; I've
>> been a
>> >>>>featured poet at an international cultural arts festival, flown
>> there
>> >>>>first-class and with all expenses paid . . . so I guess I must be
>> doing
>> >>>>something right.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>No, that was not to brag at all. That was purely to make my
>> point, to
>> >>>>make
>> >>>>my case for writing from a different angle, and to encourage you and
>> >>>>others
>> >>>>to try doing that. Hey, it can't hurt to try, can it?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>John
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>No virus found in this outgoing message.
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>> >>>>1:01 PM
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>_______________________________________________
>> >>>>Writers Division web site:
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>> >>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
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>> ne
>> >>t
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>> .n
>> >>et
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>_______________________________________________
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