[stylist] A New Member
John Lee Clark
johnlee at clarktouch.com
Mon Dec 29 01:41:50 UTC 2008
Donna:
You know, when the whole integration thing for blacks and whites in schools
came up in the fifities and sixties, there were a lot of black people who
were against it. Those came from successful black communities. The
theologian Thomas Sowell and the novelist Ella Neale Hurston were the
leading voices against integration, fearing it would destroy black societies
that were doing fine. And they were right. Integration did destroy their
respective home communities.
But integration was thought to be necessary because there were many poor
black schools that lacked fair funding and lacked the same resources as the
white schools. But it remains a thorny issue even today, because there are
STILL many predominantly black schools that are strapped for money and
resources. All of the governmental fixes, all the staggered integration
systems, all the special forced school transfers--all of that hasn'['t done
any good yet.
>From my own experience, segregation was a blessing. I consider my education
at the Minnesota State Academy for the Deaf by far a better one than I could
ever get at a public school, even if I was hearing and sighted. If you
compare the average income of our graduates with the average income of the
public school alumni, or the percentage of students with Ph.D.s or any other
marker, and if the schools are to get credit for the success of their
students, MSAD is the way to go.
I did take classes at the nearly school for the blind, for Braille and O and
M, and it was a totally different world. It was a depressing place, and
there was only one fully blind teacher. I couldn't make sense of that at
all. The vibe, the dynamics, the environment was very different to me. But
when I visited the Kentucky school for the blind, I found it to be more like
my school. So I guess it can vary from school to school.
Anyway, I think the main theory behind integration is that it was the only
way to attain equality. Because, you know, segregation didn't do that. But
has integration helped? I am sure it has, to some degree. I guess the
debate over whether it was a gain or a loss will never end.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Donna Hill
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 1:33 PM
To: NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List
Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
Dave,
I agree. Segregation doesn't work for blind people, nor should it be
expected to.
Donna
--
For my bio & to hear clips from The Last Straw:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill
Apple I-Tunes
phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=259244374
Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind
www.padnfb.org
David Andrews wrote:
> The notion of having a "blind college" seems to be a mixed bag at
> best, to me. It smacks of segregation, the blind ghetto, and doesn't
> seem like progress to me. We have to live in a sighted world, so that
> sort of segregation is only putting off the inevitable.
>
> I understand, for whatever it is worth, that the deaf marry within
> their own community more then any other disability group. I presume
> it is a communication thing. While deaf persons "appear" to be more
> "normal" than blind persons, the communication thing is a huge barrier.
>
> Dave
>
> At 09:07 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote:
>> Yeah, there are blind counselors.
>>
>> But my previous point was that, in the deaf community, the employment of
>> deaf people is absolutely necessary in many, many fields. Take group
>> homes
>> for mentally ill deaf people. Having deaf residential staff and social
>> workers is an absolute requirement. Only very, very few hearing
>> people are
>> capable. Or take marketing a new videophone model to deaf
>> consumers. I am
>> willing to bet that one hundred percent of the marketing staff at all
>> the
>> video relay services companies are deaf. Deaf people can tell right
>> off if
>> you're hearing, and that makies it automatically harder to sell.
>>
>> But it seems to me in the blind fields, not many of them are controlled
>> through and through by blind people themselves. Let me ask you: Why
>> not?
>>
>> The deaf community also has four colleges predominatly populated by deaf
>> students. As far as I know, there is no college that is all blind or
>> even
>> mostly blind. Why not? Wouldn't it be cool if there was one?
>>
>> I don't know if this is true, but I recall my deafblind friend Rod
>> Macdonald
>> joking that his local blind chapter should be called the Association of
>> Vending Machine Operators. I gather that most of its members, if
>> they have
>> a job, work in the vending machine industry. Is this the number one
>> employer of blind people? If not, what is?
>>
>> The number one source of employment for deafblind people is their own
>> language, ASL. So they have a very safe hold on that!
>>
>> As for deafblind people, the unemployment is unbelievably high. But
>> things
>> are slowly changing as the telecommunications industry opens up to them.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of David Andrews
>> Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:51 PM
>> To: NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
>>
>> We have blind rehab counselors in Minnesota. We provide them with
>> drivers, as needed, a reasonable accommodation. They are only in the
>> field part of the time, so providing the drivers isn't a big deal.
>>
>> There have been blind counselors for a long time, and if New York has
>> none, something is really wrong.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> At 06:40 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote:
>> >Every counsellor I've had with the commission for the blind has been
>> >sighted. They are required to drive to their clients. Obviously
>> >blind people cannot fill these roles. However, in teaching blind
>> >people to use adaptive equipment blind individuals do this in
>> >facilities for the blind. I work with other handicaps, mostly
>> >mental disabilities, but have never worked with a blind person in
>> >rehabilitation. Yes, we have a blind governor in New York State but
>> >he doesn't use adaptive equipment,, walk with a white cane or read
>> >braille. I just keep forging ahead with my own thing. Judith
>> >----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lee Clark"
>> <johnlee at clarktouch.com>
>> >To: "'NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> >Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:58 PM
>> >Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
>> >
>> >
>> >>Judith:
>> >>
>> >>Deafness is an invisible to most. Deaf people can spot a deaf
>> person a
>> mile
>> >>away with the way their eyes move, but most hearing people don't know
>> >>anything until they'[re spoken to but don't respond, or if they see
>> them
>> >>signing.
>> >>
>> >>Blindness is more visible, certainly.
>> >>
>> >>But more accepted? Maybe as objects of sexual desire, but other than
>> that,
>> >>there's this difference in language. Blind people speak the same
>> language
>> >>with the mainstream. For this reason, I think blind people have
>> greater
>> >>potential for employment. However, blind unemployment is far
>> higher than
>> >>deaf unemployment.
>> >>
>> >>I think blind people are in higher positions, but deaf people have
>> more
>> >>jobs, just not as many in very high positions. There are several
>> >>"industries" suited especially for deaf people. One is the ASL
>> teaching
>> >>industry. As the second most popular foreign language and the fastest
>> >>growing, there are more than twenty thousand ASL teachers in the
>> country.
>> >>This industry includes performers for ASL videos, writers of ASL
>> textbooks,
>> >>tutors, etc. Then there is the relay services industry. Text relay,
>> >>CapTel, and most popular, video relay. This is a multi-billion dollar
>> >>industry and employs many deaf people in administration, training, and
>> >>marketing. A third source of employment is working for the states,
>> for
>> >>departments of human services and commissions and social work and also
>> >>teaching in the state schools for the deaf. You understand, most
>> services
>> >>provided to the deaf are provided by deaf people, too. Not many
>> hearing
>> >>people are capable or qualified to teach deaf children, give
>> counseling,
>> >>train, whatever.
>> >>
>> >>But outside of these areas and other smaller businesses geared
>> toward the
>> >>deaf, they don't have much headway. We don't have a deaf judge or
>> a deaf
>> >>governor, but you've got blind people in those positions.
>> >>
>> >>I may be wrong but low blind employment may have to do with the
>> fact blind
>> >>people are not required for meeting the needs of or providing
>> services to
>> >>the blind. Maybe you've got a good source of employment in vocational
>> >>rehabilitation, but to me, it seems there are way too many sighted
>> teachers,
>> >>trainers, counselors, and technicians that work with blind people.
>> And is
>> >>the fact that blindness is a great deal with SSDI a factor for the
>> high
>> >>unemployment? Deaf people can only earn up to eight hundred
>> dollars per
>> >>month if they want to keep their SSDI, whereas blind people can
>> earn up to
>> >>twice that. So it is more in the interest for the deaf to seek
>> full time
>> >>jobs and less in the interest for the blind to do the same.
>> >>
>> >>What do you think?
>> >>
>> >>John
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>-----Original Message-----
>> >>From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> >>Behalf Of Judith Bron
>> >>Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 5:16 PM
>> >>To: NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List
>> >>Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
>> >>
>> >>Could it be that deafness is more acceptable than blindness is that
>> deaf
>> >>people don't look different? In many cases the blind person's eyes
>> look
>> >>different from the sighted person's eyes. Judith
>> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Donna Hill" <penatwork at epix.net>
>> >>To: "NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> >>Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 6:45 PM
>> >>Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>John,
>> >>>I understand your perspective and I am writing a novel with a blind
>> >>>character, but having grown up trying to be sighted and being
>> taught to
>> be
>> >>
>> >>>sighted, I have information from that world as well and have
>> written some
>> >>>fiction with non blind characters, simply to avoid having the
>> story be
>> >>>about blindness, when the real point is more complicated as well as
>> >>>universal.
>> >>>
>> >>>I also can't help wondering, especially reading this particular post,
>> >>>about the difference between the blind and deaf communities. If the
>> blind
>> >>
>> >>>community were as large, independent and self-integrated as the deaf
>> >>>community and if blindness were as socially acceptable as deafness --
>> >>>i.e., Marly Maitlin is a superstar and the only blind woman anyone
>> knows
>> >>>is Helen Keller who died over fifty years ago, well, perhaps there
>> would
>> >>>be a market for blindness-related literature.
>> >>>Donna
>> >>>
>> >>>--
>> >>>For my bio & to hear clips from The Last Straw:
>> >>>http://cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill
>> >>>
>> >>>Apple I-Tunes
>> >>>
>>
>>>phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=259244374
>>
>> >>>
>> >>>Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>> >>>www.padnfb.org
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>John Lee Clark wrote:
>> >>>>Shelley:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Aside from my six-year run as publisher of my own publishing
>> operation,
>> I
>> >>>>have been involved in the publishing world for twelve years. I've
>> worked
>> >>>>with many, many writers, about half of them hearing sighted and the
>> other
>> >>>>deaf sighted with a few deafblind. While the quality of the writing
>> >>>>always
>> >>>>plays a role in whether or not something gets published, the deaf
>> >>>>writers'
>> >>>>writing from the deaf perspective is always, always an advantage.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>No, I don't mean one needs to make a conscious effort to write
>> "about"
>> >>>>being
>> >>>>deaf, in the didactic sense. Just write about life--love, crime,
>> family,
>> >>>>whatever--but through deaf eyes, drawing from the deaf writer's own
>> >>>>observations and sensations. Ha Jin, the well-known writer, made
>> the
>> >>>>point
>> >>>>in his latest book that there are too many writers who write
>> about stuff
>> >>>>they learned in a secondhand fashion, and readers can pick it up,
>> even
>> >>>>though they may not be conscious. The writer's describing his or
>> her
>> own
>> >>>>genuine observations and experiences for the purpose of describing
>> things
>> >>
>> >>>>is
>> >>>>very important and lends the work with an aura of, a vibe exuding
>> >>>>authenticity.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>So that's one benefit of writing exactly what you know. Another
>> boon to
>> >>>>any
>> >>>>writer is any type of outsiderhood. If you look back on the
>> annals of
>> >>>>literature, those who are "different" from the establishment
>> population
>> >>>>but
>> >>>>don't write from that different perspective don't get published
>> often,
>> or
>> >>
>> >>>>if
>> >>>>they do, their work wears off quickly and they are forgotten.
>> Take the
>> >>>>example of Thomas Caldwell, who was deaf, but wrote as if he
>> wasn't. Who
>> >>>>knows him now? Or take Richard Wright, a wonderful and
>> groundbreaking
>> >>>>African American writer. All of his books are still in print,
>> except
>> >>>>one,
>> >>>>and that was the only book he wrote about only white people.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>You understand, there are tens of thousands sighted people
>> writing and
>> >>>>trying to get published. So I cannot imagine any use in adding
>> more of
>> >>>>the
>> >>>>same types of material to that pot. There are only a limited
>> number of
>> >>>>genres and plots, and they all have been done over and over
>> again. But
>> >>>>if
>> >>>>you're blind, and you're privileged to have different sensations
>> and a
>> >>>>different touch in your observations, that's quite a blessing and
>> will
>> >>>>help
>> >>>>your work stand out amidst the awful racket of the same old, same
>> old
>> >>>>that
>> >>>>editors endure reading through week after week.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Now, my deaf writer friends, they all have found their most
>> important
>> and
>> >>>>rewarding publishing credits through their deaf material. Many
>> of them,
>> >>>>before they started workring with me, wrote only mainstream stuff,
>> >>>>thinking
>> >>>>they would have a better chance. Not so. Take Raymond Luczak:
>> He has
>> >>>>written over forty plays, but only twelve with deaf characters.
>> Thirteen
>> >>
>> >>>>of
>> >>>>his plays have been produced. All twelve deaf plays and one not
>> make up
>> >>>>the
>> >>>>thirteen, leaving the rest of his "hearing" plays still
>> collecting dust.
>> >>>>He
>> >>>>has written four novels, only one with deaf characters. No
>> surprise:
>> The
>> >>>>three mainstream works remain unpublished and the deaf one won a
>> >>>>prestigious
>> >>>>fellowship and also a national first-novel contest and will be
>> coming
>> out
>> >>>>soon. Raymond's "hearing" stuff is good and worthy of
>> publication, but
>> >>>>the
>> >>>>problem is that there are so many equally good stuff these days,
>> because
>> >>>>there are so many well-trained writers from all those MFA programs.
>> >>>>Those
>> >>>>who get published are the ones with unique voices, original
>> twists, or
>> >>>>those
>> >>>>who bring to the reader authentic tastes of different worlds.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I once got a story from a good deaf writer. It was about the
>> Titanic. A
>> >>>>couple gets separated at the end, the woman rowed away while the man
>> >>>>sinks
>> >>>>with the ship. It was wonderfully researched and detailed. The
>> writing
>> >>>>was
>> >>>>smooth and luminous. In all the fundamental areas, it was a superb
>> >>>>story.
>> >>>>But it was never picked up, and the deaf writer could not
>> understand why
>> >>>>not, since it was one of her very best efforts. The reason, of
>> course,
>> >>>>is
>> >>>>that the Titanic as the backdrop for a love story has been done to
>> death.
>> >>>>It was already worn threadbare even before that movie with Leo
>> and Kate.
>> >>>>But what if the couple was deaf? They wake up because of the great
>> >>>>commotion outside their room sending vibrations to them. They
>> ask each
>> >>>>other what's going on. Outside their room, they see people running.
>> >>>>They
>> >>>>try to get someone to write to them on a notepad, but they're all
>> >>>>panicked.
>> >>>>So they have to investigate, and gradually, from all the visual
>> >>>>information,
>> >>>>they begin to understand. A sailor tries to put the deaf woman
>> in line
>> >>>>for
>> >>>>getting on a lifeboat, but she doesn't want to be separated from her
>> >>>>husband. All sorts of misunderstandings, issues, correctives, etc.
>> >>>>occur.
>> >>>>And at the end, a twist on the classic separation thing: The deaf
>> woman
>> >>>>decides to sink with her husband, so strong is their bond with each
>> other
>> >>
>> >>>>as
>> >>>>they come from a small community and the deaf woman cannot imagine
>> >>>>venturing
>> >>>>out on her own amidst all those hearing strangers.
>> >>>>Now, isn't that a much better story? A blind couple on the Titanic
>> would
>> >>>>likewise be much better than the mainstream version and would
>> definitely
>> >>>>stand out!
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Incidentally, some of the hearing writers I've worked with but
>> who have
>> >>>>connectins to the Deaf world, they also have found greater
>> success in
>> >>>>publishing their work relating to the Deaf world as opposed to their
>> more
>> >>>>mainstream fare. Take Morgan Grayce Willow, an ASL interpreter.
>> Her
>> >>>>biggest book credit is her work on interpreting. Her most
>> prestigious
>> >>>>magazine credit is for her essay "Double Language," about her
>> experiences
>> >>
>> >>>>as
>> >>>>an interpreter. She has published other stuff, but with much more
>> >>>>difficulty and less compensation. Or take Pia Taavila, a
>> wonderful poet
>> >>>>and
>> >>>>professor of English, who is the daughter of deaf parents, or a
>> CODA as
>> >>>>we
>> >>>>call people like her--Children of Deaf Adults. She has written both
>> >>>>mainstream stuff and stuff having to do with her upbringing in a
>> Deaf
>> >>>>home
>> >>>>and her continued link with the Deaf community. You guessed it
>> again:
>> >>>>Her
>> >>>>Deaf-related poems are more readily published and get higher praise.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>It is not that they can't get published without the deaf
>> material. They
>> >>>>can
>> >>>>and have. But it is against greater, much greater odds that they
>> do.
>> >>>>Here
>> >>>>and there, they are able to be heard, able to be distinguished
>> from the
>> >>>>rest
>> >>>>clamoring for the same editor's attention. And it's not that
>> writing
>> >>>>from a
>> >>>>different perspective will automatically get you published. The
>> writing
>> >>>>still has to be good. But it is a huge advantage in arresting the
>> >>>>editor's
>> >>>>attention, curiosity, and interest.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I don't know how the deaf writers could possibly try to write
>> mainstream
>> >>>>stuff, or how you could avoid writing as a blind writer, but I never
>> >>>>could,
>> >>>>never wanted to. It feels fake and contrived to me. It would
>> take too
>> >>>>much
>> >>>>effort to pretend, to write about auditory things I never heard, to
>> write
>> >>>>visual descriptions of what I have never seen. I am of the
>> opinion that
>> >>>>"'catering" to the mainstream audience is self-defeating, because
>> there
>> >>>>are
>> >>>>many writers that produce mainstream stuff and it's not like they're
>> >>>>"catering" but they're genuine because they ARE mainstream. I have
>> >>>>always
>> >>>>written straight from who and what I am. And I am not
>> complaining about
>> >>>>my
>> >>>>inability to write mainstream stuff because I've been published in
>> POETRY
>> >>>>magazine twice, while there are thousands of poets who can only
>> dream
>> >>>>about
>> >>>>ever getting there; I've been published in McSWEENEY'S, America's
>> most
>> >>>>hip
>> >>>>literary journal; I've won all those awards; my work has been
>> broadcast
>> >>>>on
>> >>>>radio, including on the "Poem of the Day" program on Martha
>> Stewart; I'm
>> >>>>being interviewed by someone from The New Yorker right now; I've
>> been a
>> >>>>featured poet at an international cultural arts festival, flown
>> there
>> >>>>first-class and with all expenses paid . . . so I guess I must be
>> doing
>> >>>>something right.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>No, that was not to brag at all. That was purely to make my
>> point, to
>> >>>>make
>> >>>>my case for writing from a different angle, and to encourage you and
>> >>>>others
>> >>>>to try doing that. Hey, it can't hurt to try, can it?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>John
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>No virus found in this outgoing message.
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>> >>>>Release Date: 12/26/2008
>> >>>>1:01 PM
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>_______________________________________________
>> >>>>Writers Division web site:
>> >>>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>> >>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
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>> ne
>> >>t
>> >>>>
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>> >>
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>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1866 - Release Date:
>> 12/27/2008 8:49 PM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
> stylist mailing list
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> stylist:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/penatwork%40epix.ne
t
>
>
>
>
>
> E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)
> Database version: 5.11420
> http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/
>
E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386)
Database version: 5.11420
http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/
_______________________________________________
Writers Division web site:
http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
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h.com
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1865 - Release Date: 12/28/2008
12:00 AM
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1865 - Release Date: 12/28/2008
12:00 AM
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