[stylist] A New Member
Angela fowler
fowlers at syix.com
Sun Dec 28 20:08:28 UTC 2008
John, from what I have been reading there is a fundamental difference
between the blind community and the deaf community, and it has to do with
communication. There isn't the communication gap between blind and sighted
people that there is between deaf and hearing people. Until that is
resolved, deaf people need their own culture, to satisfy that natural human
need to belong and be excepted. Blind people, or at least those of us in the
federation, seek an equal standing in mainstreamed society, to be excepted
among our sighted peers as equally vital and equally capable.
-----Original Message-----
From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of John Lee Clark
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 11:16 AM
To: 'NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
Dave:
I am a big fan of segregation with gates. This means the separation is not
at all complete but at the same time it's not complete integration. I don't
know what it's like in the blind community or what values you all have, but
in the deaf community, those who went to public schools and were
"integrated" invariably, when they are adults, wish they hadn't gone to
public school but instead to deaf schools.
You understand, those who went to public schools grew up feeling inferior
and rejected. Many of them would, in a misguided effort to make friends,
try to act hearing and would try all sorts of unhealthy tactics to try and
be accepted. Girls, for example, would discover early that giving hearing
boys sexual favors would get them momentary attention and they can't figure
out why they always get dumped afterwards. There is a wealth of research
that shows that deaf children in public schools develop very serious
psychological problems and are ill-adjusted and "weak."
Because of these problems, they do not do well in life. They're not
assertive, self-sufficient, etc. Many would start over from square one
after discovering on their own the deaf community. They'd rebuild
themselves, build up their self-esteem, etc. and it's only then that they
start having a real life and to succeed--both in the deaf and hearing
worlds.
To get the best of both worlds, a balancing act between the two doesn't
work--it is too stressful and rife with failures. Nor does trying to
integrate completely in the hearing world work, because deaf people just
aren't hearing people and their trying to be is actually very
counterproductive. The more they try, the more disappointing the results
and the more the hearing reject them. What works is for the deaf to have
their own home base where they belong completely and are at complete ease,
and then they are also guests of the hearing world. As guests, they don't
try to be hearing or like them, don't try to downplay their differences.
They just are themselves, and as guests, they do get a lot of respect and
the hearing are usually good and gracious hosts.
The deaf colleges are wonderful not only in giving deaf people a higher
education, but in helping them start over if they are coming in from public
schools and hearing families. At those colleges, the public school
graduates are reborn. Those whwo went to deaf schools simply continue their
education in the same totally accessible way they've enjoyed at deaf
schools.
Did having those deaf colleges result in a deaf ghetto? No. There is no
such thing. The result is that most of them are confident and strong
individuals, and it is extremely difficult for hearing people to manipulate
them. Those who never went to deaf schools or deaf colleges are like, you
know, Uncle Toms, like Oreos, black on the outside, but white inside.
They're pushovers, for the most part.
Don't get me wrong. The mainstream has its uses, and it's good to be mobile
in it, to work in it, and to milk it for resources such as income and
clothes and such. But because the deaf have a complete, highly-developed
culture, they don't need to "belong" elsewhere, and being part of the
mainstream just isn't desirable. And I am in line with it, because, to be
honest with you, American mainstream culture leaves a great deal to be
desired.
Now, I don't know what blind people's values are. From your message, it
seems you are against any sort of segregation. Does that mean your goal is
inclusion in mainstream society?
John
-----Original Message-----
From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of David Andrews
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 10:45 PM
To: NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List
Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
The notion of having a "blind college" seems to be a mixed bag at best, to
me. It smacks of segregation, the blind ghetto, and doesn't seem like
progress to me. We have to live in a sighted world, so that sort of
segregation is only putting off the inevitable.
I understand, for whatever it is worth, that the deaf marry within their own
community more then any other disability group. I presume it is a
communication thing. While deaf persons "appear" to be more "normal" than
blind persons, the communication thing is a huge barrier.
Dave
At 09:07 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote:
>Yeah, there are blind counselors.
>
>But my previous point was that, in the deaf community, the employment
>of deaf people is absolutely necessary in many, many fields. Take
>group homes for mentally ill deaf people. Having deaf residential
>staff and social workers is an absolute requirement. Only very, very
>few hearing people are capable. Or take marketing a new videophone
>model to deaf consumers. I am willing to bet that one hundred percent
>of the marketing staff at all the video relay services companies are
>deaf. Deaf people can tell right off if you're hearing, and that makies it
automatically harder to sell.
>
>But it seems to me in the blind fields, not many of them are controlled
>through and through by blind people themselves. Let me ask you: Why not?
>
>The deaf community also has four colleges predominatly populated by
>deaf students. As far as I know, there is no college that is all blind
>or even mostly blind. Why not? Wouldn't it be cool if there was one?
>
>I don't know if this is true, but I recall my deafblind friend Rod
Macdonald
>joking that his local blind chapter should be called the Association of
>Vending Machine Operators. I gather that most of its members, if they
>have a job, work in the vending machine industry. Is this the number
>one employer of blind people? If not, what is?
>
>The number one source of employment for deafblind people is their own
>language, ASL. So they have a very safe hold on that!
>
>As for deafblind people, the unemployment is unbelievably high. But
>things are slowly changing as the telecommunications industry opens up to
them.
>
>John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of David Andrews
>Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:51 PM
>To: NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
>
>We have blind rehab counselors in Minnesota. We provide them with
>drivers, as needed, a reasonable accommodation. They are only in the
>field part of the time, so providing the drivers isn't a big deal.
>
>There have been blind counselors for a long time, and if New York has
>none, something is really wrong.
>
>Dave
>
>At 06:40 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote:
> >Every counsellor I've had with the commission for the blind has been
> >sighted. They are required to drive to their clients. Obviously
> >blind people cannot fill these roles. However, in teaching blind
> >people to use adaptive equipment blind individuals do this in
> >facilities for the blind. I work with other handicaps, mostly mental
> >disabilities, but have never worked with a blind person in
> >rehabilitation. Yes, we have a blind governor in New York State but
> >he doesn't use adaptive equipment,, walk with a white cane or read
> >braille. I just keep forging ahead with my own thing. Judith
> >----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lee Clark"
><johnlee at clarktouch.com>
> >To: "'NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> >Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:58 PM
> >Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
> >
> >
> >>Judith:
> >>
> >>Deafness is an invisible to most. Deaf people can spot a deaf
> >>person a
>mile
> >>away with the way their eyes move, but most hearing people don't
> >>know anything until they'[re spoken to but don't respond, or if they
> >>see them signing.
> >>
> >>Blindness is more visible, certainly.
> >>
> >>But more accepted? Maybe as objects of sexual desire, but other
> >>than
>that,
> >>there's this difference in language. Blind people speak the same
language
> >>with the mainstream. For this reason, I think blind people have
> >>greater potential for employment. However, blind unemployment is
> >>far higher
than
> >>deaf unemployment.
> >>
> >>I think blind people are in higher positions, but deaf people have
> >>more jobs, just not as many in very high positions. There are
> >>several "industries" suited especially for deaf people. One is the
> >>ASL teaching industry. As the second most popular foreign language
> >>and the fastest growing, there are more than twenty thousand ASL
> >>teachers in the
country.
> >>This industry includes performers for ASL videos, writers of ASL
>textbooks,
> >>tutors, etc. Then there is the relay services industry. Text
> >>relay, CapTel, and most popular, video relay. This is a
> >>multi-billion dollar industry and employs many deaf people in
> >>administration, training, and marketing. A third source of
> >>employment is working for the states, for departments of human
> >>services and commissions and social work and also teaching in the
> >>state schools for the deaf. You understand, most
services
> >>provided to the deaf are provided by deaf people, too. Not many
> >>hearing people are capable or qualified to teach deaf children, give
> >>counseling, train, whatever.
> >>
> >>But outside of these areas and other smaller businesses geared
> >>toward
the
> >>deaf, they don't have much headway. We don't have a deaf judge or a
deaf
> >>governor, but you've got blind people in those positions.
> >>
> >>I may be wrong but low blind employment may have to do with the fact
blind
> >>people are not required for meeting the needs of or providing
> >>services
to
> >>the blind. Maybe you've got a good source of employment in
> >>vocational rehabilitation, but to me, it seems there are way too
> >>many sighted
>teachers,
> >>trainers, counselors, and technicians that work with blind people.
> >>And
is
> >>the fact that blindness is a great deal with SSDI a factor for the
> >>high unemployment? Deaf people can only earn up to eight hundred
> >>dollars per month if they want to keep their SSDI, whereas blind
> >>people can earn up
to
> >>twice that. So it is more in the interest for the deaf to seek full
time
> >>jobs and less in the interest for the blind to do the same.
> >>
> >>What do you think?
> >>
> >>John
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> >>On Behalf Of Judith Bron
> >>Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 5:16 PM
> >>To: NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List
> >>Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
> >>
> >>Could it be that deafness is more acceptable than blindness is that
> >>deaf people don't look different? In many cases the blind person's
> >>eyes look different from the sighted person's eyes. Judith
> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Donna Hill" <penatwork at epix.net>
> >>To: "NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> >>Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 6:45 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
> >>
> >>
> >>>John,
> >>>I understand your perspective and I am writing a novel with a blind
> >>>character, but having grown up trying to be sighted and being
> >>>taught to
>be
> >>
> >>>sighted, I have information from that world as well and have
> >>>written
some
> >>>fiction with non blind characters, simply to avoid having the story
> >>>be about blindness, when the real point is more complicated as well
> >>>as universal.
> >>>
> >>>I also can't help wondering, especially reading this particular
> >>>post, about the difference between the blind and deaf communities.
> >>>If the
>blind
> >>
> >>>community were as large, independent and self-integrated as the
> >>>deaf community and if blindness were as socially acceptable as
> >>>deafness -- i.e., Marly Maitlin is a superstar and the only blind
> >>>woman anyone
knows
> >>>is Helen Keller who died over fifty years ago, well, perhaps there
would
> >>>be a market for blindness-related literature.
> >>>Donna
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>For my bio & to hear clips from The Last Straw:
> >>>http://cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill
> >>>
> >>>Apple I-Tunes
> >>>
>
>>>phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=25924
>>>4374
> >>>
> >>>Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> >>>www.padnfb.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>John Lee Clark wrote:
> >>>>Shelley:
> >>>>
> >>>>Aside from my six-year run as publisher of my own publishing
operation,
>I
> >>>>have been involved in the publishing world for twelve years. I've
>worked
> >>>>with many, many writers, about half of them hearing sighted and
> >>>>the
>other
> >>>>deaf sighted with a few deafblind. While the quality of the
> >>>>writing always plays a role in whether or not something gets
> >>>>published, the deaf writers'
> >>>>writing from the deaf perspective is always, always an advantage.
> >>>>
> >>>>No, I don't mean one needs to make a conscious effort to write "about"
> >>>>being
> >>>>deaf, in the didactic sense. Just write about life--love, crime,
>family,
> >>>>whatever--but through deaf eyes, drawing from the deaf writer's
> >>>>own observations and sensations. Ha Jin, the well-known writer,
> >>>>made the point in his latest book that there are too many writers
> >>>>who write about
stuff
> >>>>they learned in a secondhand fashion, and readers can pick it up,
> >>>>even though they may not be conscious. The writer's describing
> >>>>his or her
>own
> >>>>genuine observations and experiences for the purpose of describing
>things
> >>
> >>>>is
> >>>>very important and lends the work with an aura of, a vibe exuding
> >>>>authenticity.
> >>>>
> >>>>So that's one benefit of writing exactly what you know. Another
> >>>>boon
to
> >>>>any
> >>>>writer is any type of outsiderhood. If you look back on the
> >>>>annals of literature, those who are "different" from the
> >>>>establishment
population
> >>>>but
> >>>>don't write from that different perspective don't get published
> >>>>often,
>or
> >>
> >>>>if
> >>>>they do, their work wears off quickly and they are forgotten.
> >>>>Take
the
> >>>>example of Thomas Caldwell, who was deaf, but wrote as if he wasn't.
Who
> >>>>knows him now? Or take Richard Wright, a wonderful and
> >>>>groundbreaking African American writer. All of his books are
> >>>>still in print, except one, and that was the only book he wrote
> >>>>about only white people.
> >>>>
> >>>>You understand, there are tens of thousands sighted people writing
> >>>>and trying to get published. So I cannot imagine any use in
> >>>>adding more
of
> >>>>the
> >>>>same types of material to that pot. There are only a limited
> >>>>number
of
> >>>>genres and plots, and they all have been done over and over again.
But
> >>>>if
> >>>>you're blind, and you're privileged to have different sensations
> >>>>and a different touch in your observations, that's quite a
> >>>>blessing and will help your work stand out amidst the awful racket
> >>>>of the same old, same old that editors endure reading through week
> >>>>after week.
> >>>>
> >>>>Now, my deaf writer friends, they all have found their most
> >>>>important
>and
> >>>>rewarding publishing credits through their deaf material. Many of
them,
> >>>>before they started workring with me, wrote only mainstream stuff,
> >>>>thinking they would have a better chance. Not so. Take Raymond
> >>>>Luczak: He has written over forty plays, but only twelve with deaf
> >>>>characters.
Thirteen
> >>
> >>>>of
> >>>>his plays have been produced. All twelve deaf plays and one not
> >>>>make
up
> >>>>the
> >>>>thirteen, leaving the rest of his "hearing" plays still collecting
dust.
> >>>>He
> >>>>has written four novels, only one with deaf characters. No surprise:
>The
> >>>>three mainstream works remain unpublished and the deaf one won a
> >>>>prestigious fellowship and also a national first-novel contest and
> >>>>will be coming
>out
> >>>>soon. Raymond's "hearing" stuff is good and worthy of
> >>>>publication,
but
> >>>>the
> >>>>problem is that there are so many equally good stuff these days,
because
> >>>>there are so many well-trained writers from all those MFA programs.
> >>>>Those
> >>>>who get published are the ones with unique voices, original
> >>>>twists, or those who bring to the reader authentic tastes of
> >>>>different worlds.
> >>>>
> >>>>I once got a story from a good deaf writer. It was about the Titanic.
A
> >>>>couple gets separated at the end, the woman rowed away while the
> >>>>man sinks with the ship. It was wonderfully researched and
> >>>>detailed. The
writing
> >>>>was
> >>>>smooth and luminous. In all the fundamental areas, it was a
> >>>>superb story.
> >>>>But it was never picked up, and the deaf writer could not
> >>>>understand
why
> >>>>not, since it was one of her very best efforts. The reason, of
course,
> >>>>is
> >>>>that the Titanic as the backdrop for a love story has been done to
>death.
> >>>>It was already worn threadbare even before that movie with Leo and
Kate.
> >>>>But what if the couple was deaf? They wake up because of the
> >>>>great commotion outside their room sending vibrations to them.
> >>>>They ask
each
> >>>>other what's going on. Outside their room, they see people running.
> >>>>They
> >>>>try to get someone to write to them on a notepad, but they're all
> >>>>panicked.
> >>>>So they have to investigate, and gradually, from all the visual
> >>>>information, they begin to understand. A sailor tries to put the
> >>>>deaf woman in
line
> >>>>for
> >>>>getting on a lifeboat, but she doesn't want to be separated from
> >>>>her husband. All sorts of misunderstandings, issues, correctives,
etc.
> >>>>occur.
> >>>>And at the end, a twist on the classic separation thing: The deaf
woman
> >>>>decides to sink with her husband, so strong is their bond with
> >>>>each
>other
> >>
> >>>>as
> >>>>they come from a small community and the deaf woman cannot imagine
> >>>>venturing out on her own amidst all those hearing strangers.
> >>>>Now, isn't that a much better story? A blind couple on the
> >>>>Titanic
>would
> >>>>likewise be much better than the mainstream version and would
definitely
> >>>>stand out!
> >>>>
> >>>>Incidentally, some of the hearing writers I've worked with but who
have
> >>>>connectins to the Deaf world, they also have found greater success
> >>>>in publishing their work relating to the Deaf world as opposed to
> >>>>their
>more
> >>>>mainstream fare. Take Morgan Grayce Willow, an ASL interpreter.
> >>>>Her biggest book credit is her work on interpreting. Her most
> >>>>prestigious magazine credit is for her essay "Double Language,"
> >>>>about her
>experiences
> >>
> >>>>as
> >>>>an interpreter. She has published other stuff, but with much more
> >>>>difficulty and less compensation. Or take Pia Taavila, a
> >>>>wonderful
poet
> >>>>and
> >>>>professor of English, who is the daughter of deaf parents, or a
> >>>>CODA
as
> >>>>we
> >>>>call people like her--Children of Deaf Adults. She has written
> >>>>both mainstream stuff and stuff having to do with her upbringing
> >>>>in a Deaf home and her continued link with the Deaf community.
> >>>>You guessed it again:
> >>>>Her
> >>>>Deaf-related poems are more readily published and get higher praise.
> >>>>
> >>>>It is not that they can't get published without the deaf material.
They
> >>>>can
> >>>>and have. But it is against greater, much greater odds that they do.
> >>>>Here
> >>>>and there, they are able to be heard, able to be distinguished
> >>>>from
the
> >>>>rest
> >>>>clamoring for the same editor's attention. And it's not that
> >>>>writing from a different perspective will automatically get you
> >>>>published. The
writing
> >>>>still has to be good. But it is a huge advantage in arresting the
> >>>>editor's attention, curiosity, and interest.
> >>>>
> >>>>I don't know how the deaf writers could possibly try to write
mainstream
> >>>>stuff, or how you could avoid writing as a blind writer, but I
> >>>>never could, never wanted to. It feels fake and contrived to me.
> >>>>It would take
too
> >>>>much
> >>>>effort to pretend, to write about auditory things I never heard,
> >>>>to
>write
> >>>>visual descriptions of what I have never seen. I am of the
> >>>>opinion
that
> >>>>"'catering" to the mainstream audience is self-defeating, because
there
> >>>>are
> >>>>many writers that produce mainstream stuff and it's not like
> >>>>they're "catering" but they're genuine because they ARE
> >>>>mainstream. I have always written straight from who and what I
> >>>>am. And I am not complaining
about
> >>>>my
> >>>>inability to write mainstream stuff because I've been published in
>POETRY
> >>>>magazine twice, while there are thousands of poets who can only
> >>>>dream about ever getting there; I've been published in
> >>>>McSWEENEY'S, America's most hip literary journal; I've won all
> >>>>those awards; my work has been
broadcast
> >>>>on
> >>>>radio, including on the "Poem of the Day" program on Martha
> >>>>Stewart;
I'm
> >>>>being interviewed by someone from The New Yorker right now; I've
> >>>>been
a
> >>>>featured poet at an international cultural arts festival, flown there
> >>>>first-class and with all expenses paid . . . so I guess I must be
>doing
> >>>>something right.
> >>>>
> >>>>No, that was not to brag at all. That was purely to make my
> >>>>point, to make my case for writing from a different angle, and to
> >>>>encourage you and others to try doing that. Hey, it can't hurt to
> >>>>try, can it?
> >>>>
> >>>>John
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>No virus found in this outgoing message.
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> >>>>Release Date: 12/26/2008
> >>>>1:01 PM
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>Writers Division web site:
> >>>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> >>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
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>ne
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> >>_______________________________________________
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> >>
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> >
> >_______________________________________________
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<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
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_______________________________________________
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1865 - Release Date: 12/28/2008
12:00 AM
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1865 - Release Date: 12/28/2008
12:00 AM
_______________________________________________
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