[stylist] A New Member
John Lee Clark
johnlee at clarktouch.com
Mon Dec 29 00:50:46 UTC 2008
Dave:
You're right. Braille is merely a code for English, whereas ASL is a
language unto itself, with its own grammar and structure.
As for numbers in populations: There are twenty eight million people with
hearing loss. However, the deaf community is much smaller than that, with
perhaps two to three million.
I imagine that blind people who are "involved" in the blind community is a
smaller number than the total of people with vision loss.
Anyway, the deaf identify themselves with other cultural and linguistic
minorities. They don't identify with the disabled communities. While
disability studies occasionally discuss the deaf community, there's a whole
academic category called Deaf Studies and its findings and narratives
resemble African American Studies, Women's Studies, Hispanic Studies, etc.
much more than Disability Studies.
When I first started to meet hearing blind people, I was shocked to learn
that many of them thought there were something "wrong" and "not normal"
about being blind. Some would even try for a cure if there was one. This
was totally different from deaf cultural beliefs which hold that there's
nothing wrong about being deaf.
So I am wondering, if full inclusion in the mainstream is indeed the goal,
what it would mean for how you perceieve your own blindness. The deaf's
goals are similar to other ethnic minorities--sure, they want to get in
movies, they want to get all the equal rights, they want respect and
recognition, but NO WAY do they want to be white! They want to remain
black, Latino, etc. The Deaf is the same.
So my question is: Are you saying that blind people want the respect,
rights, etc. but they also want to be sighted?
John
-----Original Message-----
From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of David Andrews
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 4:05 PM
To: NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List
Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
Yes, for many of us, our goal is inclusion in society.
We are a smaller group than deaf and hard of hearing persons, so it
is probably less likely that we would have viable institutions like
colleges. Also, there really isn't a blind culture, in the way that
people talk about deaf culture, and braille isn't a language, in the
way that I suspect ASL is.
Dave
At 01:15 PM 12/28/2008, you wrote:
>Dave:
>
>I am a big fan of segregation with gates. This means the separation is not
>at all complete but at the same time it's not complete integration. I
don't
>know what it's like in the blind community or what values you all have, but
>in the deaf community, those who went to public schools and were
>"integrated" invariably, when they are adults, wish they hadn't gone to
>public school but instead to deaf schools.
>
>You understand, those who went to public schools grew up feeling inferior
>and rejected. Many of them would, in a misguided effort to make friends,
>try to act hearing and would try all sorts of unhealthy tactics to try and
>be accepted. Girls, for example, would discover early that giving hearing
>boys sexual favors would get them momentary attention and they can't figure
>out why they always get dumped afterwards. There is a wealth of research
>that shows that deaf children in public schools develop very serious
>psychological problems and are ill-adjusted and "weak."
>
>Because of these problems, they do not do well in life. They're not
>assertive, self-sufficient, etc. Many would start over from square one
>after discovering on their own the deaf community. They'd rebuild
>themselves, build up their self-esteem, etc. and it's only then that they
>start having a real life and to succeed--both in the deaf and hearing
>worlds.
>
>To get the best of both worlds, a balancing act between the two doesn't
>work--it is too stressful and rife with failures. Nor does trying to
>integrate completely in the hearing world work, because deaf people just
>aren't hearing people and their trying to be is actually very
>counterproductive. The more they try, the more disappointing the results
>and the more the hearing reject them. What works is for the deaf to have
>their own home base where they belong completely and are at complete ease,
>and then they are also guests of the hearing world. As guests, they don't
>try to be hearing or like them, don't try to downplay their differences.
>They just are themselves, and as guests, they do get a lot of respect and
>the hearing are usually good and gracious hosts.
>
>The deaf colleges are wonderful not only in giving deaf people a higher
>education, but in helping them start over if they are coming in from public
>schools and hearing families. At those colleges, the public school
>graduates are reborn. Those whwo went to deaf schools simply continue
their
>education in the same totally accessible way they've enjoyed at deaf
>schools.
>
>Did having those deaf colleges result in a deaf ghetto? No. There is no
>such thing. The result is that most of them are confident and strong
>individuals, and it is extremely difficult for hearing people to manipulate
>them. Those who never went to deaf schools or deaf colleges are like, you
>know, Uncle Toms, like Oreos, black on the outside, but white inside.
>They're pushovers, for the most part.
>
>Don't get me wrong. The mainstream has its uses, and it's good to be
mobile
>in it, to work in it, and to milk it for resources such as income and
>clothes and such. But because the deaf have a complete, highly-developed
>culture, they don't need to "belong" elsewhere, and being part of the
>mainstream just isn't desirable. And I am in line with it, because, to be
>honest with you, American mainstream culture leaves a great deal to be
>desired.
>
>Now, I don't know what blind people's values are. From your message, it
>seems you are against any sort of segregation. Does that mean your goal is
>inclusion in mainstream society?
>
>John
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of David Andrews
>Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 10:45 PM
>To: NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
>
>The notion of having a "blind college" seems to be a mixed bag at
>best, to me. It smacks of segregation, the blind ghetto, and doesn't
>seem like progress to me. We have to live in a sighted world, so
>that sort of segregation is only putting off the inevitable.
>
>I understand, for whatever it is worth, that the deaf marry within
>their own community more then any other disability group. I presume
>it is a communication thing. While deaf persons "appear" to be more
>"normal" than blind persons, the communication thing is a huge barrier.
>
>Dave
>
>At 09:07 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote:
> >Yeah, there are blind counselors.
> >
> >But my previous point was that, in the deaf community, the employment of
> >deaf people is absolutely necessary in many, many fields. Take group
homes
> >for mentally ill deaf people. Having deaf residential staff and social
> >workers is an absolute requirement. Only very, very few hearing people
are
> >capable. Or take marketing a new videophone model to deaf consumers. I
am
> >willing to bet that one hundred percent of the marketing staff at all the
> >video relay services companies are deaf. Deaf people can tell right off
if
> >you're hearing, and that makies it automatically harder to sell.
> >
> >But it seems to me in the blind fields, not many of them are controlled
> >through and through by blind people themselves. Let me ask you: Why not?
> >
> >The deaf community also has four colleges predominatly populated by deaf
> >students. As far as I know, there is no college that is all blind or
even
> >mostly blind. Why not? Wouldn't it be cool if there was one?
> >
> >I don't know if this is true, but I recall my deafblind friend Rod
>Macdonald
> >joking that his local blind chapter should be called the Association of
> >Vending Machine Operators. I gather that most of its members, if they
have
> >a job, work in the vending machine industry. Is this the number one
> >employer of blind people? If not, what is?
> >
> >The number one source of employment for deafblind people is their own
> >language, ASL. So they have a very safe hold on that!
> >
> >As for deafblind people, the unemployment is unbelievably high. But
things
> >are slowly changing as the telecommunications industry opens up to them.
> >
> >John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >Behalf Of David Andrews
> >Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:51 PM
> >To: NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List
> >Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
> >
> >We have blind rehab counselors in Minnesota. We provide them with
> >drivers, as needed, a reasonable accommodation. They are only in the
> >field part of the time, so providing the drivers isn't a big deal.
> >
> >There have been blind counselors for a long time, and if New York has
> >none, something is really wrong.
> >
> >Dave
> >
> >At 06:40 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote:
> > >Every counsellor I've had with the commission for the blind has been
> > >sighted. They are required to drive to their clients. Obviously
> > >blind people cannot fill these roles. However, in teaching blind
> > >people to use adaptive equipment blind individuals do this in
> > >facilities for the blind. I work with other handicaps, mostly
> > >mental disabilities, but have never worked with a blind person in
> > >rehabilitation. Yes, we have a blind governor in New York State but
> > >he doesn't use adaptive equipment,, walk with a white cane or read
> > >braille. I just keep forging ahead with my own thing. Judith
> > >----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lee Clark"
> ><johnlee at clarktouch.com>
> > >To: "'NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > >Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:58 PM
> > >Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
> > >
> > >
> > >>Judith:
> > >>
> > >>Deafness is an invisible to most. Deaf people can spot a deaf person
a
> >mile
> > >>away with the way their eyes move, but most hearing people don't know
> > >>anything until they'[re spoken to but don't respond, or if they see
them
> > >>signing.
> > >>
> > >>Blindness is more visible, certainly.
> > >>
> > >>But more accepted? Maybe as objects of sexual desire, but other than
> >that,
> > >>there's this difference in language. Blind people speak the same
>language
> > >>with the mainstream. For this reason, I think blind people have
greater
> > >>potential for employment. However, blind unemployment is far higher
>than
> > >>deaf unemployment.
> > >>
> > >>I think blind people are in higher positions, but deaf people have
more
> > >>jobs, just not as many in very high positions. There are several
> > >>"industries" suited especially for deaf people. One is the ASL
teaching
> > >>industry. As the second most popular foreign language and the fastest
> > >>growing, there are more than twenty thousand ASL teachers in the
>country.
> > >>This industry includes performers for ASL videos, writers of ASL
> >textbooks,
> > >>tutors, etc. Then there is the relay services industry. Text relay,
> > >>CapTel, and most popular, video relay. This is a multi-billion dollar
> > >>industry and employs many deaf people in administration, training, and
> > >>marketing. A third source of employment is working for the states,
for
> > >>departments of human services and commissions and social work and also
> > >>teaching in the state schools for the deaf. You understand, most
>services
> > >>provided to the deaf are provided by deaf people, too. Not many
hearing
> > >>people are capable or qualified to teach deaf children, give
counseling,
> > >>train, whatever.
> > >>
> > >>But outside of these areas and other smaller businesses geared toward
>the
> > >>deaf, they don't have much headway. We don't have a deaf judge or a
>deaf
> > >>governor, but you've got blind people in those positions.
> > >>
> > >>I may be wrong but low blind employment may have to do with the fact
>blind
> > >>people are not required for meeting the needs of or providing services
>to
> > >>the blind. Maybe you've got a good source of employment in vocational
> > >>rehabilitation, but to me, it seems there are way too many sighted
> >teachers,
> > >>trainers, counselors, and technicians that work with blind people.
And
>is
> > >>the fact that blindness is a great deal with SSDI a factor for the
high
> > >>unemployment? Deaf people can only earn up to eight hundred dollars
per
> > >>month if they want to keep their SSDI, whereas blind people can earn
up
>to
> > >>twice that. So it is more in the interest for the deaf to seek full
>time
> > >>jobs and less in the interest for the blind to do the same.
> > >>
> > >>What do you think?
> > >>
> > >>John
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>-----Original Message-----
> > >>From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
> > >>Behalf Of Judith Bron
> > >>Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 5:16 PM
> > >>To: NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List
> > >>Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
> > >>
> > >>Could it be that deafness is more acceptable than blindness is that
deaf
> > >>people don't look different? In many cases the blind person's eyes
look
> > >>different from the sighted person's eyes. Judith
> > >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Donna Hill" <penatwork at epix.net>
> > >>To: "NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> > >>Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 6:45 PM
> > >>Subject: Re: [stylist] A New Member
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>John,
> > >>>I understand your perspective and I am writing a novel with a blind
> > >>>character, but having grown up trying to be sighted and being taught
to
> >be
> > >>
> > >>>sighted, I have information from that world as well and have written
>some
> > >>>fiction with non blind characters, simply to avoid having the story
be
> > >>>about blindness, when the real point is more complicated as well as
> > >>>universal.
> > >>>
> > >>>I also can't help wondering, especially reading this particular post,
> > >>>about the difference between the blind and deaf communities. If the
> >blind
> > >>
> > >>>community were as large, independent and self-integrated as the deaf
> > >>>community and if blindness were as socially acceptable as deafness --
> > >>>i.e., Marly Maitlin is a superstar and the only blind woman anyone
>knows
> > >>>is Helen Keller who died over fifty years ago, well, perhaps there
>would
> > >>>be a market for blindness-related literature.
> > >>>Donna
> > >>>
> > >>>--
> > >>>For my bio & to hear clips from The Last Straw:
> > >>>http://cdbaby.com/cd/donnahill
> > >>>
> > >>>Apple I-Tunes
> > >>>
> >
>
>>>phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=259244374
> > >>>
> > >>>Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> > >>>www.padnfb.org
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>John Lee Clark wrote:
> > >>>>Shelley:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Aside from my six-year run as publisher of my own publishing
>operation,
> >I
> > >>>>have been involved in the publishing world for twelve years. I've
> >worked
> > >>>>with many, many writers, about half of them hearing sighted and the
> >other
> > >>>>deaf sighted with a few deafblind. While the quality of the writing
> > >>>>always
> > >>>>plays a role in whether or not something gets published, the deaf
> > >>>>writers'
> > >>>>writing from the deaf perspective is always, always an advantage.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>No, I don't mean one needs to make a conscious effort to write
"about"
> > >>>>being
> > >>>>deaf, in the didactic sense. Just write about life--love, crime,
> >family,
> > >>>>whatever--but through deaf eyes, drawing from the deaf writer's own
> > >>>>observations and sensations. Ha Jin, the well-known writer, made
the
> > >>>>point
> > >>>>in his latest book that there are too many writers who write about
>stuff
> > >>>>they learned in a secondhand fashion, and readers can pick it up,
even
> > >>>>though they may not be conscious. The writer's describing his or
her
> >own
> > >>>>genuine observations and experiences for the purpose of describing
> >things
> > >>
> > >>>>is
> > >>>>very important and lends the work with an aura of, a vibe exuding
> > >>>>authenticity.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>So that's one benefit of writing exactly what you know. Another
boon
>to
> > >>>>any
> > >>>>writer is any type of outsiderhood. If you look back on the annals
of
> > >>>>literature, those who are "different" from the establishment
>population
> > >>>>but
> > >>>>don't write from that different perspective don't get published
often,
> >or
> > >>
> > >>>>if
> > >>>>they do, their work wears off quickly and they are forgotten. Take
>the
> > >>>>example of Thomas Caldwell, who was deaf, but wrote as if he wasn't.
>Who
> > >>>>knows him now? Or take Richard Wright, a wonderful and
groundbreaking
> > >>>>African American writer. All of his books are still in print,
except
> > >>>>one,
> > >>>>and that was the only book he wrote about only white people.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>You understand, there are tens of thousands sighted people writing
and
> > >>>>trying to get published. So I cannot imagine any use in adding more
>of
> > >>>>the
> > >>>>same types of material to that pot. There are only a limited number
>of
> > >>>>genres and plots, and they all have been done over and over again.
>But
> > >>>>if
> > >>>>you're blind, and you're privileged to have different sensations and
a
> > >>>>different touch in your observations, that's quite a blessing and
will
> > >>>>help
> > >>>>your work stand out amidst the awful racket of the same old, same
old
> > >>>>that
> > >>>>editors endure reading through week after week.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Now, my deaf writer friends, they all have found their most
important
> >and
> > >>>>rewarding publishing credits through their deaf material. Many of
>them,
> > >>>>before they started workring with me, wrote only mainstream stuff,
> > >>>>thinking
> > >>>>they would have a better chance. Not so. Take Raymond Luczak: He
has
> > >>>>written over forty plays, but only twelve with deaf characters.
>Thirteen
> > >>
> > >>>>of
> > >>>>his plays have been produced. All twelve deaf plays and one not
make
>up
> > >>>>the
> > >>>>thirteen, leaving the rest of his "hearing" plays still collecting
>dust.
> > >>>>He
> > >>>>has written four novels, only one with deaf characters. No
surprise:
> >The
> > >>>>three mainstream works remain unpublished and the deaf one won a
> > >>>>prestigious
> > >>>>fellowship and also a national first-novel contest and will be
coming
> >out
> > >>>>soon. Raymond's "hearing" stuff is good and worthy of publication,
>but
> > >>>>the
> > >>>>problem is that there are so many equally good stuff these days,
>because
> > >>>>there are so many well-trained writers from all those MFA programs.
> > >>>>Those
> > >>>>who get published are the ones with unique voices, original twists,
or
> > >>>>those
> > >>>>who bring to the reader authentic tastes of different worlds.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>I once got a story from a good deaf writer. It was about the
Titanic.
>A
> > >>>>couple gets separated at the end, the woman rowed away while the man
> > >>>>sinks
> > >>>>with the ship. It was wonderfully researched and detailed. The
>writing
> > >>>>was
> > >>>>smooth and luminous. In all the fundamental areas, it was a superb
> > >>>>story.
> > >>>>But it was never picked up, and the deaf writer could not understand
>why
> > >>>>not, since it was one of her very best efforts. The reason, of
>course,
> > >>>>is
> > >>>>that the Titanic as the backdrop for a love story has been done to
> >death.
> > >>>>It was already worn threadbare even before that movie with Leo and
>Kate.
> > >>>>But what if the couple was deaf? They wake up because of the great
> > >>>>commotion outside their room sending vibrations to them. They ask
>each
> > >>>>other what's going on. Outside their room, they see people running.
> > >>>>They
> > >>>>try to get someone to write to them on a notepad, but they're all
> > >>>>panicked.
> > >>>>So they have to investigate, and gradually, from all the visual
> > >>>>information,
> > >>>>they begin to understand. A sailor tries to put the deaf woman in
>line
> > >>>>for
> > >>>>getting on a lifeboat, but she doesn't want to be separated from her
> > >>>>husband. All sorts of misunderstandings, issues, correctives, etc.
> > >>>>occur.
> > >>>>And at the end, a twist on the classic separation thing: The deaf
>woman
> > >>>>decides to sink with her husband, so strong is their bond with each
> >other
> > >>
> > >>>>as
> > >>>>they come from a small community and the deaf woman cannot imagine
> > >>>>venturing
> > >>>>out on her own amidst all those hearing strangers.
> > >>>>Now, isn't that a much better story? A blind couple on the Titanic
> >would
> > >>>>likewise be much better than the mainstream version and would
>definitely
> > >>>>stand out!
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Incidentally, some of the hearing writers I've worked with but who
>have
> > >>>>connectins to the Deaf world, they also have found greater success
in
> > >>>>publishing their work relating to the Deaf world as opposed to their
> >more
> > >>>>mainstream fare. Take Morgan Grayce Willow, an ASL interpreter.
Her
> > >>>>biggest book credit is her work on interpreting. Her most
prestigious
> > >>>>magazine credit is for her essay "Double Language," about her
> >experiences
> > >>
> > >>>>as
> > >>>>an interpreter. She has published other stuff, but with much more
> > >>>>difficulty and less compensation. Or take Pia Taavila, a wonderful
>poet
> > >>>>and
> > >>>>professor of English, who is the daughter of deaf parents, or a CODA
>as
> > >>>>we
> > >>>>call people like her--Children of Deaf Adults. She has written both
> > >>>>mainstream stuff and stuff having to do with her upbringing in a
Deaf
> > >>>>home
> > >>>>and her continued link with the Deaf community. You guessed it
again:
> > >>>>Her
> > >>>>Deaf-related poems are more readily published and get higher praise.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>It is not that they can't get published without the deaf material.
>They
> > >>>>can
> > >>>>and have. But it is against greater, much greater odds that they
do.
> > >>>>Here
> > >>>>and there, they are able to be heard, able to be distinguished from
>the
> > >>>>rest
> > >>>>clamoring for the same editor's attention. And it's not that
writing
> > >>>>from a
> > >>>>different perspective will automatically get you published. The
>writing
> > >>>>still has to be good. But it is a huge advantage in arresting the
> > >>>>editor's
> > >>>>attention, curiosity, and interest.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>I don't know how the deaf writers could possibly try to write
>mainstream
> > >>>>stuff, or how you could avoid writing as a blind writer, but I never
> > >>>>could,
> > >>>>never wanted to. It feels fake and contrived to me. It would take
>too
> > >>>>much
> > >>>>effort to pretend, to write about auditory things I never heard, to
> >write
> > >>>>visual descriptions of what I have never seen. I am of the opinion
>that
> > >>>>"'catering" to the mainstream audience is self-defeating, because
>there
> > >>>>are
> > >>>>many writers that produce mainstream stuff and it's not like they're
> > >>>>"catering" but they're genuine because they ARE mainstream. I have
> > >>>>always
> > >>>>written straight from who and what I am. And I am not complaining
>about
> > >>>>my
> > >>>>inability to write mainstream stuff because I've been published in
> >POETRY
> > >>>>magazine twice, while there are thousands of poets who can only
dream
> > >>>>about
> > >>>>ever getting there; I've been published in McSWEENEY'S, America's
most
> > >>>>hip
> > >>>>literary journal; I've won all those awards; my work has been
>broadcast
> > >>>>on
> > >>>>radio, including on the "Poem of the Day" program on Martha Stewart;
>I'm
> > >>>>being interviewed by someone from The New Yorker right now; I've
been
>a
> > >>>>featured poet at an international cultural arts festival, flown
there
> > >>>>first-class and with all expenses paid . . . so I guess I must be
> >doing
> > >>>>something right.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>No, that was not to brag at all. That was purely to make my point,
to
> > >>>>make
> > >>>>my case for writing from a different angle, and to encourage you and
> > >>>>others
> > >>>>to try doing that. Hey, it can't hurt to try, can it?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>John
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > >>>>Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 -
> > >>>>Release Date: 12/26/2008
> > >>>>1:01 PM
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>_______________________________________________
> > >>>>Writers Division web site:
> > >>>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> > >>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >>>>
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for
> > >>>>stylist:
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>
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/penatwork%40epix.
> >ne
> > >>t
> > >>>>
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> > >>>stylist at nfbnet.org
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> > >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > >>>stylist:
> >
>
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/jbron%40optonline
> >.n
> > >>et
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>_______________________________________________
> > >>Writers Division web site:
> > >>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >>
> > >>stylist mailing list
> > >>stylist at nfbnet.org
> > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > >>stylist:
> >
>
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/johnlee%40clarkto
> >uc
> > >>h.com
> > >>
> > >>No virus found in this incoming message.
> > >>Checked by AVG.
> > >>Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date:
> >12/26/2008
> > >>1:01 PM
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > >>Checked by AVG.
> > >>Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date:
> >12/26/2008
> > >>1:01 PM
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>_______________________________________________
> > >>Writers Division web site:
> > >>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >>
> > >>stylist mailing list
> > >>stylist at nfbnet.org
> > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> > >>for stylist:
> >
>
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/jbron%40optonline
> >.net
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Writers Division web site:
> > >http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> > >
> > >stylist mailing list
> > >stylist at nfbnet.org
> > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >stylist:
> >
>
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.co
> >m
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >No virus found in this incoming message.
> > >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> > >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1866 - Release Date:
> > >12/27/2008 8:49 PM
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Writers Division web site:
> >http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> >
> >stylist mailing list
> >stylist at nfbnet.org
> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >stylist:
>
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/johnlee%40clarktou
>c
> >h.com
> >
> >No virus found in this incoming message.
> >Checked by AVG.
> >Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date:
12/26/2008
> >1:01 PM
> >
> >
> >No virus found in this outgoing message.
> >Checked by AVG.
> >Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1865 - Release Date:
12/26/2008
> >1:01 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Writers Division web site:
> >http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
<http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
> >
> >stylist mailing list
> >stylist at nfbnet.org
> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>stylist:
>
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.co
>m
> >
> >
> >No virus found in this incoming message.
> >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1866 - Release Date:
> >12/27/2008 8:49 PM
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Writers Division web site:
>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
>stylist mailing list
>stylist at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>stylist:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/johnlee%40clarktou
c
>h.com
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG.
>Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1865 - Release Date: 12/28/2008
>12:00 AM
>
>
>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>Checked by AVG.
>Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1865 - Release Date: 12/28/2008
>12:00 AM
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Writers Division web site:
>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
>stylist mailing list
>stylist at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
stylist:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.co
m
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1866 - Release Date:
>12/27/2008 8:49 PM
_______________________________________________
Writers Division web site:
http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
stylist mailing list
stylist at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
stylist:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/johnlee%40clarktouc
h.com
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1865 - Release Date: 12/28/2008
12:00 AM
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1865 - Release Date: 12/28/2008
12:00 AM
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