[stylist] reading lips

Wed Nov 18 21:48:13 UTC 2009

Helene, People are different.  People adapt and cope differently.  I know 
this woman.  I knew her as a girl and keep up with her through my friend. 
Sitting across the ocean, having never met this person, another person has 
no right evaluating what she can and cannot do.  I worked with a woman who 
is completely deaf.  I had many good discussions with Nancy.  Perhaps in 
other surroundings she signed, but I never saw her do that.  The other 
people in my agency didn't know how to sign.  Nancy was able to hold 
political discussions, agency discussions and talk about other things.  A 
wonderful woman.  I think all of us have to remember that as individuals we 
are in no position to evaluate others.  We all have our way of coping with 
life, and we can't expect our way to be the only way.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "helene ryles" <dreamavdb at googlemail.com>
To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [stylist] reading lips


> Judith,
> I'm sorry to doupt you but what you are saying is NOT PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE.
>
> A profoundly deaf person couldn't manage just with lipreading and have
> a happy fullfilling life. For a completely deaf person it really isn't
> possible. You are asking me to believe that your friend daughter leads
> a good life from a method that only allows her 20 percent of what is
> being said. Next you will be asking me to believe that a person who
> cannot see at all is happily managing with the printed word.
>
> I'm deaf myself. I know a lot of deaf people. Some who read lips, some
> who sign. All the people I know that can read lips do have some
> hearing although some not very much and have to rely on guesswork. I'm
> talking about profoundly deaf people here. They may use that system
> but it's not that easy for them. Even thought they may apear
> successful with it.
>
> For a totally deaf person I only know about one crediable source who
> used lipreading in conjunction with a system called tactalating where
> he felt people's throats to feel the vibrations. It gave him some much
> needed clues. He was hearing for the first 7 years of his life though.
> Although he says he manages with tactilating and lipreading, he
> probably has to do a lot of guessing too.
>
> I'm sorry if I come accross as rude. I don't mean to doubt the
> severity of your friends loss but what you are saying is not
> physically possible.
>
> Helene
>
> Helene
>
> On 18/11/2009, Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net> wrote:
>> Helene, I went back over this message and I'm wondering what you are 
>> talking
>> about.  My friend's daughter who is friends with a deaf girl?  My comment
>> about the age of seven being a cute age for kids?  If you are talking 
>> about
>> my friend's daughter's friend I know for a fact that she is totally deaf.
>> She manages her life very well.  She was a great student and graduated 
>> from
>> both high school and college with honors.  She is happily married with
>> children.  She lip reads and communicates via the spoken word.  Do her
>> husband and children sign?  Don't know and it's none of my business.  I 
>> know
>> myself that different people manage their handicaps differently.  Did her
>> parents make sure she learned to sign when she was a child?  Don't know.
>> They had the right to raise their child in a way they felt was best.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "helene ryles" <dreamavdb at googlemail.com>
>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 1:50 PM
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] reading lips
>>
>>
>>> Sorry Judith but somehow I doupt your friend is completely deaf if she
>>> maanages sucessfully with a system that would only provide her with 20
>>> percent of a conversation. That is just not enough to go by and be
>>> successful with it. My latest communicator guide is also deaf and uses
>>> speach methods she is really good at guessing, but sometimes she gets
>>> a message completely wrong and I wish she would use a differant method
>>> with me. Unfortuately as well as being deaf she is also a little
>>> computer shy so their is sometimes a break down in communication. She
>>> isn't profoundly deaf but it still happens because the method she uses
>>> involves so much guessing.
>>>
>>> People with profound hearing loss don't hear much, but some of them
>>> have hearing loss that falls within what's known as the speech banana.
>>> To master speech at a profound level takes a lot of speech reading
>>> lessons. Even then you have to do a major lot of guess work.
>>>
>>> My friend who has a 120 db loss (which is almost total) 'managed' with
>>> lipreading just with very powerful hearing aids and very very
>>> extensive speech therapy as a child.  She felt very isolated at
>>> school. She is now a teacher of the deaf at a singning deaf school.
>>> She prefers being with other signing deaf rather then being with
>>> hearing people. She wishes she had gone to a deaf school instead of to
>>> mainstream.
>>>
>>> She may have been able to apear successful as a speaking deaf person
>>> but she feels she didn't get full access using speech. She wants full
>>> access for all deaf children so nobody has to go through what she did.
>>>
>>> Helene.
>>>
>>> On 18/11/2009, Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net> wrote:
>>>> That's a fun age.  They're just getting the idea that they are real
>>>> people
>>>> and trying to act like they know everything but still have enough
>>>> childhood
>>>> left in them that they act like children most of the time.  It's a very
>>>> cute
>>>> age.  Enjoy them!
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Barbara Hammel" <poetlori8 at msn.com>
>>>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 11:32 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] reading lips
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Seven and a half.
>>>>> Barbara
>>>>> Snow is God's way of reminding us that beauty can be found even in the
>>>>> coldest hearts.
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>> From: "helene ryles" <dreamavdb at googlemail.com>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 3:52 PM
>>>>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] reading lips
>>>>>
>>>>>> Barbara: That sounds good. I know a few deafblind parents who have 
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> their kids signing to them in tactile sign language, Including  a
>>>>>> deafblind mother of a deafblind son. I think he has a head start on
>>>>>> most deafblind kids since she will have been signing right from the
>>>>>> start. He seems to be doing really well too.
>>>>>> How old are your twins?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Helene
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 17/11/2009, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I only have the twins.
>>>>>>> And the funny thing is that the one who uses them assumes that no 
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> see.  Because he always has to take my hands and show me, he takes
>>>>>>> everyone's hands.
>>>>>>> Barbara
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Snow is God's way of reminding us that beauty can be found even in 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> coldest hearts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> From: "helene ryles" <dreamavdb at googlemail.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 2:58 PM
>>>>>>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] reading lips
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Barbara: That sounds really good. Does that include your twins? Do
>>>>>>>> they use tactile baby signs. I've read an article about tactile 
>>>>>>>> baby
>>>>>>>> signs for blind babies. I read an interesting article about it once
>>>>>>>> which I linked but unfortunately it's a dud link now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Helene
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 17/11/2009, helene ryles <dreamavdb at googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Judith: Profoundly deaf doesn't always mean totally deaf. Some
>>>>>>>>> profoundly deaf can hear environmental noises with powerful 
>>>>>>>>> hearing
>>>>>>>>> aids. I could if I chose as I do have some hearing in my right 
>>>>>>>>> ear,
>>>>>>>>> but I also have recruitment so I choose to use a vibrating device 
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> alert me to noise instead.
>>>>>>>>> My friend who is profoundly deaf who does lipread does say that a
>>>>>>>>> lot
>>>>>>>>> of her childhood was taken over with speach therapy and she was
>>>>>>>>> denied
>>>>>>>>> signing. She learnt to sign as an adult and she feels she has
>>>>>>>>> benifited a lot from learning to sign.
>>>>>>>>> She had a brother who is also profoundly deaf. They tried to get 
>>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>>> to speak and lip read for 5 years before giving it up as a lost
>>>>>>>>> cause
>>>>>>>>> and sending him to deaf school.
>>>>>>>>> She teaches at a deaf school so she also gets a lot of kids who 
>>>>>>>>> come
>>>>>>>>> to her having failed lipreading who weren't taught sign language 
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> can't write either.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have nothing against deaf learning to lipread. I'm for a full 
>>>>>>>>> tool
>>>>>>>>> box apraoch. Learn everything that's going and drop whatever isn't
>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>> useful later on. You would need to understand deaf history of how 
>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>> many deaf were denied signing in an effort to force them to speak.
>>>>>>>>> That includes corprol punishement too when oralism was at it's
>>>>>>>>> hight,
>>>>>>>>> and they really did try to force deafblind to understand speech
>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>> the tandoma method. As a result of that it's gone completely 
>>>>>>>>> wheras
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> think it may have been useful for me when I stopped being able to
>>>>>>>>> lipread visually, instead of giving me mega powerful hearing aids
>>>>>>>>> which are responsible for my aversion to noise as an adult.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Helene
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 17/11/2009, Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> A friend of my friend's daughter is profoundly deaf.  She was 
>>>>>>>>>> born
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>>>> She is best friends with my friend's daughter who never had this
>>>>>>>>>> disability.
>>>>>>>>>> One day I was in the library (don't ask me why) and I heard, 
>>>>>>>>>> "Mrs.
>>>>>>>>>> Bron."
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> looked around and this girl saw me looking and said, "It's 
>>>>>>>>>> Channah.
>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>> over here."  I heard where she was and went over to her. I was 
>>>>>>>>>> able
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>>>>> hello, how are you etc and she understood me.  She said, "I'm 
>>>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>>>> for a
>>>>>>>>>> class project."  This girl, now married with her own family, had
>>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>> mainstreamed as a small child and did very well in school.
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "helene ryles" <dreamavdb at googlemail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 2:52 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] reading lips
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lori,
>>>>>>>>>> You are right that for a completely deaf person to rely 
>>>>>>>>>> exclusively
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> lipreading is not realistic. Most people who lipreading do have
>>>>>>>>>> hearing although some have very little of it. I know a woman with 
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> profound loss who lipreads but she says without her hearing aids
>>>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>>>> can't lipread so well. That's because only about 20 per cent of
>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>> is said can be seen on the lips. HOH people can combine their
>>>>>>>>>> limited
>>>>>>>>>> hearing with lipreading skills so they can be quite good at it 
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> most lipreaders do have some useful hearing to go by.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As for teaching hearing children signing, there is something 
>>>>>>>>>> called
>>>>>>>>>> baby signs. Some parents of hearing babies have found that their
>>>>>>>>>> babies can learn to communicate through sign before they learn
>>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>> speach. I'm all for it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is another way for a deaf and a hearing child to 
>>>>>>>>>> communicate
>>>>>>>>>> though and that is via pen and paper.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Helene
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 17/11/2009, LoriStay at aol.com <LoriStay at aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> An option is the way to go.   I took two sign courses at Helen
>>>>>>>>>>> Keller
>>>>>>>>>>> (National Center for the Deaf/blind), but because I have no 
>>>>>>>>>>> place
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> practice,
>>>>>>>>>>> had to let it go.
>>>>>>>>>>> Lori
>>>>>>>>>>> In a message dated 11/16/09 6:12:26 PM, jbron at optonline.net
>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I feel badly that not all deaf people can read lips. However,
>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>> make sign language a mandatory course for all American 
>>>>>>>>>>>> students?
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> think so. You can have it available as an option, but it
>>>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> mandatory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> stylist:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/dreamavdb%40googlemail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> stylist:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/jbron%40optonline.net
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> stylist:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/dreamavdb%40googlemail.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>>>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> stylist:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> stylist:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/dreamavdb%40googlemail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> stylist:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>
>>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> stylist:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/jbron%40optonline.net
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>
>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> stylist:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/dreamavdb%40googlemail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Writers Division web site:
>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org 
>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>
>>> stylist mailing list
>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> stylist:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/jbron%40optonline.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org 
>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>
>> stylist mailing list
>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> stylist:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/dreamavdb%40googlemail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
> stylist mailing list
> stylist at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> stylist:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/jbron%40optonline.net
>