[stylist] Resources on word count etc.

Thu Mar 25 17:43:42 UTC 2010

Hi Everyone,
I have some resources on the word count subject. I am copying my file 
below and will attach it. The .doc attachment has line breaks for the 
five separate entries for easier access, but some of them are more than 
one page. I have included the URLs. I don't remember ever reading 
anything about not copyrighting your material if you are looking for a 
publisher. I always assumed that, since you have to sign a contract 
giving them the copyright anyway, it doesn't make any difference. I will 
try to find out more later.

HTH,
Donna Hill

***

Articles on word count

1. Nathan Bransford - Literary Agent: Novel Word Count

http://blog.nathanbransford.com/2008/02/novel-word-count.html

Block quote

Tuesday, February 26, 2008

Novel Word Count

I'm not a stickler for word count. Yes, there are certain word count 
expectations for certain genres, some are stricter than others, you can 
look these up on the Internet if you're interested, but my modus 
operandi on word count is my usual refrain about writing: if it works it 
works.

Within reason. If your (adult) novel is less than 40,000 words you're in 
novella land (where publishers worry about how a bookstore is going to 
stock your book when it will have such a skinny spine). Children's 
novels are generally shorter, but shouldn't be TOO short. If your novel 
is going to be over 150,000 words and your name is not David Foster 
Wallace, Leo Tolstoy, or Vikram (Chandra or Seth), there had better be a 
darn good reason for it.

Well, in the last couple of weeks people have been just blowing me away 
with their word counts. They're so high I have a physical reaction, 
similar to what would happen if someone took a query beginning with a 
rhetorical question, attached it to a sledgehammer, and hit me across 
the head with it. We're talking LONG. Just in the past week alone: 
291,000 words, 223,470, 314,000 (first in a trilogy), 250,000, 213,000, 
and more!

PEOPLE. Not only do some agents automatically reject if your novel is 
too long (for the record I'm not one of them), you really have to ask 
yourself if you wrote that long of a novel because it was necessary and 
true to the story and you're able to keep the reader engaged over that 
huge length or because you need to take your laptop into the shop to fix 
the Backspace button.

Due in part to physical constrains (i.e. shelf space) and the resulting 
preference of national chains, some people in publishing feel there is a 
trend toward shorter books going on at the moment. While I don't 
advocate following trends too closely (all it would take is a couple of 
blockbuster doorstoppers to start a new trend), especially for a first 
novel you probably want to try to avoid giving people one easy reason to 
pass on your work.

Again, if it works it works, but the odds of it working when your debut 
novel is over 150,000 words drops dramatically.

Block quote end

2. Word count guidelines from the Fiction Factor:

http://www.fictionfactor.com/articles/wordcount.html

Block quote

How Long Should Your Story Be?

by Lee Masterson                                           

One common question asked by many writers is: "How long should my story be?"

The simplest answer is: As long as it takes to tell the whole story.

However, there are certain word lengths that editors prefer to see when 
submitting work.

Here is an approximate guideline for story lengths.

Micro-Fiction

 up to 100 words

This very abbreviated story is often difficult to write, and even harder 
to write well, but the markets for micro fiction are becoming 
increasingly popular in recent times. Publishers love them, as they take 
up almost no room and don't cost them their budgets. Pay rates are often 
low, but for so few words, the rate per word averages quite high.

Flash Fiction

 100 - 1,000 words

This is the type of short-short story you would expect to find in a 
glossy magazine, often used to fill one page of quick romance (or quick 
humor, in men's mags) Very popular, quick and easy to write, and easier 
to sell!

Short Story

 1,000 - 7,500 words

The 'regular' short story, usually found in periodicals or anthology 
collections. Most 'genre' zines will features works at this length.

Novellette

 7,500 - 20,000 words

Often a novellette-length work is difficult to sell to a publisher. It 
is considered too long for most publishers to insert comfortably into a 
magazine, yet too short for a novel. Generally, authors will piece 
together three or four novellette-length works into a compilation novel.

Novella

 20,000 - 50,000 words

Although most print publishers will balk at printing a novel this short, 
this is almost perfect for the electronic publishing market length. The 
online audience doesn't always have the time or the patience to sit 
through a 100,000 word novel. Alternatively, this is an acceptable 
length for a short work of non-fiction.

Novel

 50,000 -110,000

Most print publishers prefer a minimum word count of around 70,000 words 
for a first novel, and some even hesitate for any work shorter than 
80,000. Yet any piece of fiction climbing over the 110,000 word mark 
also tends to give editors some pause. They need to be sure they can 
produce a product that won't over-extend their budget, but still be 
enticing enough to readers to be saleable. Imagine paying good money for 
a book less than a quarter-inch thick?

Epics and Sequels

 Over 110,000 words

If your story extends too far over the 110,000 mark, perhaps consider 
where you could either condense the story to only include relevant 
details, or lengthen it to span out into a sequel, or perhaps even a 
trilogy. (Unless, of course, you're Stephen King - then it doesn't 
matter what length your manuscript is - a publisher is a little more 
lenient with an established author who has a well-established readership)

Page Counts

In most cases, industry standard preferred length is 250 words per 
page... so a 400 page novel would be at about 100,000 words. If you want 
to see what size book is selling in your genre, take a look on the 
shelves. If the average length is 300 pages, you're looking at a 75,000 
word manuscript (approximately)

One reason it's harder for a new author to sell a 140,000 word 
manuscript is the size of the book. A 500+ page book is going to take up 
the space of almost two, 300 page books on the shelves. It's also going 
to cost more for the publishers to produce, so unless the author is well 
known, the book stores aren't going to stock that many copies of the 
'door-stopper' novel as compared to the thinner novel.

Remember, these word- and page-counts are only estimated guides. Use 
your own common sense, and, where possible, check the guidelines of the 
publication you intend to submit your work to. Most publishers accepting 
shorter works will post their maximum preferred lengths, and novels are 
generally considered on the strength of the story itself, not on how 
many words you have squeezed into each chapter.

For lengths more specific to Children's books, please refer to Laura's 
article "Understanding Children's Writing Genres"

Block quote end

3. From a blog by an editorial assistant:

http://editorialass.blogspot.com/2009/06/is-there-word-count-cap-for-debut-novel.html

Block quote

Tuesday, June 09, 2009

is there a word count cap for a debut novel?

I got this note the other day:

"Hi Moonie,

Could you tell me - are there big word count issues for a first novel? 
Mine is accessible literary fiction. The thing is. it's edited down to 
135,000 words from approximately 150,000 words. I'm wondering if I've 
gotten it down to an acceptable size. My novel is a period piece, and it 
has required a good number of words to capture the characters as well as 
the place, period, and action. Does this sound all right to you? Am I in 
a reasonable ball park?

Thanks,

XXX"

Sorry, this is harder to hear than it is for me to say. Honestly, no, 
you're not in the ballpark, regardless of your topic--you'll get blanket 
rejections before people even look.

I would say that the absolute upper limit of OK is 100,000 for a debut 
novel, but you'll find some people turned off to it if it's anything 
above 80,000.

I'm not making these numbers up from my experience--I've read identical 
stats on a lot of agent blogs. It's pretty much an industry standard. 
But (with only a very few exceptions) I think you'll find in a survey of 
successful literary debut novels, the average page count is between 250 
and 400. Often, authors get really famous for longer opuses--but those 
aren't their debuts. Those are their second or third books.

There are practical reasons for this rule! It's not (entirely) that 
editors are close-minded pigs. The reason is 100,000 words casts off at 
about 480 typeset pages. That would make your book...well, a lot of 
pages--astronomically expensive to produce. Since literary fiction 
(particularly debuts) sell in smaller numbers than genre fiction, the 
potential profit margin on your book would be even lower than on another 
debut. Publishers would be very, very wary of the financial risk they 
were undertaking.

Furthermore, think of your audience--you're an unknown writer at the 
onset. But readers are probably going to be more willing to take a 
chance on you if the commitment is relatively small.

This is really hard for you, the author, in terms of your story, but 
what I would do is try to whittle it down for your submission. If an 
agent or later an editor is like, "awesome story, but why didn't you 
develop the romance between Billy and Matilda [or Craig or Alice or 
Pete] more?" then you can stick stuff back in.

Also, ask yourself if maybe you've written two books--can you strike out 
one element of this book and spin a whole other plot out of it? Might as 
well make all your hard work work for you.

One last word for the wise--I wish that all publishing was based on 
beautiful writing and wonderful ideas, not on marketability and 
production costs. I wish literature as the pure art and publishing as 
the industry had a little bit larger of an overlap. BUT. More content 
does not always mean better content. So please, revisers who read this 
and want to accuse me of being mercenary, please believe me when I say 
there are craft and readability issues central to this as well as 
production/money ones.

I don't mean this to apply to anyone in particular--and indeed, it may 
not apply to you--but try to keep in mind as you're revising that 
probably the most universal flaw in early-career writing is overwriting 
or over-inclusion of material.

I find that I, personally, feel less regretful about taking a knife to a 
manuscript (my own or someone else's) when I keep a separate document 
where I deposit everything I've parted with. There's no reason you can't 
use good material in something else later, and there's no reason you 
need it now (unless you NEED it now--and be honest with yourself about 
the difference between "need" and "really really want").

Hope this helps. Any thoughts out there in the blogosphere?

Posted by moonrat at

Block quote end

4. Guide to Literary Agents - Word Count for Novels and Children's 
Books: The Definitive Post: Note, under the heading More links are a 
gazillion links to other blogs by literary agents and other publishing 
industry professionals.

http://www.guidetoliteraryagents.com/blog/Word+Count+For+Novels+And+Childrens+Books+The+Definitive+Post.aspx

Block quote

Sunday, September 27, 2009

Word Count for Novels and Children's Books: The Definitive Post

Posted by Chuck

Word count is something I don't think about too often until I travel to 
a writers' conference, and then someone asks a simple, innocent question 
and a firestorm follows.  With that in mind, I've tried to put together 
the definitive post on word count for fiction (novels, young adult, 
middle grade and even memoir).

The most important thing here is to realize that there are always 
exceptions to these rules. And man, people love to point out 
exceptions---and they always will. However, if there is one thing I 
remember from when my wife dragged me kicking and screaming to He's Just 
Not That Into You, it's that you cannot count on being the exception; 
you must count on being the rule. Aiming to be the exception is setting 
yourself up for disappointment. What writers fail to see is that for 
every successful exception to the rule (e.g., a first-time 150,000-word 
novel), there are at least 100 failures if not 300.

Almost always, high word count means that the writer simply did not edit 
their work down enough. Or---it means they have two or more books 
combined into one.

"But what about JK Rowling???" asks that man in the back of the room, 
putting his palms up the air. Well---remember the first Harry Potter 
book?  It wasn't that long. After JK made the publishing house oodles 
and oodles of money, she could do whatever she wanted.  And since most 
writers haven't earned oodles, they need to stick to the rules and make 
sure they work gets read. The other thing that will make you an 
exception is if your writing is absolutely brilliant. But let's face it. 
Most of our work does not classify as "absolutely brilliant" or we'd all 
have 16 novels at this point.

ADULT NOVELS: COMMERCIAL & LITERARY

Between 80,000 and 89,999 words is a good range you should be aiming 
for. This is a 100% safe range for literary, romance, mystery, suspense, 
thriller and horror. Anything in this word count won't scare off any 
agent anywhere.

Now, speaking broadly, you can have as few as 71,000 words and as many 
as 109,000 words. That is the total range. When it dips below 80K, it 
might be perceived as too short---not giving the reader enough. It seems 
as though going over 100K is all right, but not by much. I suggest 
stopping at 109K because just the mental hurdle to jump concerning 110K 
is just another thing you don't want going against you. And, as agent 
Rachelle Gardner pointed out when discussing word count, over 110K is 
defined as "epic or saga." Chances are your cozy mystery or literary 
novel is not an epic. Rachelle also mentions that passing 100K in word 
count means it's a more expensive book to produce---hence agents' and 
editors' aversion to such lengths.

In short:

      80,000 - 89,999:       Totally cool

      90,000 - 99,999:       Generally safe

      70,000 - 79,999:       Might be too short; probably all right

      100,000 - 109,999:    Might be too long; probably all right

      Below 70,000:           Too short

      110,000 or above       Too long

Chick lit falls into this realm, but chick lit books tend to be a bit 
shorter and faster. 70-75K is not bad at all.

SCI-FI AND FANTASY

Science fiction and fantasy are the big exceptions because these 
categories tend to run long. It has to do with all the descriptions and 
world-building in the writing.

With these genres, I would say 100,000 - 115,000 is an excellent range.  
It's six-figures long, but not real long. The thing is: Writers tend to 
know that these categories run long so they make them run really long 
and hurt their chances. There's nothing wrong with keeping it short 
(say, 105K) in these areas. It shows that you can whittle your work down.

Outside of that, I would say 90K-100K is most likely all right, and 
115-124K is probably all right, too. That said, try to keep it in the 
ideal range.

MIDDLE GRADE

Middle grade is from 20,000 - 45,000, depending on the subject matter 
and age range. When writing a longer book that is aimed at 12-year-olds 
(and could maybe be considered "tween"), using the term "upper middle 
grade" is advisable. With upper middle grade, you can aim for 32,000 - 
40,000 words. These are books that resemble young adult in matter and 
storytelling, but still tend to stick to MG themes and avoid hot-button, 
YA-acceptable themes such as sex, drugs and rock & roll.  You can stray 
a little over here but not much.

With a simpler middle grade idea (Football Hero or Jenny Jones and the 
Cupcake Mystery), aim lower.  Shoot for 20,000 - 30,000 words.

YOUNG ADULT

Perhaps more than any other, YA is the one category where word count is 
very flexible.

For starters, 55,000 - 69,999 is a great range. 

The word round the agent blogosphere is that these books tend to 
trending longer, saying that you can top in the 80Ks. However, this 
progression is still in motion and, personally, I'm not sure about this. 
I would say you're playing with fire the higher you go.  When it gets 
into the 70s, you may be all right---but you have to have a reason for 
going that high. Again, higher word counts usually mean that the writer 
does not know how to edit themselves.

A good reason to have a longer YA novel that tops out at the high end of 
the scale is if it's science fiction or fantasy. Once again, these 
categories are expected to be a little longer because of the world-building.

Concerning the low end, below 55K could be all right but I wouldn't drop 
much below about 47K.

PICTURE BOOKS

The standard is text for 32 pages. That might mean one line per page, or 
more. 500-600 words is a good number to aim for. When it gets closer to 
1,000, editors and agents may shy away.

WESTERNS

I remember reading some Westerns in high school and, if I recall 
correctly, they weren't terribly long. There wasn't a whole about this 
on agent and editor sites, but from what I found, these can be anywhere 
from 50K to 80K. 60,000 is a solid number to aim for.

MEMOIR

Memoir is the same as a novel and that means you're aiming for 
80,000-89,999. However, keep in mind when we talked about how people 
don't know how to edit their work. This is specially true in memoir, 
I've found, because people tend to write everything about their 
life---because it all really happened.

Coming in a bit low (70-79K) is not a terrible thing, as it shows you 
know how to focus on the most interesting parts of your life and avoid a 
Bill-Clinton-esque tome-length book. At the same time, you may want to 
consider the high end of memoir at 99,999. Again, it's a mental thing 
seeing a six-figure length memoir.

SOME THOUGHTS

You have agents like Nathan Bransford and Kristin Nelson who say that 
you shouldn't think about word count, but rather you should think about 
pacing and telling the best story possible---and don't worry about the 
length. Yes, they're right, but the fact is: Not every agent feels that 
way and is willing to give a 129,000-word novel a shot. Agents have so 
many queries that they are looking for reasons to say no. They are 
looking for mistakes, chinks in the armor, to cut their query stack down 
by one. And if you adopt the mentality that your book has to be long, 
then you are giving them ammunition to reject you. Take your chances and 
hope that excellent writing will see your baby through no matter (and I 
hope it does indeed break through).

But I believe that we cannot count on being the exception; we must count 
on being the rule. That's the best way to give yourself your best shot 
at succeeding.

5. . Word count for Harry Potter novels from Yahoo Answers, 2008

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071227070311AAOUdEO

Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone - 76,944 words

Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets - 85,141 words

Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban - 107,253 words

Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire - 190,637 words

Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix - 257,045 words

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince - 168,923

Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Approximately 198,227, the 
Scholastic count has yet to be announced.

Block quote end

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