[stylist] Story of hoodlum/word limit

Tue Jan 11 22:12:15 UTC 2011

JC and others,

Descriptive language and imagery are the meat of creative writing.
Replacing words with strong verbs and nouns creates a much more vivid
picture.  I am always told to watch the use of adverbs, replacing with
strong verbs.  It is difficult, but the result is usually a much better
written piece.

Including unnecessary info is different than using descriptive language
even if it ends up being more wordy.

Writing, I find, is not the hard part, it is the revision process!
*smile*

Bridgit

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Subject: stylist Digest, Vol 81, Issue 18

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Today's Topics:

   1. Story of hoodlums (Bridgit Pollpeter)
   2. Story of hoodlums (Bridgit Pollpeter)
   3. Re: Story of hoodlums/word limit (LoriStay at aol.com)
   4. Re: Story of hoodlums/word limit (Judith Bron)
   5. Re: Story of hoodlums (James H. "Jim" Canaday M.A. N6YR)
   6. Re: Story of hoodlums (James H. "Jim" Canaday M.A. N6YR)
   7. Re: Story of hoodlums/word limit
      (James H. "Jim" Canaday M.A. N6YR)
   8. Re: Story of hoodlums/word limit
      (James H. "Jim" Canaday M.A. N6YR)
   9. Re: stylist Digest, Vol 81, Issue 17 (Kerry Thompson)
  10. Re: Story of hoodlums/word limit (Judith Bron)
  11. Re: stylist Digest, Vol 81, Issue 17 (Donna Hill)
  12. Re: Story of hoodlums/word limit
      (James H. "Jim" Canaday M.A. N6YR)
  13. Re: stylist Digest, Vol 81, Issue 17 (Kerry Thompson)
  14. Re: stylist Digest, Vol 81, Issue 17
      (James H. "Jim" Canaday M.A. N6YR)
  15. White space and other tactics (Robert Leslie Newman)
  16. Re: White space and other tactics (Anita Adkins)
  17. Re: White space and other tactics (LoriStay at aol.com)
  18. Re: Story of hoodlums/choice of verbs (LoriStay at aol.com)
  19. Re: Story of hoodlums/word limit (LoriStay at aol.com)
  20. Re: Story of hoodlums/word limit (LoriStay at aol.com)
  21. Check out latest Live Well blog (Bridgit Pollpeter)
  22. Re: Check out latest Live Well blog (Joe Orozco)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 12:56:27 -0600
From: Bridgit Pollpeter <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
To: <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [stylist] Story of hoodlums
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP17A91A1E4C58A7200F7ADDC40E0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

JC,

I really liked the beginning, too, of your story.  That imagery just
sets the whole piece up.

Exercises can really be as long as short as you want, but for this list,
I guess shorter is better!  *smile*  When a piece is growing, try
replacing some of the "tell" with "show."  Great little story
though--nice mood and setting too.

Transitions can be tricky.  For screen reading users, adding something
like at the police station wouldn't hurt, but, at least the way I have
been taught, that white space is enough to indicate change with out
stating in the language.  Although, at some point you want to establish
location.  Good suggestion to add that in.

Bridgit

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 13:17:40 -0600
From: Bridgit Pollpeter <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
To: <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [stylist] Story of hoodlums
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP21F7D516B9FF7144384D1AC40E0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

You have a great mood established.  Maybe concentrate on more action.
The pacing moves quickly in the beginning with Sean running into
danger--maybe keep this pacing through the entire piece, though it isn't
bad as is.

Don't bog the narrative down with mentioning proper names too much.  A
lot of the time, you can replace names with he or him without confusing
reader.

I don't like to rewrite sentences, but one line keeps jumping out at me.
"But as he heard himself shout this, he heard it shouted in his own face
twenty-six years before with a stab in his heart."  The way this reads
is that Brendan was literally stabbed in the heart while being shouted
at.  The sentence is a little mucky too.  Maybe try something like,
"With a jolt to his heart, he remembered twenty-six years ago when a
Knob Hill dandy shouted the same words, looking down his nose at a
smudged face, street-tough Joey Brandon."  Also, if you state his name
in this sentence, not necessary to repeat it in the following narration.

Watch for clear, precise language with each sentence, but you have a
knack for the time period.  Stick to clear images too because I notice
this as a strong suit for you.  Over all, this little exercise is good
and has potential for something bigger.

Bridgit

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 16:12:59 EST
From: LoriStay at aol.com
To: stylist at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [stylist] Story of hoodlums/word limit
Message-ID: <4f13b.21b93397.3a5cd05b at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"

Being a novelist, I know what you mean by having trouble limiting to 500

words!
Lori
In a message dated 1/9/11 7:34:31 PM, n6yr at sunflower.com writes:

> p.s. I did try to emphasize not exactly the opulence but the power of 
> Joab St. Brendan by how he ordered that the uniform be cleaned in? his

> hotel.? and later the reference to the cigars.
> 
> easily this could've been a 1250-word story.
> jc
> 
> 

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 16:27:54 -0500
From: Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net>
To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] Story of hoodlums/word limit
Message-ID: <352E34B7511B498C90F0CD25BC8DE657 at dell5150>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
	reply-type=original

There's a lot that's difficult about being a novelist.  If only a
publisher 
would buy a book that started out with, "Once upon a time" and ended
with, 
"And they all lived happily ever after."  The in between space could be 
dedicated to sleeping.  But that's not being a novelist.  Lori had the
best 
advice for cutting down the word count in a story.  Lori, correct me if
I'm 
wrong, but she advised taking out everything that didn't advance the
plot. 
Judith
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <LoriStay at aol.com>
To: <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [stylist] Story of hoodlums/word limit

Being a novelist, I know what you mean by having trouble limiting to 500
words! Lori In a message dated 1/9/11 7:34:31 PM, n6yr at sunflower.com
writes:

> p.s. I did try to emphasize not exactly the opulence but the power of 
> Joab St. Brendan by how he ordered that the uniform be cleaned in his 
> hotel. and later the reference to the cigars.
>
> easily this could've been a 1250-word story.
> jc
>
>
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 17:30:21 -0600
From: "James H. \"Jim\" Canaday M.A. N6YR" <n6yr at sunflower.com>
To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] Story of hoodlums
Message-ID: <201101102330.p0ANURH7016968 at smtp.sunflower.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

thanks Bridgit.
I enjoyed writing for this.
jc

At 12:56 PM 1/10/2011, you wrote:
>JC,
>
>I really liked the beginning, too, of your story.  That imagery just 
>sets the whole piece up.
>
>Exercises can really be as long as short as you want, but for this 
>list, I guess shorter is better!  *smile*  When a piece is growing, try

>replacing some of the "tell" with "show."  Great little story 
>though--nice mood and setting too.
>
>Transitions can be tricky.  For screen reading users, adding something 
>like at the police station wouldn't hurt, but, at least the way I have 
>been taught, that white space is enough to indicate change with out 
>stating in the language.  Although, at some point you want to establish

>location.  Good suggestion to add that in.
>
>Bridgit
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Writers Division web site:
>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org 
><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
>stylist mailing list
>stylist at nfbnet.org 
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>stylist: 
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/n6yr%40sunflow
>er.com

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 17:34:14 -0600
From: "James H. \"Jim\" Canaday M.A. N6YR" <n6yr at sunflower.com>
To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] Story of hoodlums
Message-ID: <201101102334.p0ANYLQP017344 at smtp.sunflower.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

yes, that was what I was asking about.  that's a good suggestion. my
first phrase there was actually "knob hill swell" but changed to 
"dandy" because thought some might not know the antiquated meaning of 
"swell."

thank you.  I have studied some writers who are good at imagery and 
clear concise imagery really matters.
yes, this could've been a longer story, I saw at least three ways 
this could have become a lengthy short story.
thanks for the feedback Bridgit.
jc

At 01:17 PM 1/10/2011, you wrote:
>You have a great mood established.  Maybe concentrate on more action. 
>The pacing moves quickly in the beginning with Sean running into 
>danger--maybe keep this pacing through the entire piece, though it 
>isn't bad as is.
>
>Don't bog the narrative down with mentioning proper names too much.  A 
>lot of the time, you can replace names with he or him without confusing

>reader.
>
>I don't like to rewrite sentences, but one line keeps jumping out at 
>me. "But as he heard himself shout this, he heard it shouted in his own

>face twenty-six years before with a stab in his heart."  The way this 
>reads is that Brendan was literally stabbed in the heart while being 
>shouted at.  The sentence is a little mucky too.  Maybe try something 
>like, "With a jolt to his heart, he remembered twenty-six years ago 
>when a Knob Hill dandy shouted the same words, looking down his nose at

>a smudged face, street-tough Joey Brandon."  Also, if you state his 
>name in this sentence, not necessary to repeat it in the following 
>narration.
>
>Watch for clear, precise language with each sentence, but you have a 
>knack for the time period.  Stick to clear images too because I notice 
>this as a strong suit for you.  Over all, this little exercise is good 
>and has potential for something bigger.
>
>Bridgit
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Writers Division web site:
>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org 
><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
>stylist mailing list
>stylist at nfbnet.org 
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>stylist: 
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/n6yr%40sunflow
>er.com

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 17:36:50 -0600
From: "James H. \"Jim\" Canaday M.A. N6YR" <n6yr at sunflower.com>
To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] Story of hoodlums/word limit
Message-ID: <201101102336.p0ANavlC017593 at smtp.sunflower.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

indeed you do lori!
should I have a nymph or sprite show up in this old san francisco
landscape? jc

At 03:12 PM 1/10/2011, you wrote:
>Being a novelist, I know what you mean by having trouble limiting to 
>500 words! Lori
>In a message dated 1/9/11 7:34:31 PM, n6yr at sunflower.com writes:
>
>
> > p.s. I did try to emphasize not exactly the opulence but the power 
> > of Joab St. Brendan by how he ordered that the uniform be cleaned in

> > his hotel.  and later the reference to the cigars.
> >
> > easily this could've been a 1250-word story.
> > jc
> >
> >
>_______________________________________________
>Writers Division web site:
>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org 
><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
>stylist mailing list
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>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>stylist: 
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>er.com

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 17:39:46 -0600
From: "James H. \"Jim\" Canaday M.A. N6YR" <n6yr at sunflower.com>
To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] Story of hoodlums/word limit
Message-ID: <201101102339.p0ANdr1s017884 at smtp.sunflower.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

indeed,
that's the first question I ask myself when I am reading over the 
composition with an eye to editing or shortening.  but I have to 
balance with imagery and effect.
I could write:
He ran into the house.
or for the emotional place in the story, need of the character, etc., 
maybe it is better to say:
looking anxiously over his shoulder, he suddenly ran into the house 
for shelter.

jc

At 03:27 PM 1/10/2011, you wrote:
>There's a lot that's difficult about being a novelist.  If only a
>publisher would buy a book that started out with, "Once upon a time" 
>and ended with, "And they all lived happily ever after."  The in 
>between space could be dedicated to sleeping.  But that's not being 
>a novelist.  Lori had the best advice for cutting down the word 
>count in a story.  Lori, correct me if I'm wrong, but she advised 
>taking out everything that didn't advance the plot. Judith
>----- Original Message ----- From: <LoriStay at aol.com>
>To: <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 4:12 PM
>Subject: Re: [stylist] Story of hoodlums/word limit
>
>
>Being a novelist, I know what you mean by having trouble limiting to 
>500 words! Lori
>In a message dated 1/9/11 7:34:31 PM, n6yr at sunflower.com writes:
>
>
>>p.s. I did try to emphasize not exactly the opulence but the power of 
>>Joab St. Brendan by how he ordered that the uniform be cleaned in his 
>>hotel. and later the reference to the cigars.
>>
>>easily this could've been a 1250-word story.
>>jc
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Writers Division web site:
>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org 
><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
>stylist mailing list
>stylist at nfbnet.org 
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>stylist: 
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/jbron%40optonl
>ine.net
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Writers Division web site:
>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org 
><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
>stylist mailing list
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>er.com

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 18:41:46 -0500
From: Kerry Thompson <kethompson1964 at gmail.com>
To: stylist at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [stylist] stylist Digest, Vol 81, Issue 17
Message-ID: <4D2B993A.20909 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Bridgit,

Style is very much an individual thing. It seems to me, though, that to 
some extent too, it is generational or at least goes in cycles, not to 
say fads. As far as I can tell, white space rather than actual, written 
transitions, came into widespread use only in the last thirty to 
thirty-five years or so. Sure, I use it occasionally, but being a 
conservative old fogy, I tend to look for more, hmmm, organic 
transitions. As you say, it's purely a matter of style.

I still think, though, that white space needs to be handled with care. 
Unless you actually print out the piece yourself, you have no way of 
knowing how or whether the mail reader or web browser or fax machine you

send the manuscript to will render it as you intend. And, how can you be

sure, when your piece is published, that your white space will fall just

where you intend? What if it falls at the end of a page? The reader 
won't even know it's supposed to be there. I guess all I'm saying is, 
white space is in fashion just now, but it hasn't always been and won't 
always be. As with any fashion, you need to approach it with caution and

employ it with moderation.

 From a purely writerly point of view, I personally prefer written 
transitions. It goes back to clarity, I guess. The tried and true, 
"Meanwhile, back at the ranch..." type transition leaves no doubt in the

reader's mind that a transition is coming. You can gussy it up a bit, 
integrating it into the narration like this:

Janet sneezed again as she glumly stared out her window, wondering how 
Billy would manage without her.

At that moment, he was shimmying over Mrs. Jones' back fence. He 
waspleased and excited to be on his own, but sorry Janet wouldn't be 
there to see his triumph.

As to your story specifically, some sort of tying together of the high 
school thread with the police station thread would be helpful IMO. Is 
this the same school the retiring cop attended fifty years ago? Is it 
the school his granddaughter attends? Is there some connection between 
him and the blind girl in the first section? Again, I know the 
kaleidoscopic style, where none of the storylines of a story or novel 
ever intersect, is fashionable just now. But, I like connections. To me,

a story with connections is easier to follow and more enjoyable to read 
than one in which each storyline is isolated from the others.

As to your question about how much, as blind writers, we should pander 
to the needs of screen readers: That's not how I look at it. We as blind

and visually impaired writers perceive the world in a fundamentally 
different way than do fully sighted writers. Even those of us with a 
fair amount of eyesight, like myself, and who tend to be pretty visual 
in our writing, also like myself, use nonvisual queues, notice nonvisual

input that the sighted writer is scarcely aware of. So, why not make use

of these details? Why not write about the world as we perceive it? Doing

that, we will not only make our work easier for our blind readers to 
read, whether they access it audibly or through braille, but we will 
also give our sighted readers a richer experience of our created world 
than they might otherwise have.

I'm not saying to make special concessions for our blind readers, I'm 
just saying to be true to our identity and unique perspective as blind 
writers. If that means using more dialogue tags than might currently be 
in vogue, that's fine. If itmeans writing transitional passages rather 
than relying on white space or asterisks, fine. We aren't in competition

with sighted writers. At least, we don't have to out-cool them with 
their current fads. We have to be the best damned writers we can be. 
And, if that means maybe being just a little old fashioned, just a 
little square but clear, easy to read, fun to read, then that's all
right.

Kerry

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 19:02:09 -0500
From: Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net>
To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] Story of hoodlums/word limit
Message-ID: <43E55232AEEB471DBB556441EF3436FE at dell5150>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
	reply-type=response

Your sentence makes sense, but I have to see it within the context of a 
paragraph in the story.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James H. "Jim" Canaday M.A. N6YR" <n6yr at sunflower.com>
To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [stylist] Story of hoodlums/word limit

> indeed,
> that's the first question I ask myself when I am reading over the
> composition with an eye to editing or shortening.  but I have to
balance 
> with imagery and effect.
> I could write:
> He ran into the house.
> or for the emotional place in the story, need of the character, etc., 
> maybe it is better to say:
> looking anxiously over his shoulder, he suddenly ran into the house
for 
> shelter.
>
> jc
>
> At 03:27 PM 1/10/2011, you wrote:
>>There's a lot that's difficult about being a novelist.  If only a
>>publisher would buy a book that started out with, "Once upon a time"
and 
>>ended with, "And they all lived happily ever after."  The in between
space 
>>could be dedicated to sleeping.  But that's not being a novelist.
Lori 
>>had the best advice for cutting down the word count in a story.  Lori,

>>correct me if I'm wrong, but she advised taking out everything that
didn't 
>>advance the plot. Judith
>>----- Original Message ----- From: <LoriStay at aol.com>
>>To: <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 4:12 PM
>>Subject: Re: [stylist] Story of hoodlums/word limit
>>
>>
>>Being a novelist, I know what you mean by having trouble limiting to 
>>500 words! Lori
>>In a message dated 1/9/11 7:34:31 PM, n6yr at sunflower.com writes:
>>
>>
>>>p.s. I did try to emphasize not exactly the opulence but the power of

>>>Joab St. Brendan by how he ordered that the uniform be cleaned in his

>>>hotel. and later the reference to the cigars.
>>>
>>>easily this could've been a 1250-word story.
>>>jc
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Writers Division web site: http://www.nfb-writers-division.org 
>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>
>>stylist mailing list
>>stylist at nfbnet.org 
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>stylist:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/jbron%40opton
line.net
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Writers Division web site: http://www.nfb-writers-division.org 
>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>
>>stylist mailing list
>>stylist at nfbnet.org 
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>stylist:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/n6yr%40sunflo
wer.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
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------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 19:11:24 -0500
From: Donna Hill <penatwork at epix.net>
To: cosmoscat at earthlink.net, 	Writer's Division Mailing List
	<stylist at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Kerry Thompson <kethompson1964 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [stylist] stylist Digest, Vol 81, Issue 17
Message-ID: <4D2BA02C.1010302 at epix.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Kerry, Bridget and all,
I want to throw out a third possibility in the   transitional narration 
vs white space debate. How about a little of both? When I was writing my

novel, there were many occasions when I did not want to start a new 
chapter, but time had passed between paragraphs. I felt that, even 
though it was clearly indicated in the first sentence of the next 
paragraph that we were no longer in writing class or that a week had 
gone by, I didn't feel like it was enough, so in went an extra line 
break. I don't do it all the time, but when the scene is drastically 
different or the amount of time that has passed seems to indicate a 
pause, I like the white space.

I must say that in Bridget's piece, I was reading line by line, and 
there were so many blank lines after every paragraph that I didn't 
notice that there was actually more white space at the transition in 
question. I don't know what happens when we copy things into our 
e-mails, but I have had cause to wonder before about extra line breaks 
being inserted by the electronic demons.

Donna

Read Donna's articles on
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www.suite101.com/profile.cfm/donna_hill
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Performing Arts Division of the National Federation of the Blind:
www.padnfb.org

On 1/10/2011 6:41 PM, Kerry Thompson wrote:
> Bridgit,
>
> Style is very much an individual thing. It seems to me, though, that
> to some extent too, it is generational or at least goes in cycles, not

> to say fads. As far as I can tell, white space rather than actual, 
> written transitions, came into widespread use only in the last thirty 
> to thirty-five years or so. Sure, I use it occasionally, but being a 
> conservative old fogy, I tend to look for more, hmmm, organic 
> transitions. As you say, it's purely a matter of style.
>
> I still think, though, that white space needs to be handled with care.
> Unless you actually print out the piece yourself, you have no way of 
> knowing how or whether the mail reader or web browser or fax machine 
> you send the manuscript to will render it as you intend. And, how can 
> you be sure, when your piece is published, that your white space will 
> fall just where you intend? What if it falls at the end of a page? The

> reader won't even know it's supposed to be there. I guess all I'm 
> saying is, white space is in fashion just now, but it hasn't always 
> been and won't always be. As with any fashion, you need to approach it

> with caution and employ it with moderation.
>
> From a purely writerly point of view, I personally prefer written
> transitions. It goes back to clarity, I guess. The tried and true, 
> "Meanwhile, back at the ranch..." type transition leaves no doubt in 
> the reader's mind that a transition is coming. You can gussy it up a 
> bit, integrating it into the narration like this:
>
> Janet sneezed again as she glumly stared out her window, wondering how
> Billy would manage without her.
>
> At that moment, he was shimmying over Mrs. Jones' back fence. He
> waspleased and excited to be on his own, but sorry Janet wouldn't be 
> there to see his triumph.
>
> As to your story specifically, some sort of tying together of the high
> school thread with the police station thread would be helpful IMO. Is 
> this the same school the retiring cop attended fifty years ago? Is it 
> the school his granddaughter attends? Is there some connection between

> him and the blind girl in the first section? Again, I know the 
> kaleidoscopic style, where none of the storylines of a story or novel 
> ever intersect, is fashionable just now. But, I like connections. To 
> me, a story with connections is easier to follow and more enjoyable to

> read than one in which each storyline is isolated from the others.
>
> As to your question about how much, as blind writers, we should pander
> to the needs of screen readers: That's not how I look at it. We as 
> blind and visually impaired writers perceive the world in a 
> fundamentally different way than do fully sighted writers. Even those 
> of us with a fair amount of eyesight, like myself, and who tend to be 
> pretty visual in our writing, also like myself, use nonvisual queues, 
> notice nonvisual input that the sighted writer is scarcely aware of. 
> So, why not make use of these details? Why not write about the world 
> as we perceive it? Doing that, we will not only make our work easier 
> for our blind readers to read, whether they access it audibly or 
> through braille, but we will also give our sighted readers a richer 
> experience of our created world than they might otherwise have.
>
> I'm not saying to make special concessions for our blind readers, I'm
> just saying to be true to our identity and unique perspective as blind

> writers. If that means using more dialogue tags than might currently 
> be in vogue, that's fine. If itmeans writing transitional passages 
> rather than relying on white space or asterisks, fine. We aren't in 
> competition with sighted writers. At least, we don't have to out-cool 
> them with their current fads. We have to be the best damned writers we

> can be. And, if that means maybe being just a little old fashioned, 
> just a little square but clear, easy to read, fun to read, then that's

> all right.
>
> Kerry
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site: http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
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------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 21:37:35 -0600
From: "James H. \"Jim\" Canaday M.A. N6YR" <n6yr at sunflower.com>
To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] Story of hoodlums/word limit
Message-ID: <201101110337.p0B3bgMR005262 at smtp.sunflower.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

indeed Judith,
another important issue is what is around your sentence.  perhaps a 
short snappy sentence is good because you don't want to overshadow 
the blockbuster that's coming soon.
or maybe you've just exausted the reader's tolerance for adjectives 
and the simple sentence is comforting?
jc

At 06:02 PM 1/10/2011, you wrote:
>Your sentence makes sense, but I have to see it within the context
>of a paragraph in the story.
>----- Original Message ----- From: "James H. "Jim" Canaday M.A. 
>N6YR" <n6yr at sunflower.com>
>To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 6:39 PM
>Subject: Re: [stylist] Story of hoodlums/word limit
>
>
>>indeed,
>>that's the first question I ask myself when I am reading over the
>>composition with an eye to editing or shortening.  but I have to 
>>balance with imagery and effect.
>>I could write:
>>He ran into the house.
>>or for the emotional place in the story, need of the character, 
>>etc., maybe it is better to say:
>>looking anxiously over his shoulder, he suddenly ran into the house 
>>for shelter.
>>
>>jc
>>
>>At 03:27 PM 1/10/2011, you wrote:
>>>There's a lot that's difficult about being a novelist.  If only a
>>>publisher would buy a book that started out with, "Once upon a 
>>>time" and ended with, "And they all lived happily ever 
>>>after."  The in between space could be dedicated to sleeping.  But 
>>>that's not being a novelist.  Lori had the best advice for cutting 
>>>down the word count in a story.  Lori, correct me if I'm wrong, 
>>>but she advised taking out everything that didn't advance the plot.
Judith
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: <LoriStay at aol.com>
>>>To: <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 4:12 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [stylist] Story of hoodlums/word limit
>>>
>>>
>>>Being a novelist, I know what you mean by having trouble limiting to 
>>>500 words! Lori
>>>In a message dated 1/9/11 7:34:31 PM, n6yr at sunflower.com writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>p.s. I did try to emphasize not exactly the opulence but the power 
>>>>of Joab St. Brendan by how he ordered that the uniform be cleaned in

>>>>his hotel. and later the reference to the cigars.
>>>>
>>>>easily this could've been a 1250-word story.
>>>>jc
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Writers Division web site: http://www.nfb-writers-division.org 
>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>
>>>stylist mailing list
>>>stylist at nfbnet.org 
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>for stylist:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/jbron%40opto
nline.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Writers Division web site: http://www.nfb-writers-division.org 
>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>
>>>stylist mailing list
>>>stylist at nfbnet.org 
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>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>for stylist:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/n6yr%40sunfl
ower.com
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Writers Division web site: http://www.nfb-writers-division.org 
>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>
>>stylist mailing list
>>stylist at nfbnet.org 
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>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>for stylist:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/jbron%40opton
line.net
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Writers Division web site:
>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org 
><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
>stylist mailing list
>stylist at nfbnet.org 
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>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
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>er.com

------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 23:37:21 -0500
From: Kerry Thompson <kethompson1964 at gmail.com>
To: stylist at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [stylist] stylist Digest, Vol 81, Issue 17
Message-ID: <4D2BDE81.6070001 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Jim,

lol. You and I both have difficulty with 500 words or less. In my own 
case I think of the problem, rather inelegantly, as diarrhea of the pen.

I once tackled a writing exercise from a book. The instructions said to 
write one paragraph to one page. I wrote four pages before crashing. 
Mind you, I've never regretted it. Those four pages are the germ from 
which Marooner's Haven has grown. But, still, it illustrates the point. 
Brevity and I don't play well together. *grin*

BTW if you decide to expand the story, I'd love to see the result.

Though you directed your question to Bridgit, I'm going to stick my oar 
in too. If I were to revise this paragraph, I'd take out the phrase, 
"reprimanding Sean." Removing this phrase tightens and strengthens the 
paragraph IMO.

You wrote:

"yes, Dennis Day could play Sean I think."

And, who to play the great St Brendan? James Cagney, maybe?

Donna's got an idea, there. Another story about Sean, ormaybe another 
chapter in a novel? It can happen. My dragon Christmas stories started 
out as just stories, connected by being about the same characters. But, 
when I asked Robert to read the series, he said it looks suspiciously 
like a novel to him. So, if you accumulate enough stories about Sean...

Kerry

------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 23:11:56 -0600
From: "James H. \"Jim\" Canaday M.A. N6YR" <n6yr at sunflower.com>
To: cosmoscat at earthlink.net,	"Writer's Division Mailing List"
	<stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] stylist Digest, Vol 81, Issue 17
Message-ID: <201101110512.p0B5C3ld010898 at smtp.sunflower.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

thanks Kerry,
yes, I think of it like this.  inside my head are these giant 
oversized wheels and gears.  once they get cranking,  they just can't 
stop at 500-words, LOL!
I did struggle over the use of "reprimand."

and you and I are indeed on the same wavelength, Cagney was the first 
one I thought of to play  the former hoodlum turned great man. three
ways could expand the story that occurred to me: as noted by bridgit,
St. Brendan finds out why Sean got so muddy and 
decides to do something about street toughs in san francisco.  of 
course this connects more to his own history.  vaguely I think there 
were a couple of movies in the 40's made related to this theme, one 
involved boxing I think.
second, we more follow Sean himself who has been so exemplary but 
falls into the trouble with the hoodlums again.  however, because of 
the incident in my story as just presented, St. Brendan has been 
following Sean's life secretly and is able to save him from some 
great danger.

third, does the great man have a wife or family member who knows his 
true history?  his wife learns of the event in my story just 
presented.  and helps the great man to freely admit who he really is 
and where he really came from.  freeing him from hiding his own 
hoodlum past, and in the process he transforms san francisco society 
and culture.  in this scenario his wife would be quite a hero indeed.

but like I said, in my head there are these giant wheels and gears ...

thanks Kerry.   your Marooner series sure did look good what I read.
jc

At 10:37 PM 1/10/2011, you wrote:
>Jim,
>
>lol. You and I both have difficulty with 500 words or less. In my
>own case I think of the problem, rather inelegantly, as diarrhea of 
>the pen. I once tackled a writing exercise from a book. The 
>instructions said to write one paragraph to one page. I wrote four 
>pages before crashing. Mind you, I've never regretted it. Those four 
>pages are the germ from which Marooner's Haven has grown. But, 
>still, it illustrates the point. Brevity and I don't play well
together. *grin*
>
>BTW if you decide to expand the story, I'd love to see the result.
>
>Though you directed your question to Bridgit, I'm going to stick my
>oar in too. If I were to revise this paragraph, I'd take out the 
>phrase, "reprimanding Sean." Removing this phrase tightens and 
>strengthens the paragraph IMO.
>
>You wrote:
>
>"yes, Dennis Day could play Sean I think."
>
>And, who to play the great St Brendan? James Cagney, maybe?
>
>Donna's got an idea, there. Another story about Sean, ormaybe
>another chapter in a novel? It can happen. My dragon Christmas 
>stories started out as just stories, connected by being about the 
>same characters. But, when I asked Robert to read the series, he 
>said it looks suspiciously like a novel to him. So, if you 
>accumulate enough stories about Sean...
>
>Kerry
>_______________________________________________
>Writers Division web site:
>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org 
><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
>stylist mailing list
>stylist at nfbnet.org 
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>stylist: 
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/n6yr%40sunflow
>er.com

------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 04:41:45 -0600
From: "Robert Leslie Newman" <newmanrl at cox.net>
To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [stylist] White space and other tactics
Message-ID: <057b01cbb17c$24b7d6c0$6e278440$@cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

I'm reading a novel, got it from BookShare and am reading it in my PAC
Mate on the display.  It is one of the Pray series, by John Sandford. He
uses a series of * *  space * space at between each little part within a
chapter. It leaves no doubt that the subject or timeframe has change. I
like that. (Not saying I wouldn't like another style, but on the white
space thing --- that would be lost on me.

------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 10:12:23 -0500
From: "Anita Adkins" <aadkins7 at verizon.net>
To: <newmanrl at cox.net>,	"Writer's Division Mailing List"
	<stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] White space and other tactics
Message-ID: <56D0089E89074407A42E45BBDDA3CA86 at AnitaAdkinsPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
	reply-type=original

Hello,

I love those Lucas Davenport books. In the book I am writing, I am just 
using white space, only because that is how we were required to do it in
my 
fiction writing class and because this happens to be a short story that
I 
feel needs a little separation. In the novel I am working on, I just use

chapter breaks. I don't know if anyone has read any James Patterson, but
I 
notice his books have many short chapters. Maybe, he uses that technique

instead of white space. I'm not sure since I read his books with audio.
But, 
if so, that would also be another way someone unable to see the
whitespace 
could be alerted to it. Have a great day. Anita

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Leslie Newman" <newmanrl at cox.net>
To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 5:41 AM
Subject: [stylist] White space and other tactics

> I'm reading a novel, got it from BookShare and am reading it in my PAC
> Mate
> on the display.  It is one of the Pray series, by John Sandford. He
uses a
> series of * *  space * space at between each little part within a
chapter.
> It leaves no doubt that the subject or timeframe has change. I like
that.
> (Not saying I wouldn't like another style, but on the white space 
> thing ---
> that would be lost on me.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site: http://www.nfb-writers-division.org 
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
> stylist mailing list
> stylist at nfbnet.org 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> stylist:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40veri
zon.net 

------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 11:20:57 EST
From: LoriStay at aol.com
To: stylist at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [stylist] White space and other tactics
Message-ID: <1dcc0.40e6cb61.3a5ddd69 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

I always use chapter breaks, or smooth over changes of scenes with a 
sentence or two, like, "The next day Mike..." etc.
Lori
In a message dated 1/11/11 10:23:43 AM, aadkins7 at verizon.net writes:

> 
> 
> I love those Lucas Davenport books. In the book I am writing, I am 
> just using white space, only because that is how we were required to 
> do it in my fiction writing class and because this happens to be a 
> short story that I feel needs a little separation. In the novel I am 
> working on, I just use chapter breaks. I don't know if anyone has read

> any James Patterson, but I notice his books have many short chapters. 
> Maybe, he uses that technique instead of white space. I'm not sure 
> since I read his books with audio. But,
> if so, that would also be another way someone unable to see the
whitespace
> could be alerted to it. Have a great day. Anita
> 
> 

------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 11:26:37 EST
From: LoriStay at aol.com
To: stylist at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [stylist] Story of hoodlums/choice of verbs
Message-ID: <1e4f9.6754fb93.3a5ddebd at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"

Sometimes choice of verbs can balance all this better.   for example;
He 
scurried into the house.
or
he hastened into the house.

i could probably choose better, but you get the idea.   I wouldn't use
the 
word 'suddenly' as I think that weakens the sentence.

Lori
In a message dated 1/10/11 6:50:31 PM, n6yr at sunflower.com writes:

> indeed,
> that's the first question I ask myself when I am reading over the 
> composition with an eye to editing or shortening.? but I have to 
> balance with imagery and effect. I could write:
> He ran into the house.
> or for the emotional place in the story, need of the character, etc.,
> maybe it is better to say:
> looking anxiously over his shoulder, he suddenly ran into the house
> for shelter.
> 
> jc
> 
> 

------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 11:29:32 EST
From: LoriStay at aol.com
To: stylist at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [stylist] Story of hoodlums/word limit
Message-ID: <1e8b4.3faec1b6.3a5ddf6c at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Good lord no.   But how about a gnome?
Lori

In a message dated 1/10/11 6:37:46 PM, n6yr at sunflower.com writes:

> indeed you do lori!
> should I have a nymph or sprite show up in this old san francisco
> landscape?
> jc
> 
> 

------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 11:31:39 EST
From: LoriStay at aol.com
To: stylist at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [stylist] Story of hoodlums/word limit
Message-ID: <1eb76.5c3a8a86.3a5ddfeb at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"

Quite right.   And all adverbs that weaken the verbs too.
Lori
In a message dated 1/10/11 4:37:04 PM, jbron at optonline.net writes:

> There's a lot that's difficult about being a novelist.? If only a
> publisher
> would buy a book that started out with, "Once upon a time" and ended
with,
> "And they all lived happily ever after."? The in between space could
be
> dedicated to sleeping.? But that's not being a novelist.? Lori had the

> best
> advice for cutting down the word count in a story.? Lori, correct me
if 
> I'm
> wrong, but she advised taking out everything that didn't advance the
plot.
> Judith
> 

------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 10:36:42 -0600
From: Bridgit Pollpeter <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
To: Amy Buresh <amy.buresh74 at gmail.com>, Jaime Forbis
	<jkforbis at hotmail.com>, 	writers division
<stylist at nfbnet.org>,
	<bentlyk at aol.com>,	<vjstoakes at cox.net>,
<jonkuenning at gmail.com>,
	<dkhorse at wildblue.net>,	<heyhusker at gmail.com>,
<tamikuenning at aol.com>,
	<kjstoakes at earthlink.net>,	<dpollpeter at iowatelecom.net>,
	<lannylarue at aol.com>,	<rpollpeter at hotmail.com>,
	<brookparsons at yahoo.com>, <cindyleeb at mediacombb.net>,
	<robyneisenbach at hotmail.com>, <jmpollpeter at hotmail.com>,
	<desecheo at gmail.com>, <k_skaar at yahoo.com>,
<dkilpatrick23 at yahoo.com>,
	<kea.anderson at gmail.com>, <lushlie at cox.net>, <dwalla at cox.net>,
	<newmanrl at cox.net>, <burnsandporter at qwestoffice.net>,
	<the_crowd at cox.net>, 	<malexander2 at cox.net>,
<sdjernes at gmail.com>,
	<thegathering33 at hotmail.com>, 	<revacanti at gmail.com>,
	<j_gardner09 at yahoo.com>, <bajenkins77 at gmail.com>,
	<myhorsedoc at aol.com>, <kthorse14 at aol.com>, <majolls at cox.net>,
	<cjenkins83 at gmail.com>, <debrajensen at gmail.com>,
<w0egm at cox.net>,
	<cindybusenbark at cox.net>, <blcburns at cox.net>,
<salvaradolmt at cox.net>,
	<jschmidt73 at cox.net>, <chadtweber at gmail.com>, <rjbell at cox.net>
Subject: [stylist] Check out latest Live Well blog
Message-ID: <SNT136-w180C2692B2169A5D806592C40F0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello,

A new blog posted last week.  Check it out at
http://www.livewellnebraska.com

Look for the Meet the Bloggers link then click on my name, Bridgit
Kuenning-Pollpeter (click on the link with my full name) then you will
find all my past blogs.  The current one is titled Waking from a Low.

Thanks for your support, and pass the news along to anyone you know.  It
is a really good resource.

Bridgit P 		 	   		  

------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 11:43:38 -0500
From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [stylist] Check out latest Live Well blog
Message-ID: <D79F47B2D7F543249A71374152514FC4 at Rufus>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Excellent writing!  Here's the direct link to the entries:

http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit Pollpeter
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 11:37 AM
To: Amy Buresh; Jaime Forbis; writers division; 
bentlyk at aol.com; vjstoakes at cox.net; jonkuenning at gmail.com; 
dkhorse at wildblue.net; heyhusker at gmail.com; 
tamikuenning at aol.com; kjstoakes at earthlink.net; 
dpollpeter at iowatelecom.net; lannylarue at aol.com; 
rpollpeter at hotmail.com; brookparsons at yahoo.com; 
cindyleeb at mediacombb.net; robyneisenbach at hotmail.com; 
jmpollpeter at hotmail.com; desecheo at gmail.com; k_skaar at yahoo.com; 
dkilpatrick23 at yahoo.com; kea.anderson at gmail.com; 
lushlie at cox.net; dwalla at cox.net; newmanrl at cox.net; 
burnsandporter at qwestoffice.net; the_crowd at cox.net; 
malexander2 at cox.net; sdjernes at gmail.com; 
thegathering33 at hotmail.com; revacanti at gmail.com; 
j_gardner09 at yahoo.com; bajenkins77 at gmail.com; 
myhorsedoc at aol.com; kthorse14 at aol.com; majolls at cox.net; 
cjenkins83 at gmail.com; debrajensen at gmail.com; w0egm at cox.net; 
cindybusenbark at cox.net; blcburns at cox.net; salvaradolmt at cox.net; 
jschmidt73 at cox.net; chadtweber at gmail.com; rjbell at cox.net
Subject: [stylist] Check out latest Live Well blog

Hello,

A new blog posted last week.  Check it out at 
http://www.livewellnebraska.com

Look for the Meet the Bloggers link then click on my name, 
Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter (click on the link with my full 
name) then you will find all my past blogs.  The current one is 
titled Waking from a Low.

Thanks for your support, and pass the news along to anyone you 
know.  It is a really good resource.

Bridgit P 		 	   		  
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End of stylist Digest, Vol 81, Issue 18
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