[stylist] The Art of Arguing
Marion Gwizdala
marion.gwizdala at verizon.net
Sat May 14 13:29:55 UTC 2011
Dridgit,
Many people view arguing in a negative light. I believe it is because
one holds their perceptions close and perceive disagreement of a position as
a personal attack, rather than an attack on the argument. It is for this
very reason that, when I participated in forensic debates, I enjoyed taking
the position opposite to the one with which I agreed. Such a tactic helped
me better formulate my own position by affording me the opportunity to view
the debate from a differing perspective. I believe this is what has helped
me be a more critical thinker and not take disagreement personally, even
when the arguments were couched in personal attacks.
Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
To: <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:03 PM
Subject: [stylist] Canes and Dogs
> Judith,
>
> I never said you did or did not agree with anything, I just addressed
> your argument and the way it was portrayed.
>
> You seem to be the only one pulling examples into this discussion that
> fly out of left field. Screaming bigots in Times Square, crying
> children in public places and now airport security "molesting babies."
> It just seems like these comments are a stretch.
>
> Again, I guess I need to spell everything out so I'm not wrongly accused
> of anything. I'm addressing arguments you made here and not you as a
> person, or what your intentions are. I'm simply responding to your
> comments and how I perceive them.
>
> You said it is inappropriate to take a guide dog in certain situations.
> I merely made a rebuttal stating that no one has a legal right to deny a
> guide dog in public places.
>
> I also tried to explain how denying a blind person access to a public
> place because of a guide dog is illegal and discriminatory just like if
> a person was denied access based on ethnicity.
>
> And I said your argument, not you, your argument, paralleled those who
> insist cane users can not take their canes onto a plane. Being a cane
> user yourself, I assumed you do not believe this, but based on your
> argument made here, it can be said that it is the same as being denied
> use of your cane.
>
> I think a lot of misunderstandings on Stylist are because of word choice
> and how tone is conveyed, but also, some of us take comments out of
> context and interpret them wrongly to be personal attacks, or just
> simply do not understand the argument being made.
>
> I do not know you as a person beyond what you say on this list. I can
> respond, and react, to comments you make, but I try to not attack anyone
> as an individual. This is unfair, and knowing how it feels to be judged
> without someone learning who you are, I do not like to make personal
> attacks.
>
> I did not address your personal life; I did not attack your work or
> character; I did not insinuate you are close-minded and do not afford
> others their opinions. A public discussion will have agreements and
> disagreements, and disagreements, even if made with passion, are not
> automatic judgments on a person's character.
>
> So please do not interpret my comments made about your argument as
> personal attacks on your person.
>
> As blind people, I think we all have been through the gambit of
> scenarios with our blindness. I've only been blind for 8 years, but
> I've encountered all types of attitudes, and I have evolved myself.
> None of us have a patent on dealing with perceptions and attitudes
> towards blindness. We are in it together.
>
> And of course we are not only blind people. We deal with perceptions
> about a plethora of things like gender, religion and race. I always say
> that as a woman, we always end up at the bottom of the barrel regardless
> of disability or race. Having something else like blindness just adds
> another level to our struggle as females to receive equal respect in
> this world. As a girl, I'm perceived as more vulnerable especially
> since I'm also blind. The attitudes I get are often different than what
> my husband gets as a blind male.
>
> So we all understand the struggle for acceptance and equality on some
> level. I enjoy these discussions, and it is nice to learn about things
> unfamiliar. When we allow our personal feelings to direct comments
> towards others on a personal level, we cross over into an inappropriate
> defense.
>
> I also think using far-out examples takes the discussion down a bizarre
> alley that begins to take us off course. Although, I like it when we
> think outside the box. *grin*
>
> Bridgit
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 17:20:16 -0400
> From: Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net>
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
> Message-ID: <300363A209294001AAA854B137937F2B at dell5150>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=response
>
> Where did my Jewish identity come in? If a restaurant or anything else
> doesn't allow Jews based on their religion chances are pretty good
> they've
> already been reported to authorities. Many years ago in Florida my in
> laws
> were vacationing. My late mother in law had darker skin, resembling an
> Italian or Middle Eastern complexion. She and my late father in law had
>
> reservations in a hotel. When they walked in the person at the desk
> told
> them that my mother in law could not stay. They didn't allow people
> described with the N word to be guests in their hotel. My father in law
>
> toldd them he couldn't stay either. There's a big difference between a
> dog
> and a Jew with a darker complexion or a Jew who looks as white as an
> Aryian.
> Today all public establishments are mandated to allow guide dogs into
> their
> establishment. However the person using the guide dog has to make their
> own
> determination as to weather or not they want to take their animal there.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <marion.gwizdala at verizon.net>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>
>
>> Judith,
>> I would like to respectfully disagree with some of your message.
>> How
>> one handles an issue of going to someone's home is up to them. My
> feeling
>> is that, if I am invited to someone's home who knows me, that person
> knows
>> I have a guide dog. If they advise me that they are amenable to the
>> presence of my dog, I will make the choice based upon this fact. If,
>> however, they say nothing, I will not ask and will not bring my dog. I
>
>> believe that doing so puts someone on the spot and they may agree to
> let
>> me bring my dog in spite of their wishes that I not do so for fear
> that
>> they may be seen as rude. Again, this is my approach and, by no means,
> do
>> I believe this is the only way to handle it. It is my way. I am not
> one
>> who believes, as I have stated previously, that if you do not accept
> my
>> dog you don't accept me!
>> As to the issue of a public accommodation telling me I am not
> welcome
>> with my dog, I will offer no apology. It is a violation of both state
> and
>> federal law to discriminate against a disabled individual accompanied
> by a
>> service dog unless the dog poses a direct threat to the health or
> safety
>> of others that cannot be eliminated by a reasonable modification of
>> policies, practices, and procedures or if my dog is out of control and
> I
>> do not take immediate action to correct the behavior. Period. End of
>> Story! On this issue I am as intolerant as I hope you would be if a
>> restaurant told you they did not allow Jews! I would attempt to
> educate
>> them, but if they persisted in their discrimination, they would find
>> themselves under arrest! In Florida, as is true in 33 other states,
>> discrimination based upon disability is a criminal offense!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 01:47:38 -0500
> From: jack and bakey <braille_cat at jammerman.net>
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
> Message-ID:
> <mailman.41.1305219613.15051.stylist_nfbnet.org at nfbnet.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Well with the caveat that you do so safely! Take my word for it.
> Yall do not wanna get run over. I have and do Not recommend it.
> Jack
>
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Justin Williams" <justin.williams2 at gmail.com
>>To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org
>>Date sent: Thu, 12 May 2011 01:30:57 -0400
>>Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>
>>I found that it doesn't matter what mode of mobility to choose to
> get from
>>point a to point b, just as long as you get there.
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>Behalf Of Donna Hill
>>Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:06 PM
>>To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
>>Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>
>>Here, here. Well stated, Bridgit. Supporting one another is
> allowing for
>>different choices and applauding success regardless of the
> method.
>
>>Donna
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>Behalf Of Bridgit Pollpeter
>>Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 3:50 PM
>>To: stylist at nfbnet.org
>>Subject: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>
>>At the risk of being taken out of context and accused of
> intolerance and
>>asserting my way is the only way, I will make a comment on this
> topic.
>
>>In fact, perhaps I should point-blank state that I only speak
> from my
>>personal experience, but I'm not suggesting or implying my way is
> best.
>>Hopefully this is good enough for some who like to interpret my
> post on
>>alternative skills as being close-minded and not allowing others
> to
>>express their opinions.
>
>>For those of us who use a cane, it is the only way we know how to
> to
>>travel with an independent tool. I learned the cane and have
> never used
>>a dog- the cane is what I am familiar with. I'm not so arrogant
> to
>>assume that another method is not as effective though.
>
>>I've met many blind people who believe a dog is not an effective
> tool
>>nor can a person be truly independent with a dog. These people
> are
>>ignorant of how a dog is used, and to be honest, anyone unwilling
> to be
>>open-minded is hurting themselves and society.
>
>>The person who wrote into the editor obviously is a moron who is
>>intolerant and probably not a great example of a competent,
> positive
>>blind person.
>
>>Of course when I make recommendations to people, I will tell them
> to use
>>a cane with the small metal tip and make sure it is at least up
> to their
>>chin, but only because this is what I know and what has worked
> for me.
>>None of us can speak much on any method we are not familiar with.
>
>>My goal is for any blind person to be as independent as possible,
> and if
>>a dog, or some other method, works to accomplish that for you,
> then
>>there is nothing wrong with it. Judgment does go both ways, but
> no one
>>should question a persons motives and claim they can not be
> independent
>>due to a tool or method. To be honest, I see way to much
> judgment and
>>intolerance among blind people, especially in the NFB.
>
>>In the Federation, our ultimate goal is suppose to be
> independence and
>>reaching our full potential. If we are doing that, why should it
> matter
>>what tools and methods we use?
>
>>I believe officially supporting one tool, method, skill, is just
> opening
>>the gate to prejudice and judgment. Obviously you have to use
> what is
>>most efficient, but if you are reaching independence and success,
> no one
>>should be stating that one way is better, or the only way. We
> just
>>create more problems by these attitudes.
>
>>I think it was good a response was made to this fools comments.
> There
>>are cane and dog users who are great, and there are others who
> could use
>>some help to learn each respective tool better. But don't assume
> one is
>>better than another. Both are viable, efficient tools when used
>>properly.
>
>>Bridgit
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Writers Division web site:
>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/
>
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>
>
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>>_______________________________________________
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> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/
>
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>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Writers Division web site:
>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/
>
>>stylist mailing list
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 08:33:50 -0400
> From: Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net>
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and Dogs
> Message-ID: <B71ECF4122084DF1A3B439E4F75852E8 at dell5150>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=original
>
> Bridget, I'm not against dog users or a blind person taking their dog
> anywhere they choose. If you read my email last night I said that I
> stand
> corrected. I never had a problem taking a cane on a plane, but that was
>
> before the TSA decided they had the right to molest babies so that they
> could acccompany their parents' on a flight. Bridget, lets not get off
> on
> the TSA, but there are lots of things that are going on in this world
> that
> lots of people could say are bigotted towards one group or another.
> I've
> had to deal with a lot of them. Judith
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
> To: <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 2:22 AM
> Subject: [stylist] Canes and Dogs
>
>
>> Judith,
>>
>> Standing in the middle of Times Square screaming you hate a certain
>> country is a ludicrous analogy to make when discussing when a guide
> dog
>> user should, and should not, take their dog. Your argument is that
> the
>> bigot in Times Square looks silly, which means you imply dog users
>> appear silly at times. If I were a dog user, I would be offended by
>> this rationale.
>>
>> As many have pointed out on the list, guide dog users have every right
>> in this country to take their dog wherever they go. You say there is
> an
>> appropriate and an inappropriate time to take a dog, but the examples
>> you list are not inappropriate environments to take a guide dog.
>>
>> And one would assume those who frequently use their guide dog
> especially
>> long-time guide dog users would have no uncomfortable feelings about
>> taking their dog in the scenarios listed.
>>
>> You say, "All I'm saying is that if bringing your dog is inappropriate
>> in certain situations perhaps you should think twice before bringing
>> it." I think the point is that a guide dog is just like the cane-
> there
>> is not an inappropriate situation for bringing a guide dog. Yes, yes,
> I
>> know if it is raining or a friends house may not be the best time, but
>> I'm speaking to your examples and all public places.
>>
>> When we cane users are denied our canes on a flight, we whip out ADA
>> guidelines and prepare for some butt kicking. It is the same with a
>> dog. Those with guide dogs have every right to bring their trained
>> guide dog into any public place. To me, your argument sounds a lot
> like
>> those who say cane users shouldn't bring their cane for certain
>> situations.
>>
>> It is about independence. Something, I'm afraid to say, not every
>> person calling themselves a Federationist truly understands. Guide
> dogs
>> and canes were developed so blind people could experience true
>> independent mobility.
>>
>> In another post, you say if going to a public place like the theatre,
>> you should leave the cane and dog at home and navigate by memory.
> What
>> if things are rearranged? How do you avoid throngs of people? What
> if
>> there is an object in your way that is not usually there? Leaving
> your
>> independent tool at home because it may make those around you
>> uncomfortable is insane. And yes, you could use sighted guide, but
>> again, what if you need to use the bathroom? What about an emergency
>> and you need to leave quickly? I hate standing there unable to move
>> much because I'm waiting for sighted assistance.
>>
>> A dog and cane give us that freedom. No one should ever feel like
> they
>> can't bring their dog with them, and no one should ever deny a dog
>> entrance into a public setting.
>>
>> Though it may not have been your intent, your post reads as though you
>> are uncomfortable with blindness and sticking out in a crowd because a
>> guide dog makes people feel awkward. The dog, like the cane, is a
> badge
>> of independence.
>>
>> Bridgit
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 14:23:38 -0400
>> From: Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net>
>> To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>> Message-ID: <B51DFC027FDF4857B74AF0111D3C9CD8 at dell5150>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> Donna, I didn't mention shopping, banking or visits to the Utilities
> to
>> pay
>> a bill. Those are public activities in public places. There is no
>> reason
>> why you can't take your guide dog or baby with you to any of these
>> activities. Yes, you have the right to take a dog to the movies,
>> theater or
>> a restaurant, but if the presence of a dog is going to make you feel
>> uncomfortable then why would you want that? I have the civil right to
>> stand
>> in Times Square and scream, "I hate a certain foreign country!" But
>> aside
>> from making myself look like an idiot what will be proven? From the
>> conversation on this thread most dog users are also proficient in
>> travelling
>> with a cane. All I'm saying is that if bringing your dog is
>> inappropriate
>> in certain situations perhaps you should think twice before bringing
>> im. ----- Original Message -----
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>
>> stylist mailing list
>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> stylist:
>>
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> ne.net
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 08:34:27 -0400
> From: Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net>
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and Dogs
> Message-ID: <564C59CD24EB40F6860E705A4B26D325 at dell5150>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=original
>
> Bridget, read my last post. JB
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
> To: <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 2:34 AM
> Subject: [stylist] Canes and Dogs
>
>
>> Judith,
>>
>> You miss the point of Marion's comments. You said that if a
> restaurant
>> told you your guide dog is not suppose to be in their establishment
> that
>> you apologize and promise to not bring it next time.
>>
>> As pointed out, this is illegal. No public establishments , including
>> restaurants, have any right to deny a guide dog unless it poses a
>> threat.
>>
>> So, in your example, the restaurant was verbally saying the dog is not
>> allowed.
>>
>> Based on this, you can replace denying a service animal with an ethnic
>> group.
>>
>> If you are denied access to a public place because of your ethnicity,
>> that establishment would be breaking the law. Just like if they deny
>> access to a guide dog.
>>
>> I fail to see the confusion. Either way, the establishment is
>> discriminating and denying entrance to a person, which in this country
>> is illegal.
>>
>> True, a guide dog owner has the choice to take or not take their dog,
>> but regardless of this, no public place can legally deny a guide dog,
>> just like they can not deny service due to race, religion, gender,
>> sexual orientation or ethnicity.
>>
>> Bridgit
>>
>> Message: 11
>> Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 17:20:16 -0400
>> From: Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net>
>> To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>> Message-ID: <300363A209294001AAA854B137937F2B at dell5150>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
>> reply-type=response
>>
>> Where did my Jewish identity come in? If a restaurant or anything
> else
>> doesn't allow Jews based on their religion chances are pretty good
>> they've
>> already been reported to authorities. Many years ago in Florida my in
>> laws
>> were vacationing. My late mother in law had darker skin, resembling
> an
>> Italian or Middle Eastern complexion. She and my late father in law
> had
>>
>> reservations in a hotel. When they walked in the person at the desk
>> told
>> them that my mother in law could not stay. They didn't allow people
>> described with the N word to be guests in their hotel. My father in
> law
>>
>> toldd them he couldn't stay either. There's a big difference between
> a
>> dog
>> and a Jew with a darker complexion or a Jew who looks as white as an
>> Aryian.
>> Today all public establishments are mandated to allow guide dogs into
>> their
>> establishment. However the person using the guide dog has to make
> their
>> own
>> determination as to weather or not they want to take their animal
> there.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <marion.gwizdala at verizon.net>
>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:00 PM
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>
>>
>>> Judith,
>>> I would like to respectfully disagree with some of your message.
>>> How
>>> one handles an issue of going to someone's home is up to them. My
>> feeling
>>> is that, if I am invited to someone's home who knows me, that person
>> knows
>>> I have a guide dog. If they advise me that they are amenable to the
>>> presence of my dog, I will make the choice based upon this fact. If,
>>> however, they say nothing, I will not ask and will not bring my dog.
> I
>>
>>> believe that doing so puts someone on the spot and they may agree to
>> let
>>> me bring my dog in spite of their wishes that I not do so for fear
>> that
>>> they may be seen as rude. Again, this is my approach and, by no
> means,
>> do
>>> I believe this is the only way to handle it. It is my way. I am not
>> one
>>> who believes, as I have stated previously, that if you do not accept
>> my
>>> dog you don't accept me!
>>> As to the issue of a public accommodation telling me I am not
>> welcome
>>> with my dog, I will offer no apology. It is a violation of both
> state
>> and
>>> federal law to discriminate against a disabled individual accompanied
>> by a
>>> service dog unless the dog poses a direct threat to the health or
>> safety
>>> of others that cannot be eliminated by a reasonable modification of
>>> policies, practices, and procedures or if my dog is out of control
> and
>> I
>>> do not take immediate action to correct the behavior. Period. End of
>>> Story! On this issue I am as intolerant as I hope you would be if a
>>> restaurant told you they did not allow Jews! I would attempt to
>> educate
>>> them, but if they persisted in their discrimination, they would find
>>> themselves under arrest! In Florida, as is true in 33 other states,
>>> discrimination based upon disability is a criminal offense!
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>
>> stylist mailing list
>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> stylist:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/jbron%40optonli
> ne.net
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 07:41:46 -0500
> From: Brad Dunse' <lists at braddunsemusic.com>
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
> Message-ID: <130520415778913350 at t14.hostbaby.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
>
>>I think perhaps the writer of this old love song pretty
>>much summarized the point of this topic.
>
>>When you consider the topic , its not a denomination of travel
>>religion, very simpley either you believe you can get there or you
>>don't, and how that is done according to your own abilities,
>>immediate circumstances, obstacles, safety etc. is personal choice.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0WDS-EQoIM
>
> Brad
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 08:53:55 -0400
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <marion.gwizdala at verizon.net>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
> Message-ID: <18FFC8E1AAA2401BAF954A2354FFBB53 at marion27df4b2a>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=response
>
> Judith,
> My point in making the analogy of your Judaism is to bring this
> issue
> into terms more people can understand. Let me offer a true story.
> I was leaving my wife's house when we were dating and called for a
> cab.
> When I got into the cab with my guide dog, the cab driver told me he
> would
> not transport me because he didn't allow dogs in his cab. We sat in
> Merry's
> driveway for a half hour as I attempted to convince the driver that all
> would be okay and that there was a law that required him to transport
> me.
> After the half hour, frustrated with his unwillingness to carry me, I
> called
> the sheriff's office and spoke with the dispatcher who, interestingly
> enough, claimed there was no such law. I gave him the statute number and
>
> began quoting the law verbatim, including the penalty clause. (Florida's
> law
> is a criminal statute.) The driver, realizing he might be in serious
> trouble, decided to take me home.
> When I arrived home, I again contacted the sheriff's office and
> asked
> that a deputy come to my home so I could file a report. Again, I was
> told
> that no law had been broken that was under the jurisdiction of the
> sheriff's
> office. I again cited and quoted the law to no avail. I finally asked
> the
> person to have a sergeant contact me.
> when the sergeant called he stated that, although he was aware of
> the
> law, he didn't feel it had been broken because, after all, the driver
> did
> finally transport me. Here is the actual conversation that ensued.
>
> "Sir, with all due respect, are you African American?"
> Yes, but what bearing has that?"
> "If you entered a cab and the driver asserted that he would not carry an
>
> African American and it took you a half hour and threats of filing
> criminal
> charges against him before he would transport you, would you say you
> were
> discriminated against?"
> "I will be right over to take your complaint!"
>
> The case went to court, the driver's attorney asserted that he did
> not
> violate the law since he did eventually transport me. the driver was
> found
> guilty of vilating Florida's anti discrimination laws, was fined $500,
> and
> ordered to serve 20 hours of community service.
> The point of all of this is to say that we are more conscious of how
>
> discrimination based upon race, ethnicity, or religion occurs than that
> of
> disability. If we question the behavior by substituting one of these
> other
> characteristics and believe it would be discriminatory, we are better
> able
> to assess those actions as they pertain to us as disabled individuals.
> Many blind people will assert, "If they don't want me at that place,
> why
> should I go?" If blacks were to have said the same thing as it pertains
> to
> Woolworth's or the Freedom Riders as it pertains to buses and terminals,
>
> where would civil rights be today. BTW, May 16 at 9:00 pm on PBS will be
> a
> documentary on the Freedom Riders. I believe every blind person should
> watch
> this program, as it is also part of our heritage! Discrimination, no
> matter
> what the reason, is offensive and founded in ignorance. As leaders in
> the
> Federation - and as grass roots members - we must be committed to
> removing
> the ignorance by every means possible! This includes education, when
> appropriate, and litigation when necessary. One of my adages is, "It is
> better to educate than to litigate! I will educate when I can and
> litigate
> when I must!"
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Judith Bron" <jbron at optonline.net>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>
>
>> Where did my Jewish identity come in? If a restaurant or anything
> else
>> doesn't allow Jews based on their religion chances are pretty good
> they've
>> already been reported to authorities. Many years ago in Florida my in
>
>> laws were vacationing. My late mother in law had darker skin,
> resembling
>> an Italian or Middle Eastern complexion. She and my late father in
> law
>> had reservations in a hotel. When they walked in the person at the
> desk
>> told them that my mother in law could not stay. They didn't allow
> people
>> described with the N word to be guests in their hotel. My father in
> law
>> toldd them he couldn't stay either. There's a big difference between
> a
>> dog and a Jew with a darker complexion or a Jew who looks as white as
> an
>> Aryian. Today all public establishments are mandated to allow guide
> dogs
>> into their establishment. However the person using the guide dog has
> to
>> make their own determination as to weather or not they want to take
> their
>> animal there.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <marion.gwizdala at verizon.net>
>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:00 PM
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>
>>
>>> Judith,
>>> I would like to respectfully disagree with some of your message.
> How
>>> one handles an issue of going to someone's home is up to them. My
> feeling
>>> is that, if I am invited to someone's home who knows me, that person
>>> knows I have a guide dog. If they advise me that they are amenable to
> the
>>> presence of my dog, I will make the choice based upon this fact. If,
>>> however, they say nothing, I will not ask and will not bring my dog.
> I
>>> believe that doing so puts someone on the spot and they may agree to
> let
>>> me bring my dog in spite of their wishes that I not do so for fear
> that
>>> they may be seen as rude. Again, this is my approach and, by no
> means, do
>>> I believe this is the only way to handle it. It is my way. I am not
> one
>>> who believes, as I have stated previously, that if you do not accept
> my
>>> dog you don't accept me!
>>> As to the issue of a public accommodation telling me I am not
> welcome
>>> with my dog, I will offer no apology. It is a violation of both
> state
>>> and federal law to discriminate against a disabled individual
> accompanied
>>> by a service dog unless the dog poses a direct threat to the health
> or
>>> safety of others that cannot be eliminated by a reasonable
> modification
>>> of policies, practices, and procedures or if my dog is out of control
> and
>>> I do not take immediate action to correct the behavior. Period. End
> of
>>> Story! On this issue I am as intolerant as I hope you would be if a
>>> restaurant told you they did not allow Jews! I would attempt to
> educate
>>> them, but if they persisted in their discrimination, they would find
>>> themselves under arrest! In Florida, as is true in 33 other states,
>>> discrimination based upon disability is a criminal offense!
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Judith Bron" <jbron at optonline.net>
>>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 1:07 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi, As a former dog owner I know that there are always situations
> where
>>>> a dog is not welcome. If you are going to a party or to visit a
> friend
>>>> it's appropriate to ask if they would mind if you brought your guide
>
>>>> dog. If you are going to a public place like a restaurant or theater
> let
>>>> your mind guide you based on experience. If the Maitredee says that
>
>>>> dogs are not welcome in a restaurant apologize for bringing him this
>
>>>> time, but promise not to bring him again. If you are going to the
>>>> theater or a concert ask friends if your dog might get in the way of
>
>>>> others at the event. If yes then let your dog take care of his
> bodily
>>>> functions, leave him plenty of water, make sure the heat is on in
> the
>>>> winter and the air conditioner in the summer and wait for your ride.
>
>>>> For those of you who think I'm not sensitive to guide dog users, let
> me
>>>> present an analogy.
>>>> Babies are not always welcome in certain situations. If you want to
> go
>>>> to a movie taking a baby isn't fair to other theater goers. Babys
> cry.
>>>> The same goes for the theater and concerts. If you are going to a
>>>> gathering of adults or a party at a friend's often bringing a baby
> is
>>>> inappropriate. There is no question that you love your baby and it
> hurts
>>>> to be apart from him or her, but you have the freedom to say no to
> an
>>>> invitation that would require you to leave your child with a sitter.
>
>>>> Judith
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 9:41 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Marion,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have seen your handling of other situations and correspondence so
> I
>>>>> know you are a fair-minded individual, so please understand that is
> not
>>>>> the question
>>>>> in my mind. My experience with you is what caused me to be a
> little
>>>>> surprised at the strength of your response. However, I also see
> that
>>>>> the sentence you
>>>>> quote below is at the very least one that can be interpreted in
> several
>>>>> ways, and that it isn't written in a way that stimulates fair
>>>>> discussion. I won't spend
>>>>> time defending his choice of words because the choice was a poor
> one, I
>>>>> just saw what he said as a poor way of asking a question rather
> than an
>>>>> expression of intollerance. In addition, I have followed
> discussions
>>>>> on other lists about when it might be best to leave a dog at home
> and
>>>>> why it might not be
>>>>> a good idea to do that, so I suppose that the question didn't seem
> that
>>>>> out of line even though I would not have chosen to ask it in that
> way
>>>>> or regarding a
>>>>> situation of that nature. Anyway, that's probably enough said, at
>>>>> least by me, and it is probably off topic here anyway except for
> the
>>>>> obvious issue of how
>>>>> words can be interpreted.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 10 May 2011 14:43:33 -0400, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Steve,
>>>>>> I feel the tone of Mr. Hendel's comments about taking a guide
> dog
>>>>>> to a
>>>>>>restaurant was set by the sentence, "I have sometimes not
> understood
>>>>>>why my
>>>>>>dog using friends drag their dog along." He then goes on to
> describe a
>>>>>>visit
>>>>>>to a restaurant in which he asserts a blind person does no
> independent
>>>>>>travel. I admit my comments were extrapolations questioning whether
> or
>>>>>>not
>>>>>>Mr. Hendel uses a cane under such circumstances. It could be argued
>
>>>>>>that, if
>>>>>>a blind person is not doing any independent traveling and,
> therefore,
>>>>>>has no
>>>>>>need for a guide dog, that one would not have a need for a cane
> either.
>>>>>>After all, the question could very well be, "What need has a blind
>>>>>>person
>>>>>>for a cane, since there is no independent travel?"
>>>>>> I would also like to categorically state that I do not believe
> that
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>guide dog or a cane is the best told for independent travel, just
> as I
>>>>>>would
>>>>>>not assert that a hammer, screwdriver, plumb, level, saw, or any
> other
>>>>>>tool
>>>>>>of the carpentry trade is better. It depends upon the job for which
> the
>>>>>>tool
>>>>>>will be used. I have used a hammer on a screw and a screwdriver on
> a
>>>>>>nail;
>>>>>>however, the proper tool for the needed application would have
> worked
>>>>>>better
>>>>>>if I had it at my disposal.
>>>>>> Although I missed the article that triggered Mr. Hendel's
> comments,
>>>>>> it
>>>>>>seemed to loathe the use of the white cane. I am not a guide dog
> user
>>>>>>with
>>>>>>such loathing. In fact, as I mentioned in my rebuttal earlier, I am
> as
>>>>>>proficient with my white cane as I am with my guide dog.
> Furthermore, I
>>>>>>am a
>>>>>>strong advocate for maintaining such proficiency in order to
> maintain
>>>>>>independence in a variety of circumstances.
>>>>>> For instance, as a professional musician I am frequently asked
> to
>>>>>>perform at private parties at people's homes. I will not, under any
>>>>>>circumstances, ask a customer if it is okay for me to bring my
> guide
>>>>>>dog. I
>>>>>>know full well that, if I should ask, I may not get an honest
> answer.
>>>>>>All
>>>>>>too many people might feel as if it were disrespectful to say,
> "No!" to
>>>>>>such
>>>>>>a request, even though that is their desire. those who know me well
>
>>>>>>enough
>>>>>>to know that I am a guide dog user will let me know that it is
> alright;
>>>>>>however, if they do not, I will not inquire. The same is true when
> I am
>>>>>>invited to someone's home for other reasons. I am not one who
> asserts,
>>>>>>"If
>>>>>>they don't want my dog, they don't want me!" I think such
> assertions
>>>>>>are
>>>>>>ludicrous!In such circumstances, I need to be independent and that
>>>>>>means
>>>>>>using my cane.
>>>>>> There are many other reasons I will opt for my white cane
> rather
>>>>>> than my
>>>>>>guide dog. I live in Florida and when the weather is nice, it is
> very
>>>>>>nice.
>>>>>>When it is not, though, it can be awful! I might need to go out
> when it
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>raining, but a wet dog is not pleasant, so I will leave him home
> and
>>>>>>take my
>>>>>>cane. I also enjoy concerts and many venues do not have adequate
> room
>>>>>>for a
>>>>>>100-pound dog, not to mention that many concert-goers tend to like
> to
>>>>>>imbibe
>>>>>>for the experience. Such a large, intoxicated crowd isn't the best
> for
>>>>>>my
>>>>>>dog! Then there are those times - like those of us who are parents
>>>>>>know -
>>>>>>that we just don't want the hassle of dealing with kids or dogs!
>>>>>> There is so much more I could say on the subject line, but
> suffice
>>>>>> it to
>>>>>>say that I am not an absolutistic thinker when it comes to the
> subject.
>>>>>>As
>>>>>>my response to maid Ziegler said, I have had a dog in my life since
> I
>>>>>>was
>>>>>>four years old. I like dogs. I even have a dog for my dog! (grin)
> If
>>>>>>I'm
>>>>>>going to have a dog, why not have a guide dog? On the other hand, I
>
>>>>>>have
>>>>>>blind friends who do not like dogs and, therefore, would not
> consider a
>>>>>>guide dog. I don't understand why people don't like dog, but I
> don't
>>>>>>think
>>>>>>they are bad people because they don't! I like beer; my wife likes
> rum!
>>>>>>Well, I like rum, too, but know my wife won't drink my beer! It's
> all a
>>>>>>matter of choice and preference!
>>>>>> I am open to discussing more about the issue of guide dogs and
>>>>>> white
>>>>>>canes. I will never proclaim one is better than the other, though,
> so
>>>>>>it
>>>>>>will never be "guide dog vs. cane"! Now, let's have a beer....or
> some
>>>>>>rum!
>>>>>
>>>>>>Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>>>>To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 10:44 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This subject has always been one that has interested me. As a
> cane
>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>> who has tried to be careful to defend the
>>>>>>> rights of persons using canes or dogs, I have always been one who
> has
>>>>>>> tried to understand both methods. What I
>>>>>>> have found in general, though, that no serious discussion of the
>>>>>>> differences, the strengths and weaknesses of each,
>>>>>>> the attributes of what might make one method work for some and
> the
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> for others, can ever occur without things
>>>>>>> breaking down. I did not see everything that was written in the
>>>>>>> magazine
>>>>>>> but have only seen what was written here
>>>>>>> so perhaps I have missed something. However, I didn't see
> anything
>>>>>>> written that said that a dog should not be taken
>>>>>>> to a restaurant, only an interest in understanding why it might
> be
>>>>>>> done in
>>>>>>> the particular situation described. I did not
>>>>>>> see him say that sighted guide need to be used, I interpreted him
> to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> assuming that a cane would be used because
>>>>>>> it is my understanding that persons who use dogs generally know
> how
>>>>>>> to use
>>>>>>> a cane as well. What I saw in his writing
>>>>>>> was a guy who was clearly a cane user but who wondered. I
> thought he
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> simply saying that each was a tool and
>>>>>>> why wouldn't one just use whatever tool fit in the same way that
>>>>>>> those of
>>>>>>> us prefer to use straight canes might switch
>>>>>>> to a telescopic cane in some cases. From my perspective, I do
>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>> that people and dogs work as a team and
>>>>>>> that there are always risks when the team is not working
> together,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> that may be the best answer that one might
>>>>>>> give him along with some of the others that were given here. I
> can
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> of a few more answers that I might have
>>>>>>> given such as what if my plans changed. What if after a nice
> dinner
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> decided to walk home instead of taking a cab,
>>>>>>> or if I was on a date, what if the opportunity arose to not
> return
>>>>>>> directly home. There are simply a lot of responses and
>>>>>>> areas to explore without assuming that the question was raised as
> a
>>>>>>> die-hard intollerant cane user. There are some of
>>>>>>> those who use canes, and there are even some who use dogs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 09 May 2011 15:56:35 -0500, Brad Dunse' wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>You know I saw a Chevy in the ditch the other day, they can't
> even
>>>>>>>>>stay on the road... people just can't drive right when they
> drive a
>>>>>>>>>Chevy. Always bumping into things and stuff. Now I know if they
> had
>>>>>>>>>a Toyota... well, that just wouldn't have happened at all. I
> mean I
>>>>>>>>>drive a Toyota and never have issues running off the road or
> bumping
>>>>>>>>>into stuff. Driver's are going to get a bad reputation for
>>>>>>>>>running off roads. I've told them time and time again I'm
> right
>>>>>>>>>about this but they don't listen. We ought eliminate Chevy's
> before
>>>>>>>>>pedestrians get the wrong idea about people behind the wheel.
>>>>>>>>Plagerized word exchange below...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>In response to Feature Writer Alena Roberts - Deciding When to
> Take
>>>>>>>>Your
>>>>>>>>flip flops With You
>>>>>>>>I would like to express my opinion on the question posed by Alena
>
>>>>>>>>Roberts;
>>>>>>>>namely, when to take and when not to take your flip flops. I come
> at
>>>>>>>>this
>>>>>>>>from a point of view which Alena may not have expected--I am a
> blind
>>>>>>>>person
>>>>>>>>who has always used sneakers and does not want flip flops. I have
>>>>>>>>sometimes
>>>>>>>>not understood why my flip flop using friends drag their flip
> flops
>>>>>>>>along. Here is a
>>>>>>>>scenario which is difficult for me to understand.
>>>>>>>>You are taking a cab to a restaurant, maybe by yourself, maybe to
>
>>>>>>>>meet a
>>>>>>>>friend. You will then take a cab home.
>>>>>>>>1. You go from the door of your house to the cab.
>>>>>>>>2. You go from the cab to the door of the restaurant, where the
> host
>>>>>>>>or a
>>>>>>>>waiter/waitress helps you find a table.
>>>>>>>>3. You repeat the process in reverse, restaurant to cab, cab to
> home.
>>>>>>>>You are not really doing any independent travel. Why, then, do
> you
>>>>>>>>need
>>>>>>>>your
>>>>>>>>flip flops? It seems to me that it's a lot of trouble and hassle
> to
>>>>>>>>take flip flops on
>>>>>>>>such an occasion, not to mention that the flip flops may be in
> the
>>>>>>>>way at
>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>table, or in the cab. Why not use your sneakers?
>>>>>>>>I don't even understand why Ms. Roberts says she "dislikes using
>>>>>>>>sneakers. Sneakers are merely a tool, like a hammer or screw
> driver.
>>>>>>>>I use it when I need
>>>>>>>>it, and I'm glad to have it. I can't even imagine wanting flip
> flops.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Brad Dunse
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Inspiration is sweating over the pen...
>>>>>>>> then smiling at what was written. --Anonymous
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://www.facebook.com/braddunse
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://www.twitter.com/braddunse
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>Writers Division web site:
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>stylist mailing list
>>>>>>>>stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
>>>>>>>>stylist:
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/steve.ja
> cobson%40visi.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
>>>>>>> stylist:
>>>>>>>
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> %40verizon.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>Writers Division web site:
>>>>>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>
>>>>>>stylist mailing list
>>>>>>stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>>>stylist:
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/steve.jaco
> bson%40visi.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>
>>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
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>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
>>>>> stylist:
>>>>>
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> ne.net
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>
>>>> stylist mailing list
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>>>>
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> %40verizon.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Writers Division web site:
>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>
>>> stylist mailing list
>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
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>
>>> stylist:
>>>
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> ne.net
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>
>> stylist mailing list
>> stylist at nfbnet.org
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 08:58:03 -0400
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <marion.gwizdala at verizon.net>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
> Message-ID: <D6130D434BF24B149A733629505F654D at marion27df4b2a>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=original
>
> Donna,
> As for zoos, NAGDU is working with the American Zoological
> Association
> to offer our resources to assist in creating better policies. Part of
> this
> is to offer our members to help habituate the animals to the presence of
>
> service dogs. systematic desensitization can help resolve this issue if
> the
> zoos are willing to take the time to do so. Such is in the best interest
> of
> all concerned, including the animals!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Donna Hill" <penatwork at epix.net>
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>
>
>> Marion,
>> Thanks for pointing out my misstatement implying that the service
> animals
>> are the ones with the rights. It is indeed important to get it right.
>> Also,
>> thanks for the update. I'm glad to here the neonatal etc. exclusion is
> no
>> longer a blanket exclusion. Personally, I don't mind keeping my dog
> out of
>> the primate house, but having been at many zoos and other animal
> exhibits,
>> I
>> don't think there's any reason for a blanket exclusion.
>> Donna
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
>> Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:23 PM
>> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>
>> Donna,
>> I would like to clarify your statements and, for the sake of this
> list,
>> state that, although it may seem off-topic, as professional or
> aspiring
>> writers, we need to be as well informed as possible, so please indulge
> me.
>> First of all, I will begin at the end of your message. In the
> interest
>> of accuracy, service animals have no rights under the law. Disabled
>> individuals have the rights and one of those rights is to be
> accompanied
>> by
>> a service animal, as defined by the Americans with Disabilities Act
> and
>> its
>> implementing regulations.
>> As I mentioned in the previous post, places of public accommodation
> are
>> required to allow individuals with disabilities accompanied by a
> service
>> animal into any place the general public is allowed unless the
> presence of
>> the animal poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others
> that
>> cannot be eliminated by a reasonable modification of policies,
> practices,
>> or
>>
>> procedures or is out of control and the handler does not take
> immediate
>> action to control the animal. In the case of a direct threat, the
> threat
>> must be clear and present and not based upon an assumption of such a
>> threat.
>>
>> In the case of a hospital, for instance, if visitors, staff, or other
>> patients are required to wear protective barriers, such as masks,
> gloves,
>> gowns, etc., it is not reasonable to expect a dog to undergo such
>> procedures, so the dog may be excluded. It is no longer a heuristic
> that
>> neo-natal, ICUs, or psychiatric units can exclude a service dog. It
> must
>> be
>> demonstrated that the dog's presence poses a real threat.
>> As for the second reason for exclusion - the animal is out of
> control
>> and the handler does not take immediate action to correct the behavior
> -
>> if
>> a dog barks repeatedly in a movie theater or wanders off-leash, an
> entity
>> may exclude the service animal. In either case, the entity must allow
> the
>> person with a disability the option to continue to enjoy the goods and
>> services of the entity without the dog being present.
>> As for the zoo issue, NAGDU is currently working on that one! many
> zoos
>> have attempted to skirt the ADA by asserting that the USDA, not the
> DOJ,
>> has
>>
>> jurisdiction. I have been in contact with the USDA and am hoping for
> an
>> authoritative reply that will contradict this assertion. Furthermore,
> we
>> are
>>
>> in the process of visiting some zoos that have non-compliant policies
> and
>> will be filing test cases in federal court soon! Stay tuned!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> National Federation of the Blind
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Donna Hill" <penatwork at epix.net>
>> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 1:59 PM
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>
>>
>>> Judith,
>>> You write, "If the Maitredee says that dogs are not welcome in a
>>> restaurant
>>> apologize for bringing him this time, but promise not to bring him
>>> again."
>>
>>> I
>>> think you will find that this sentence and your baby comparison cause
> a
>>> lot
>>> of problems with guide dog users. It is illegal, and has been for
> many
>>> years, for any establishment open to the public to deny entrance to
> those
>>> using service animals. Restaurants, motels, grocery stores,
> hospitals,
>>> libraries, sports/concert venues, public transportation and so on
> have no
>>> justifiable excuse for such intolerance, though unfortunately guide
> dog
>>> users still face such discrimination. There are very few acceptions,
> and
>>> Marion would be able to clarify this more accurately than I; neonatal
> and
>>> ICU wards in hospitals come to mind, and I know zoos that prefer
> guide
>>> dogs
>>> not be brought into the primate houses. You may exclude a guide dog
> from
>>> your private home -- unless you have opened it as a location for a
>>> meeting
>>> to which the public is invited. Prior to the ADA, this matter was
>>> addressed
>>> state by state, but it was addressed. I received a booklet containing
> the
>>> state laws regarding guide dogs when I got my first dog in 1971.
>>>
>>> It is shocking and offensive, to say the least, to hear a
> suggestion--
>>> especially from a fellow Federationist -- that we apologize and
> acquiesce
>>> to
>>> the ignorance of such people. I do hope you will adjust your thinking
> on
>>> this matter. I suppose any piece of information can slip by
> unnoticed,
>>> especially when it is not directly pertenant to an individual, though
> I
>>> am
>>> still shocked, as many people who have no reason to personally know
> this
>>> are
>>> aware that service dogs are protected from this sort of
> discrimination by
>>> law.
>>> Donna
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
>>> Behalf Of Judith Bron
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 1:08 PM
>>> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>>
>>> Hi, As a former dog owner I know that there are always situations
> where a
>>> dog is not welcome. If you are going to a party or to visit a friend
>
>>> it's
>>> appropriate to ask if they would mind if you brought your guide dog.
> If
>>> you are going to a public place like a restaurant or theater let your
>
>>> mind
>>> guide you based on experience. If the Maitredee says that dogs are
> not
>>> welcome in a restaurant apologize for bringing him this time, but
> promise
>>> not to bring him again. If you are going to the theater or a concert
> ask
>>> friends if your dog might get in the way of others at the event. If
> yes
>>> then let your dog take care of his bodily functions, leave him plenty
> of
>>> water, make sure the heat is on in the winter and the air conditioner
> in
>>> the
>>>
>>> summer and wait for your ride. For those of you who think I'm not
>>> sensitive
>>>
>>> to guide dog users, let me present an analogy.
>>> Babies are not always welcome in certain situations. If you want to
> go
>>> to
>>
>>> a
>>>
>>> movie taking a baby isn't fair to other theater goers. Babys cry.
> The
>>> same
>>>
>>> goes for the theater and concerts. If you are going to a gathering
> of
>>> adults or a party at a friend's often bringing a baby is
> inappropriate.
>>> There is no question that you love your baby and it hurts to be apart
>
>>> from
>>> him or her, but you have the freedom to say no to an invitation that
>>> would
>>> require you to leave your child with a sitter. Judith
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 9:41 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>>
>>>
>>>> Marion,
>>>>
>>>> I have seen your handling of other situations and correspondence so
> I
>>>> know
>>>
>>>> you are a fair-minded individual, so please understand that is not
> the
>>>> question
>>>> in my mind. My experience with you is what caused me to be a little
>>>> surprised at the strength of your response. However, I also see
> that
>>>> the
>>>> sentence you
>>>> quote below is at the very least one that can be interpreted in
> several
>>>> ways, and that it isn't written in a way that stimulates fair
>>>> discussion.
>>>> I won't spend
>>>> time defending his choice of words because the choice was a poor
> one, I
>>>> just saw what he said as a poor way of asking a question rather than
> an
>>>> expression of intollerance. In addition, I have followed
> discussions on
>>>> other lists about when it might be best to leave a dog at home and
> why
>>>> it
>>>> might not be
>>>> a good idea to do that, so I suppose that the question didn't seem
> that
>>>> out of line even though I would not have chosen to ask it in that
> way or
>>>> regarding a
>>>> situation of that nature. Anyway, that's probably enough said, at
> least
>>>> by me, and it is probably off topic here anyway except for the
> obvious
>>>> issue of how
>>>> words can be interpreted.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 10 May 2011 14:43:33 -0400, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Steve,
>>>>> I feel the tone of Mr. Hendel's comments about taking a guide
> dog to
>>>>> a
>>>>>restaurant was set by the sentence, "I have sometimes not understood
> why
>>>>>my
>>>>>dog using friends drag their dog along." He then goes on to describe
> a
>>>>>visit
>>>>>to a restaurant in which he asserts a blind person does no
> independent
>>>>>travel. I admit my comments were extrapolations questioning whether
> or
>>>>>not
>>>>>Mr. Hendel uses a cane under such circumstances. It could be argued
>>>>>that,
>>>>>if
>>>>>a blind person is not doing any independent traveling and,
> therefore,
>>>>>has
>>>>>no
>>>>>need for a guide dog, that one would not have a need for a cane
> either.
>>>>>After all, the question could very well be, "What need has a blind
>>>>>person
>>>>>for a cane, since there is no independent travel?"
>>>>> I would also like to categorically state that I do not believe
> that
>>>>> a
>>>>>guide dog or a cane is the best told for independent travel, just as
> I
>>>>>would
>>>>>not assert that a hammer, screwdriver, plumb, level, saw, or any
> other
>>>>>tool
>>>>>of the carpentry trade is better. It depends upon the job for which
> the
>>>>>tool
>>>>>will be used. I have used a hammer on a screw and a screwdriver on a
>>>>>nail;
>>>>>however, the proper tool for the needed application would have
> worked
>>>>>better
>>>>>if I had it at my disposal.
>>>>> Although I missed the article that triggered Mr. Hendel's
> comments,
>>>>> it
>>>>>seemed to loathe the use of the white cane. I am not a guide dog
> user
>>>>>with
>>>>>such loathing. In fact, as I mentioned in my rebuttal earlier, I am
> as
>>>>>proficient with my white cane as I am with my guide dog.
> Furthermore, I
>>>>>am
>>>
>>>>>a
>>>>>strong advocate for maintaining such proficiency in order to
> maintain
>>>>>independence in a variety of circumstances.
>>>>> For instance, as a professional musician I am frequently asked
> to
>>>>>perform at private parties at people's homes. I will not, under any
>>>>>circumstances, ask a customer if it is okay for me to bring my guide
>
>>>>>dog.
>>>>>I
>>>>>know full well that, if I should ask, I may not get an honest
> answer.
>>>>>All
>>>>>too many people might feel as if it were disrespectful to say, "No!"
> to
>>>>>such
>>>>>a request, even though that is their desire. those who know me well
>>>>>enough
>>>>>to know that I am a guide dog user will let me know that it is
> alright;
>>>>>however, if they do not, I will not inquire. The same is true when I
> am
>>>>>invited to someone's home for other reasons. I am not one who
> asserts,
>>>>>"If
>>>>>they don't want my dog, they don't want me!" I think such assertions
> are
>>>>>ludicrous!In such circumstances, I need to be independent and that
> means
>>>>>using my cane.
>>>>> There are many other reasons I will opt for my white cane rather
>
>>>>> than
>>>>> my
>>>>>guide dog. I live in Florida and when the weather is nice, it is
> very
>>>>>nice.
>>>>>When it is not, though, it can be awful! I might need to go out when
> it
>>>>>is
>>>>>raining, but a wet dog is not pleasant, so I will leave him home and
>
>>>>>take
>>>>>my
>>>>>cane. I also enjoy concerts and many venues do not have adequate
> room
>>>>>for
>>>>>a
>>>>>100-pound dog, not to mention that many concert-goers tend to like
> to
>>>>>imbibe
>>>>>for the experience. Such a large, intoxicated crowd isn't the best
> for
>>>>>my
>>>>>dog! Then there are those times - like those of us who are parents
>>>>>know -
>>>>>that we just don't want the hassle of dealing with kids or dogs!
>>>>> There is so much more I could say on the subject line, but
> suffice
>>>>> it
>>>>> to
>>>>>say that I am not an absolutistic thinker when it comes to the
> subject.
>>>>>As
>>>>>my response to maid Ziegler said, I have had a dog in my life since
> I
>>>>>was
>>>>>four years old. I like dogs. I even have a dog for my dog! (grin) If
> I'm
>>>>>going to have a dog, why not have a guide dog? On the other hand, I
> have
>>>>>blind friends who do not like dogs and, therefore, would not
> consider a
>>>>>guide dog. I don't understand why people don't like dog, but I don't
>>>>>think
>>>>>they are bad people because they don't! I like beer; my wife likes
> rum!
>>>>>Well, I like rum, too, but know my wife won't drink my beer! It's
> all a
>>>>>matter of choice and preference!
>>>>> I am open to discussing more about the issue of guide dogs and
> white
>>>>>canes. I will never proclaim one is better than the other, though,
> so it
>>>>>will never be "guide dog vs. cane"! Now, let's have a beer....or
> some
>>>>>rum!
>>>>
>>>>>Fraternally yours,
>>>>>Marion Gwizdala
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>>>To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 10:44 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This subject has always been one that has interested me. As a
> cane
>>>>>> user
>>>>>> who has tried to be careful to defend the
>>>>>> rights of persons using canes or dogs, I have always been one who
> has
>>>>>> tried to understand both methods. What I
>>>>>> have found in general, though, that no serious discussion of the
>>>>>> differences, the strengths and weaknesses of each,
>>>>>> the attributes of what might make one method work for some and the
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> for others, can ever occur without things
>>>>>> breaking down. I did not see everything that was written in the
>>>>>> magazine
>>>>>> but have only seen what was written here
>>>>>> so perhaps I have missed something. However, I didn't see
> anything
>>>>>> written that said that a dog should not be taken
>>>>>> to a restaurant, only an interest in understanding why it might be
>
>>>>>> done
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the particular situation described. I did not
>>>>>> see him say that sighted guide need to be used, I interpreted him
> to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> assuming that a cane would be used because
>>>>>> it is my understanding that persons who use dogs generally know
> how to
>>>>>> use
>>>>>> a cane as well. What I saw in his writing
>>>>>> was a guy who was clearly a cane user but who wondered. I thought
> he
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> simply saying that each was a tool and
>>>>>> why wouldn't one just use whatever tool fit in the same way that
> those
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> us prefer to use straight canes might switch
>>>>>> to a telescopic cane in some cases. From my perspective, I do
>>>>>> understand
>>>>>> that people and dogs work as a team and
>>>>>> that there are always risks when the team is not working together,
> and
>>>>>> that may be the best answer that one might
>>>>>> give him along with some of the others that were given here. I
> can
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> of a few more answers that I might have
>>>>>> given such as what if my plans changed. What if after a nice
> dinner I
>>>>>> decided to walk home instead of taking a cab,
>>>>>> or if I was on a date, what if the opportunity arose to not return
>>>>>> directly home. There are simply a lot of responses and
>>>>>> areas to explore without assuming that the question was raised as
> a
>>>>>> die-hard intollerant cane user. There are some of
>>>>>> those who use canes, and there are even some who use dogs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 09 May 2011 15:56:35 -0500, Brad Dunse' wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>You know I saw a Chevy in the ditch the other day, they can't
> even
>>>>>>>>stay on the road... people just can't drive right when they drive
> a
>>>>>>>>Chevy. Always bumping into things and stuff. Now I know if they
> had
>>>>>>>>a Toyota... well, that just wouldn't have happened at all. I mean
> I
>>>>>>>>drive a Toyota and never have issues running off the road or
> bumping
>>>>>>>>into stuff. Driver's are going to get a bad reputation for
>>>>>>>>running off roads. I've told them time and time again I'm
> right
>>>>>>>>about this but they don't listen. We ought eliminate Chevy's
> before
>>>>>>>>pedestrians get the wrong idea about people behind the wheel.
>>>>>>>Plagerized word exchange below...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In response to Feature Writer Alena Roberts - Deciding When to
> Take
>>>>>>>Your
>>>>>>>flip flops With You
>>>>>>>I would like to express my opinion on the question posed by Alena
>>>>>>>Roberts;
>>>>>>>namely, when to take and when not to take your flip flops. I come
> at
>>>>>>>this
>>>>>>>from a point of view which Alena may not have expected--I am a
> blind
>>>>>>>person
>>>>>>>who has always used sneakers and does not want flip flops. I have
>>>>>>>sometimes
>>>>>>>not understood why my flip flop using friends drag their flip
> flops
>>>>>>>along. Here is a
>>>>>>>scenario which is difficult for me to understand.
>>>>>>>You are taking a cab to a restaurant, maybe by yourself, maybe to
> meet
>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>friend. You will then take a cab home.
>>>>>>>1. You go from the door of your house to the cab.
>>>>>>>2. You go from the cab to the door of the restaurant, where the
> host
>>>>>>>or
>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>waiter/waitress helps you find a table.
>>>>>>>3. You repeat the process in reverse, restaurant to cab, cab to
> home.
>>>>>>>You are not really doing any independent travel. Why, then, do you
>
>>>>>>>need
>>>>>>>your
>>>>>>>flip flops? It seems to me that it's a lot of trouble and hassle
> to
>>>>>>>take flip flops on
>>>>>>>such an occasion, not to mention that the flip flops may be in the
> way
>>>>>>>at
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>table, or in the cab. Why not use your sneakers?
>>>>>>>I don't even understand why Ms. Roberts says she "dislikes using
>>>>>>>sneakers. Sneakers are merely a tool, like a hammer or screw
> driver.
>>>>>>>I use it when I need
>>>>>>>it, and I'm glad to have it. I can't even imagine wanting flip
> flops.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Brad Dunse
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Inspiration is sweating over the pen...
>>>>>>> then smiling at what was written. --Anonymous
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://www.facebook.com/braddunse
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://www.twitter.com/braddunse
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>Writers Division web site:
>>>>>>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>stylist mailing list
>>>>>>>stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
>>>>>>>stylist:
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/steve.jac
> obson
>> %
>>> 40visi.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
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> for
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>>>>>>
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/marion.gwizdala
> %40v
>>> erizon.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Writers Division web site:
>>>>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>
>>>>>stylist mailing list
>>>>>stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
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> son%4
>> 0
>>> visi.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>
>>>> stylist mailing list
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> ne.n
>>> et
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Writers Division web site:
>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>
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>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>
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>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 09:01:36 -0400
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <marion.gwizdala at verizon.net>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
> Message-ID: <CF472423B3804118A1E22991BB1F7427 at marion27df4b2a>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=original
>
> Donna,
> Another point is that Mr. Hendel, as i have previously stated, has
> my
> email address. He asked me another question concerning guide dogs in
> restaurants. If he truly wanted to ask a question and receive an
> authoritative answer, why did he not contact me as he had in the past?
> This
> all leads me to believe he didn't really ask a question, but couched his
>
> aggression in rhetoric.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Donna Hill" <penatwork at epix.net>
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>
>
>> Hi Marion,
>> I think Mr. H's tone is inflammatory, and it is difficult to envision
> how
>> it
>> could be interpreted otherwise. If he wasn't venting and truly had
>> questions
>> about why guide dog users do certain things, he might have phrased it
> like
>> this:
>>
>> Block quote
>> I am a white cane user with friends who use guide dogs. Sometimes, I
> don't
>> understand what's going on, and I don't feel comfortable asking them
>> directly. For instance, why do you need to take a guide dog into a
>> restaurant? If you're not walking there, how is the dog helping? I'm
> not
>> saying they shouldn't take their dogs, just confused about how they
> are
>> being used.
>> Block quote end
>>
>> Just a thought.
>> Donna
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
>> Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 4:36 PM
>> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>
>> Steve,
>> Thank you for your message and explanation. In an effort to keep
> the
>> thread on topic for this list, I would like to discuss how the words
> we
>> choose set a tone that might be misinterpreted through the choice of
>> words.
>> It is my opinion that I did not misinterpret Mr. Hendel's comments.
> Not
>> only
>>
>> did he begin by asserting that guide dog users "drag" their dogs to
> places
>> he believes they should not, he goes on to assert that there is no
> need
>> for
>> a dog in a particular circumstance due to the lack of independent
> travel.
>> I
>> fail to understand how he can make an assertion that going to a
> restaurant
>> does not involve independent travel, especially after he describes the
>> assistance one might receive once arriving. Either one travels
>> independently
>>
>> or, in his words, someone "helps you find a table". It is true that
> some
>> restaurants escort all of their patrons to a table, but escorting and
>> "helping you find a table" are different to me. Again, to keep this
>> on-topic
>>
>> for this list, it is important to choose words that effectively
>> communicate
>> our intended affect. I believe Mr. hendel either did very well at
>> communicating an argumentative, intolerant attitude or completely
> missed
>> the
>>
>> mark!
>> I would also like to say that I am not one who talks (or writes)
> behind
>> another's back. Therefore, when I wrote my message to Mr. Hammond, the
>> Matilda Ziegler Editor, I copied Mr. Hendel, since he had contacted me
> on
>> another NAGDU-related issue. Interestingly, it involved an
> acquaintance of
>> his who uses a guide dog and an issue with a restaurant! As of this
>> writing,
>>
>> Mr. Hendel has not responded to advise me that I misunderstood his
>> message.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 9:41 AM
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>
>>
>>> Marion,
>>>
>>> I have seen your handling of other situations and correspondence so I
>
>>> know
>>
>>> you are a fair-minded individual, so please understand that is not
> the
>>> question
>>> in my mind. My experience with you is what caused me to be a little
>>> surprised at the strength of your response. However, I also see that
> the
>>> sentence you
>>> quote below is at the very least one that can be interpreted in
> several
>>> ways, and that it isn't written in a way that stimulates fair
> discussion.
>>> I won't spend
>>> time defending his choice of words because the choice was a poor one,
> I
>>> just saw what he said as a poor way of asking a question rather than
> an
>>> expression of intollerance. In addition, I have followed discussions
> on
>>> other lists about when it might be best to leave a dog at home and
> why it
>>> might not be
>>> a good idea to do that, so I suppose that the question didn't seem
> that
>>> out of line even though I would not have chosen to ask it in that way
> or
>>> regarding a
>>> situation of that nature. Anyway, that's probably enough said, at
> least
>>> by me, and it is probably off topic here anyway except for the
> obvious
>>> issue of how
>>> words can be interpreted.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>> On Tue, 10 May 2011 14:43:33 -0400, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>>
>>>>Steve,
>>>> I feel the tone of Mr. Hendel's comments about taking a guide dog
> to
>>>> a
>>>>restaurant was set by the sentence, "I have sometimes not understood
> why
>>>>my
>>>>dog using friends drag their dog along." He then goes on to describe
> a
>>>>visit
>>>>to a restaurant in which he asserts a blind person does no
> independent
>>>>travel. I admit my comments were extrapolations questioning whether
> or
>>>>not
>>>>Mr. Hendel uses a cane under such circumstances. It could be argued
> that,
>>>>if
>>>>a blind person is not doing any independent traveling and, therefore,
> has
>>>>no
>>>>need for a guide dog, that one would not have a need for a cane
> either.
>>>>After all, the question could very well be, "What need has a blind
> person
>>>>for a cane, since there is no independent travel?"
>>>> I would also like to categorically state that I do not believe
> that a
>>>>guide dog or a cane is the best told for independent travel, just as
> I
>>>>would
>>>>not assert that a hammer, screwdriver, plumb, level, saw, or any
> other
>>>>tool
>>>>of the carpentry trade is better. It depends upon the job for which
> the
>>>>tool
>>>>will be used. I have used a hammer on a screw and a screwdriver on a
>>>>nail;
>>>>however, the proper tool for the needed application would have worked
>>>>better
>>>>if I had it at my disposal.
>>>> Although I missed the article that triggered Mr. Hendel's
> comments,
>>>> it
>>>>seemed to loathe the use of the white cane. I am not a guide dog user
>
>>>>with
>>>>such loathing. In fact, as I mentioned in my rebuttal earlier, I am
> as
>>>>proficient with my white cane as I am with my guide dog. Furthermore,
> I
>>>>am
>>
>>>>a
>>>>strong advocate for maintaining such proficiency in order to maintain
>>>>independence in a variety of circumstances.
>>>> For instance, as a professional musician I am frequently asked to
>>>>perform at private parties at people's homes. I will not, under any
>>>>circumstances, ask a customer if it is okay for me to bring my guide
> dog.
>>>>I
>>>>know full well that, if I should ask, I may not get an honest answer.
> All
>>>>too many people might feel as if it were disrespectful to say, "No!"
> to
>>>>such
>>>>a request, even though that is their desire. those who know me well
>>>>enough
>>>>to know that I am a guide dog user will let me know that it is
> alright;
>>>>however, if they do not, I will not inquire. The same is true when I
> am
>>>>invited to someone's home for other reasons. I am not one who
> asserts,
>>>>"If
>>>>they don't want my dog, they don't want me!" I think such assertions
> are
>>>>ludicrous!In such circumstances, I need to be independent and that
> means
>>>>using my cane.
>>>> There are many other reasons I will opt for my white cane rather
> than
>>>> my
>>>>guide dog. I live in Florida and when the weather is nice, it is very
>>>>nice.
>>>>When it is not, though, it can be awful! I might need to go out when
> it
>>>>is
>>>>raining, but a wet dog is not pleasant, so I will leave him home and
> take
>>>>my
>>>>cane. I also enjoy concerts and many venues do not have adequate room
> for
>>>>a
>>>>100-pound dog, not to mention that many concert-goers tend to like to
>>>>imbibe
>>>>for the experience. Such a large, intoxicated crowd isn't the best
> for my
>>>>dog! Then there are those times - like those of us who are parents
> know -
>>>>that we just don't want the hassle of dealing with kids or dogs!
>>>> There is so much more I could say on the subject line, but
> suffice it
>>>> to
>>>>say that I am not an absolutistic thinker when it comes to the
> subject.
>>>>As
>>>>my response to maid Ziegler said, I have had a dog in my life since I
> was
>>>>four years old. I like dogs. I even have a dog for my dog! (grin) If
> I'm
>>>>going to have a dog, why not have a guide dog? On the other hand, I
> have
>>>>blind friends who do not like dogs and, therefore, would not consider
> a
>>>>guide dog. I don't understand why people don't like dog, but I don't
>>>>think
>>>>they are bad people because they don't! I like beer; my wife likes
> rum!
>>>>Well, I like rum, too, but know my wife won't drink my beer! It's all
> a
>>>>matter of choice and preference!
>>>> I am open to discussing more about the issue of guide dogs and
> white
>>>>canes. I will never proclaim one is better than the other, though, so
> it
>>>>will never be "guide dog vs. cane"! Now, let's have a beer....or some
>
>>>>rum!
>>>
>>>>Fraternally yours,
>>>>Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>>To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 10:44 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> This subject has always been one that has interested me. As a cane
>
>>>>> user
>>>>> who has tried to be careful to defend the
>>>>> rights of persons using canes or dogs, I have always been one who
> has
>>>>> tried to understand both methods. What I
>>>>> have found in general, though, that no serious discussion of the
>>>>> differences, the strengths and weaknesses of each,
>>>>> the attributes of what might make one method work for some and the
>>>>> other
>>>>> for others, can ever occur without things
>>>>> breaking down. I did not see everything that was written in the
>>>>> magazine
>>>>> but have only seen what was written here
>>>>> so perhaps I have missed something. However, I didn't see anything
>>>>> written that said that a dog should not be taken
>>>>> to a restaurant, only an interest in understanding why it might be
> done
>>>>> in
>>>>> the particular situation described. I did not
>>>>> see him say that sighted guide need to be used, I interpreted him
> to be
>>>>> assuming that a cane would be used because
>>>>> it is my understanding that persons who use dogs generally know how
> to
>>>>> use
>>>>> a cane as well. What I saw in his writing
>>>>> was a guy who was clearly a cane user but who wondered. I thought
> he
>>>>> was
>>>>> simply saying that each was a tool and
>>>>> why wouldn't one just use whatever tool fit in the same way that
> those
>>>>> of
>>>>> us prefer to use straight canes might switch
>>>>> to a telescopic cane in some cases. From my perspective, I do
>>>>> understand
>>>>> that people and dogs work as a team and
>>>>> that there are always risks when the team is not working together,
> and
>>>>> that may be the best answer that one might
>>>>> give him along with some of the others that were given here. I can
>>>>> think
>>>>> of a few more answers that I might have
>>>>> given such as what if my plans changed. What if after a nice
> dinner I
>>>>> decided to walk home instead of taking a cab,
>>>>> or if I was on a date, what if the opportunity arose to not return
>>>>> directly home. There are simply a lot of responses and
>>>>> areas to explore without assuming that the question was raised as a
>>>>> die-hard intollerant cane user. There are some of
>>>>> those who use canes, and there are even some who use dogs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 09 May 2011 15:56:35 -0500, Brad Dunse' wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>You know I saw a Chevy in the ditch the other day, they can't even
>>>>>>>stay on the road... people just can't drive right when they drive
> a
>>>>>>>Chevy. Always bumping into things and stuff. Now I know if they
> had
>>>>>>>a Toyota... well, that just wouldn't have happened at all. I mean
> I
>>>>>>>drive a Toyota and never have issues running off the road or
> bumping
>>>>>>>into stuff. Driver's are going to get a bad reputation for
>>>>>>>running off roads. I've told them time and time again I'm right
>>>>>>>about this but they don't listen. We ought eliminate Chevy's
> before
>>>>>>>pedestrians get the wrong idea about people behind the wheel.
>>>>>>Plagerized word exchange below...
>>>>>
>>>>>>In response to Feature Writer Alena Roberts - Deciding When to Take
>
>>>>>>Your
>>>>>>flip flops With You
>>>>>>I would like to express my opinion on the question posed by Alena
>>>>>>Roberts;
>>>>>>namely, when to take and when not to take your flip flops. I come
> at
>>>>>>this
>>>>>>from a point of view which Alena may not have expected--I am a
> blind
>>>>>>person
>>>>>>who has always used sneakers and does not want flip flops. I have
>>>>>>sometimes
>>>>>>not understood why my flip flop using friends drag their flip flops
>>>>>>along. Here is a
>>>>>>scenario which is difficult for me to understand.
>>>>>>You are taking a cab to a restaurant, maybe by yourself, maybe to
> meet
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>friend. You will then take a cab home.
>>>>>>1. You go from the door of your house to the cab.
>>>>>>2. You go from the cab to the door of the restaurant, where the
> host or
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>waiter/waitress helps you find a table.
>>>>>>3. You repeat the process in reverse, restaurant to cab, cab to
> home.
>>>>>>You are not really doing any independent travel. Why, then, do you
> need
>>>>>>your
>>>>>>flip flops? It seems to me that it's a lot of trouble and hassle to
>>>>>>take flip flops on
>>>>>>such an occasion, not to mention that the flip flops may be in the
> way
>>>>>>at
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>table, or in the cab. Why not use your sneakers?
>>>>>>I don't even understand why Ms. Roberts says she "dislikes using
>>>>>>sneakers. Sneakers are merely a tool, like a hammer or screw
> driver.
>>>>>>I use it when I need
>>>>>>it, and I'm glad to have it. I can't even imagine wanting flip
> flops.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Brad Dunse
>>>>>
>>>>>>Inspiration is sweating over the pen...
>>>>>> then smiling at what was written. --Anonymous
>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.facebook.com/braddunse
>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.twitter.com/braddunse
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>Writers Division web site:
>>>>>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>
>>>>>>stylist mailing list
>>>>>>stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
>>>>>>stylist:
>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/steve.jaco
> bson%
>> 40visi.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>
>>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
>>>>> stylist:
>>>>>
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> %40v
>> erizon.net
>>>
>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Writers Division web site:
>>>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>
>>>>stylist mailing list
>>>>stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>stylist:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobs
> on%40
>> visi.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Writers Division web site:
>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>
>>> stylist mailing list
>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
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> %40v
>> erizon.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
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> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>
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>> _______________________________________________
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> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 09:15:40 -0400
> From: Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net>
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
> Message-ID: <75EA815871034D85900B3762C673601A at dell5150>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=response
>
> Thanks Brad. You brought closure to this issue. I think. Judith
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brad Dunse'" <lists at braddunsemusic.com>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 8:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>
>
>>
>>>I think perhaps the writer of this old love song pretty much
> summarized
>>>the point of this topic.
>>
>>>When you consider the topic , its not a denomination of travel
> religion,
>>>very simpley either you believe you can get there or you don't, and
> how
>>>that is done according to your own abilities, immediate circumstances,
>
>>>obstacles, safety etc. is personal choice.
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0WDS-EQoIM
>>
>> Brad
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>
>> stylist mailing list
>> stylist at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> stylist:
>>
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> ne.net
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 09:35:54 -0400
> From: Judith Bron <jbron at optonline.net>
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
> Message-ID: <AC1B580007374006AB64F0686E97AE81 at dell5150>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=response
>
> Marion, You can litigate laws and how people should respond to others,
> but
> ultimately how a person behaves depends on that person. Some people are
>
> just plain stupid or uneducated to understand. Here's a story that
> turhned
> out all right, but the amount of stupidity involved is mind boggling.
> Years ago I went to a health center for medical care. One day I walked
> in,
> up to the desk and gave my name and the doctor I had an appointment to
> see.
> The woman behind the desk said, "Please fill out these forms."
> I responded, "I'm sorry, I'm legally blind and unable to fill out the
> forms."
> She said, "No problem, I'll just put down that you're beligerant and
> refuse
> to fill them out."
> Huh? I told her, "I'm not beligerant and I didn't rrefuse to fill them
> out.
> I told you I couldn't because I'm legally blind."
> She handed me back the clip board and told me to fill them out. I threw
>
> back the clip board. The next thing I knew lots of people, some wearing
>
> little white coats, surrounded me. A man came up to me and asked,
> "What's
> the problem?"
> He asked in that professional tone that makes you suspicious. I asked,
> "Who
> are you?"
> He answered, "I'm a social worker."
> I answered, "I am too. What does social work have to do with this?"
> He said that I assaulted the woman. He may have been right. I
> explained my
> disability and that she insisted that I fill out the forms even though
> I'm
> not capable of it. Another woman came over and filled out the forms for
> me.
> The questions, if anyone had looked, were already answered in my file.
> As I
> left the reception area to see the doctor this lady said, "Legally blind
>
> people can fill out forms! My mother is legally blind and drives a
> car!"
> I simply told her, "Honey, I'm not your mother."
> I don't look blind, but my vision has gotten progressively worse since
> my
> exacerbation. If this person looked in the file or asked my Primary
> care
> physician she would have been told I'm legally blind. The point to all
> of
> this is people don't think when they see a white cane, wheelchair or
> hearing
> aid. Perhaps their reaction reflects an element of fear that if they
> get
> too close to the person using such aids they might catch whatever that
> person has. Perhaps its plain stupidity. I'll never know. Just keep
> in
> mind that the law might read one thing but if a person is ignorant of
> the
> law it doesn't matter. Judith
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <marion.gwizdala at verizon.net>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 8:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>
>
>> Judith,
>> My point in making the analogy of your Judaism is to bring this
> issue
>> into terms more people can understand. Let me offer a true story.
>> I was leaving my wife's house when we were dating and called for a
> cab.
>> When I got into the cab with my guide dog, the cab driver told me he
> would
>> not transport me because he didn't allow dogs in his cab. We sat in
>> Merry's driveway for a half hour as I attempted to convince the driver
>
>> that all would be okay and that there was a law that required him to
>> transport me. After the half hour, frustrated with his unwillingness
> to
>> carry me, I called the sheriff's office and spoke with the dispatcher
> who,
>> interestingly enough, claimed there was no such law. I gave him the
>> statute number and began quoting the law verbatim, including the
> penalty
>> clause. (Florida's law is a criminal statute.) The driver, realizing
> he
>> might be in serious trouble, decided to take me home.
>> When I arrived home, I again contacted the sheriff's office and
> asked
>> that a deputy come to my home so I could file a report. Again, I was
> told
>> that no law had been broken that was under the jurisdiction of the
>> sheriff's office. I again cited and quoted the law to no avail. I
> finally
>> asked the person to have a sergeant contact me.
>> when the sergeant called he stated that, although he was aware of
> the
>> law, he didn't feel it had been broken because, after all, the driver
> did
>> finally transport me. Here is the actual conversation that ensued.
>>
>> "Sir, with all due respect, are you African American?"
>> Yes, but what bearing has that?"
>> "If you entered a cab and the driver asserted that he would not carry
> an
>> African American and it took you a half hour and threats of filing
>> criminal charges against him before he would transport you, would you
> say
>> you were discriminated against?"
>> "I will be right over to take your complaint!"
>>
>> The case went to court, the driver's attorney asserted that he did
> not
>> violate the law since he did eventually transport me. the driver was
> found
>> guilty of vilating Florida's anti discrimination laws, was fined $500,
> and
>> ordered to serve 20 hours of community service.
>> The point of all of this is to say that we are more conscious of
> how
>> discrimination based upon race, ethnicity, or religion occurs than
> that of
>> disability. If we question the behavior by substituting one of these
> other
>> characteristics and believe it would be discriminatory, we are better
> able
>> to assess those actions as they pertain to us as disabled individuals.
>> Many blind people will assert, "If they don't want me at that
> place,
>> why should I go?" If blacks were to have said the same thing as it
>> pertains to Woolworth's or the Freedom Riders as it pertains to buses
> and
>> terminals, where would civil rights be today. BTW, May 16 at 9:00 pm
> on
>> PBS will be a documentary on the Freedom Riders. I believe every blind
>
>> person should watch this program, as it is also part of our heritage!
>> Discrimination, no matter what the reason, is offensive and founded in
>
>> ignorance. As leaders in the Federation - and as grass roots members -
> we
>> must be committed to removing the ignorance by every means possible!
> This
>> includes education, when appropriate, and litigation when necessary.
> One
>> of my adages is, "It is better to educate than to litigate! I will
> educate
>> when I can and litigate when I must!"
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Judith Bron" <jbron at optonline.net>
>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:20 PM
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>
>>
>>> Where did my Jewish identity come in? If a restaurant or anything
> else
>>> doesn't allow Jews based on their religion chances are pretty good
>>> they've already been reported to authorities. Many years ago in
> Florida
>>> my in laws were vacationing. My late mother in law had darker skin,
>>> resembling an Italian or Middle Eastern complexion. She and my late
>>> father in law had reservations in a hotel. When they walked in the
>>> person at the desk told them that my mother in law could not stay.
> They
>>> didn't allow people described with the N word to be guests in their
>>> hotel. My father in law toldd them he couldn't stay either. There's
> a
>>> big difference between a dog and a Jew with a darker complexion or a
> Jew
>>> who looks as white as an Aryian. Today all public establishments are
>>> mandated to allow guide dogs into their establishment. However the
>>> person using the guide dog has to make their own determination as to
>>> weather or not they want to take their animal there.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <marion.gwizdala at verizon.net>
>>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:00 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>>
>>>
>>>> Judith,
>>>> I would like to respectfully disagree with some of your message.
> How
>>>> one handles an issue of going to someone's home is up to them. My
>>>> feeling is that, if I am invited to someone's home who knows me,
> that
>>>> person knows I have a guide dog. If they advise me that they are
>>>> amenable to the presence of my dog, I will make the choice based
> upon
>>>> this fact. If, however, they say nothing, I will not ask and will
> not
>>>> bring my dog. I believe that doing so puts someone on the spot and
> they
>>>> may agree to let me bring my dog in spite of their wishes that I not
> do
>>>> so for fear that they may be seen as rude. Again, this is my
> approach
>>>> and, by no means, do I believe this is the only way to handle it. It
> is
>>>> my way. I am not one who believes, as I have stated previously, that
> if
>>>> you do not accept my dog you don't accept me!
>>>> As to the issue of a public accommodation telling me I am not
> welcome
>>>> with my dog, I will offer no apology. It is a violation of both
> state
>>>> and federal law to discriminate against a disabled individual
>>>> accompanied by a service dog unless the dog poses a direct threat to
> the
>>>> health or safety of others that cannot be eliminated by a reasonable
>
>>>> modification of policies, practices, and procedures or if my dog is
> out
>>>> of control and I do not take immediate action to correct the
> behavior.
>>>> Period. End of Story! On this issue I am as intolerant as I hope you
>
>>>> would be if a restaurant told you they did not allow Jews! I would
>>>> attempt to educate them, but if they persisted in their
> discrimination,
>>>> they would find themselves under arrest! In Florida, as is true in
> 33
>>>> other states, discrimination based upon disability is a criminal
>>>> offense!
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Judith Bron" <jbron at optonline.net>
>>>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 1:07 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi, As a former dog owner I know that there are always situations
> where
>>>>> a dog is not welcome. If you are going to a party or to visit a
> friend
>>>>> it's appropriate to ask if they would mind if you brought your
> guide
>>>>> dog. If you are going to a public place like a restaurant or
> theater
>>>>> let your mind guide you based on experience. If the Maitredee says
>
>>>>> that dogs are not welcome in a restaurant apologize for bringing
> him
>>>>> this time, but promise not to bring him again. If you are going to
> the
>>>>> theater or a concert ask friends if your dog might get in the way
> of
>>>>> others at the event. If yes then let your dog take care of his
> bodily
>>>>> functions, leave him plenty of water, make sure the heat is on in
> the
>>>>> winter and the air conditioner in the summer and wait for your
> ride.
>>>>> For those of you who think I'm not sensitive to guide dog users,
> let me
>>>>> present an analogy.
>>>>> Babies are not always welcome in certain situations. If you want
> to go
>>>>> to a movie taking a baby isn't fair to other theater goers. Babys
> cry.
>>>>> The same goes for the theater and concerts. If you are going to a
>>>>> gathering of adults or a party at a friend's often bringing a baby
> is
>>>>> inappropriate. There is no question that you love your baby and it
>>>>> hurts to be apart from him or her, but you have the freedom to say
> no
>>>>> to an invitation that would require you to leave your child with a
>>>>> sitter. Judith
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 9:41 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Marion,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have seen your handling of other situations and correspondence
> so I
>>>>>> know you are a fair-minded individual, so please understand that
> is
>>>>>> not the question
>>>>>> in my mind. My experience with you is what caused me to be a
> little
>>>>>> surprised at the strength of your response. However, I also see
> that
>>>>>> the sentence you
>>>>>> quote below is at the very least one that can be interpreted in
>>>>>> several ways, and that it isn't written in a way that stimulates
> fair
>>>>>> discussion. I won't spend
>>>>>> time defending his choice of words because the choice was a poor
> one,
>>>>>> I just saw what he said as a poor way of asking a question rather
> than
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> expression of intollerance. In addition, I have followed
> discussions
>>>>>> on other lists about when it might be best to leave a dog at home
> and
>>>>>> why it might not be
>>>>>> a good idea to do that, so I suppose that the question didn't seem
>
>>>>>> that out of line even though I would not have chosen to ask it in
> that
>>>>>> way or regarding a
>>>>>> situation of that nature. Anyway, that's probably enough said, at
>
>>>>>> least by me, and it is probably off topic here anyway except for
> the
>>>>>> obvious issue of how
>>>>>> words can be interpreted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 10 May 2011 14:43:33 -0400, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Steve,
>>>>>>> I feel the tone of Mr. Hendel's comments about taking a guide
> dog
>>>>>>> to a
>>>>>>>restaurant was set by the sentence, "I have sometimes not
> understood
>>>>>>>why my
>>>>>>>dog using friends drag their dog along." He then goes on to
> describe a
>>>>>>>visit
>>>>>>>to a restaurant in which he asserts a blind person does no
> independent
>>>>>>>travel. I admit my comments were extrapolations questioning
> whether or
>>>>>>>not
>>>>>>>Mr. Hendel uses a cane under such circumstances. It could be
> argued
>>>>>>>that, if
>>>>>>>a blind person is not doing any independent traveling and,
> therefore,
>>>>>>>has no
>>>>>>>need for a guide dog, that one would not have a need for a cane
>>>>>>>either.
>>>>>>>After all, the question could very well be, "What need has a blind
>
>>>>>>>person
>>>>>>>for a cane, since there is no independent travel?"
>>>>>>> I would also like to categorically state that I do not believe
>
>>>>>>> that a
>>>>>>>guide dog or a cane is the best told for independent travel, just
> as I
>>>>>>>would
>>>>>>>not assert that a hammer, screwdriver, plumb, level, saw, or any
> other
>>>>>>>tool
>>>>>>>of the carpentry trade is better. It depends upon the job for
> which
>>>>>>>the tool
>>>>>>>will be used. I have used a hammer on a screw and a screwdriver on
> a
>>>>>>>nail;
>>>>>>>however, the proper tool for the needed application would have
> worked
>>>>>>>better
>>>>>>>if I had it at my disposal.
>>>>>>> Although I missed the article that triggered Mr. Hendel's
>>>>>>> comments, it
>>>>>>>seemed to loathe the use of the white cane. I am not a guide dog
> user
>>>>>>>with
>>>>>>>such loathing. In fact, as I mentioned in my rebuttal earlier, I
> am as
>>>>>>>proficient with my white cane as I am with my guide dog.
> Furthermore,
>>>>>>>I am a
>>>>>>>strong advocate for maintaining such proficiency in order to
> maintain
>>>>>>>independence in a variety of circumstances.
>>>>>>> For instance, as a professional musician I am frequently asked
> to
>>>>>>>perform at private parties at people's homes. I will not, under
> any
>>>>>>>circumstances, ask a customer if it is okay for me to bring my
> guide
>>>>>>>dog. I
>>>>>>>know full well that, if I should ask, I may not get an honest
> answer.
>>>>>>>All
>>>>>>>too many people might feel as if it were disrespectful to say,
> "No!"
>>>>>>>to such
>>>>>>>a request, even though that is their desire. those who know me
> well
>>>>>>>enough
>>>>>>>to know that I am a guide dog user will let me know that it is
>>>>>>>alright;
>>>>>>>however, if they do not, I will not inquire. The same is true when
> I
>>>>>>>am
>>>>>>>invited to someone's home for other reasons. I am not one who
> asserts,
>>>>>>>"If
>>>>>>>they don't want my dog, they don't want me!" I think such
> assertions
>>>>>>>are
>>>>>>>ludicrous!In such circumstances, I need to be independent and that
>
>>>>>>>means
>>>>>>>using my cane.
>>>>>>> There are many other reasons I will opt for my white cane
> rather
>>>>>>> than my
>>>>>>>guide dog. I live in Florida and when the weather is nice, it is
> very
>>>>>>>nice.
>>>>>>>When it is not, though, it can be awful! I might need to go out
> when
>>>>>>>it is
>>>>>>>raining, but a wet dog is not pleasant, so I will leave him home
> and
>>>>>>>take my
>>>>>>>cane. I also enjoy concerts and many venues do not have adequate
> room
>>>>>>>for a
>>>>>>>100-pound dog, not to mention that many concert-goers tend to like
> to
>>>>>>>imbibe
>>>>>>>for the experience. Such a large, intoxicated crowd isn't the best
> for
>>>>>>>my
>>>>>>>dog! Then there are those times - like those of us who are parents
>
>>>>>>>know -
>>>>>>>that we just don't want the hassle of dealing with kids or dogs!
>>>>>>> There is so much more I could say on the subject line, but
> suffice
>>>>>>> it to
>>>>>>>say that I am not an absolutistic thinker when it comes to the
>>>>>>>subject. As
>>>>>>>my response to maid Ziegler said, I have had a dog in my life
> since I
>>>>>>>was
>>>>>>>four years old. I like dogs. I even have a dog for my dog! (grin)
> If
>>>>>>>I'm
>>>>>>>going to have a dog, why not have a guide dog? On the other hand,
> I
>>>>>>>have
>>>>>>>blind friends who do not like dogs and, therefore, would not
> consider
>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>guide dog. I don't understand why people don't like dog, but I
> don't
>>>>>>>think
>>>>>>>they are bad people because they don't! I like beer; my wife likes
>
>>>>>>>rum!
>>>>>>>Well, I like rum, too, but know my wife won't drink my beer! It's
> all
>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>matter of choice and preference!
>>>>>>> I am open to discussing more about the issue of guide dogs and
>
>>>>>>> white
>>>>>>>canes. I will never proclaim one is better than the other, though,
> so
>>>>>>>it
>>>>>>>will never be "guide dog vs. cane"! Now, let's have a beer....or
> some
>>>>>>>rum!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>>>>>To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 10:44 PM
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This subject has always been one that has interested me. As a
> cane
>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>> who has tried to be careful to defend the
>>>>>>>> rights of persons using canes or dogs, I have always been one
> who
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> tried to understand both methods. What I
>>>>>>>> have found in general, though, that no serious discussion of the
>>>>>>>> differences, the strengths and weaknesses of each,
>>>>>>>> the attributes of what might make one method work for some and
> the
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> for others, can ever occur without things
>>>>>>>> breaking down. I did not see everything that was written in the
>
>>>>>>>> magazine
>>>>>>>> but have only seen what was written here
>>>>>>>> so perhaps I have missed something. However, I didn't see
> anything
>>>>>>>> written that said that a dog should not be taken
>>>>>>>> to a restaurant, only an interest in understanding why it might
> be
>>>>>>>> done in
>>>>>>>> the particular situation described. I did not
>>>>>>>> see him say that sighted guide need to be used, I interpreted
> him to
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> assuming that a cane would be used because
>>>>>>>> it is my understanding that persons who use dogs generally know
> how
>>>>>>>> to use
>>>>>>>> a cane as well. What I saw in his writing
>>>>>>>> was a guy who was clearly a cane user but who wondered. I
> thought
>>>>>>>> he was
>>>>>>>> simply saying that each was a tool and
>>>>>>>> why wouldn't one just use whatever tool fit in the same way that
>
>>>>>>>> those of
>>>>>>>> us prefer to use straight canes might switch
>>>>>>>> to a telescopic cane in some cases. From my perspective, I do
>>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>>> that people and dogs work as a team and
>>>>>>>> that there are always risks when the team is not working
> together,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> that may be the best answer that one might
>>>>>>>> give him along with some of the others that were given here. I
> can
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> of a few more answers that I might have
>>>>>>>> given such as what if my plans changed. What if after a nice
> dinner
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> decided to walk home instead of taking a cab,
>>>>>>>> or if I was on a date, what if the opportunity arose to not
> return
>>>>>>>> directly home. There are simply a lot of responses and
>>>>>>>> areas to explore without assuming that the question was raised
> as a
>>>>>>>> die-hard intollerant cane user. There are some of
>>>>>>>> those who use canes, and there are even some who use dogs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 09 May 2011 15:56:35 -0500, Brad Dunse' wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>You know I saw a Chevy in the ditch the other day, they can't
> even
>>>>>>>>>>stay on the road... people just can't drive right when they
> drive a
>>>>>>>>>>Chevy. Always bumping into things and stuff. Now I know if they
> had
>>>>>>>>>>a Toyota... well, that just wouldn't have happened at all. I
> mean I
>>>>>>>>>>drive a Toyota and never have issues running off the road or
>>>>>>>>>>bumping
>>>>>>>>>>into stuff. Driver's are going to get a bad reputation for
>>>>>>>>>>running off roads. I've told them time and time again I'm
> right
>>>>>>>>>>about this but they don't listen. We ought eliminate Chevy's
> before
>>>>>>>>>>pedestrians get the wrong idea about people behind the wheel.
>>>>>>>>>Plagerized word exchange below...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>In response to Feature Writer Alena Roberts - Deciding When to
> Take
>>>>>>>>>Your
>>>>>>>>>flip flops With You
>>>>>>>>>I would like to express my opinion on the question posed by
> Alena
>>>>>>>>>Roberts;
>>>>>>>>>namely, when to take and when not to take your flip flops. I
> come at
>>>>>>>>>this
>>>>>>>>>from a point of view which Alena may not have expected--I am a
> blind
>>>>>>>>>person
>>>>>>>>>who has always used sneakers and does not want flip flops. I
> have
>>>>>>>>>sometimes
>>>>>>>>>not understood why my flip flop using friends drag their flip
> flops
>>>>>>>>>along. Here is a
>>>>>>>>>scenario which is difficult for me to understand.
>>>>>>>>>You are taking a cab to a restaurant, maybe by yourself, maybe
> to
>>>>>>>>>meet a
>>>>>>>>>friend. You will then take a cab home.
>>>>>>>>>1. You go from the door of your house to the cab.
>>>>>>>>>2. You go from the cab to the door of the restaurant, where the
> host
>>>>>>>>>or a
>>>>>>>>>waiter/waitress helps you find a table.
>>>>>>>>>3. You repeat the process in reverse, restaurant to cab, cab to
>>>>>>>>>home.
>>>>>>>>>You are not really doing any independent travel. Why, then, do
> you
>>>>>>>>>need
>>>>>>>>>your
>>>>>>>>>flip flops? It seems to me that it's a lot of trouble and hassle
> to
>>>>>>>>>take flip flops on
>>>>>>>>>such an occasion, not to mention that the flip flops may be in
> the
>>>>>>>>>way at
>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>table, or in the cab. Why not use your sneakers?
>>>>>>>>>I don't even understand why Ms. Roberts says she "dislikes using
>>>>>>>>>sneakers. Sneakers are merely a tool, like a hammer or screw
> driver.
>>>>>>>>>I use it when I need
>>>>>>>>>it, and I'm glad to have it. I can't even imagine wanting flip
>>>>>>>>>flops.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Brad Dunse
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Inspiration is sweating over the pen...
>>>>>>>>> then smiling at what was written. --Anonymous
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>http://www.braddunsemusic.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>http://www.facebook.com/braddunse
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>http://www.twitter.com/braddunse
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>Writers Division web site:
>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>>>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>stylist mailing list
>>>>>>>>>stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info
>>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>stylist:
>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/steve.j
> acobson%40visi.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>>>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> stylist:
>>>>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/marion.gwizdala
> %40verizon.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>Writers Division web site:
>>>>>>>http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>>><http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>stylist mailing list
>>>>>>>stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
>>>>>>>stylist:
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/steve.jac
> obson%40visi.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
>>>>>> stylist:
>>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/jbron%40optonli
> ne.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>>
>>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
>>>>> stylist:
>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/marion.gwizdala
> %40verizon.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Writers Division web site:
>>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>>
>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
>>>> stylist:
>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/jbron%40optonli
> ne.net
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Writers Division web site:
>>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
>>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>>
>>> stylist mailing list
>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>
>>> stylist:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/marion.gwizdala
> %40verizon.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>
>> stylist mailing list
>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> stylist:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/jbron%40optonli
> ne.net
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 10:56:06 -0400
> From: "Donna Hill" <penatwork at epix.net>
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] stylist Digest, Vol 85, Issue 11
> Message-ID:
> <20110512145613.77AF22F80A2 at relay04.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Yes, yes, yes! There are those who marvel at the fact that I can tie my
> own
> shoes while "praising" me for being so independent. There's also the
> "you
> don't look blind" and "you're doing so well with your handicap; not like
> ..." Both of these make me feel like they're trying to get me to be a
> traitor to my own kind, by culling me from the herd. What? I'm supposed
> to
> be flattered that you see most blind people as subhuman and I'm just a
> little better than that in your estimation? It really aggravates the
> heck
> out of me. I haven't found an appropriate way to talk/write about this
> one.
> Dr. Maurer in one of his speeches mentioned that his wife's dentist
> asked
> who brushed her teeth for her. All I can say is that we have a long,
> long
> way to go.
> Donna
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Justin Williams
> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 1:30 AM
> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [stylist] stylist Digest, Vol 85, Issue 11
>
> Well said. Well said. I have walked miles through city; rain or shine;
> daye or night. I found that as a blind person, my determination is
> looked
> at with either awe, or slight resentment. "You are so independent." It
> is
> a phrase I have often heard. "You don't let your blindness stop you."
> of
> course not. I mean really, would you sit at home if you were blind I
> have
> often wondered. I have found that women act as if because I am able to
> walk
> around by my-self, I don't need them or something so I not worth dating
> because they can't mother me. Either I am given too much credit, or not
> enough. Any of you folks experience some of this?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Donna Hill
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:06 PM
> To: cosmoscat at earthlink.net; 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [stylist] stylist Digest, Vol 85, Issue 11
>
> Hi Kerry,
> Good points. I wonder where such a story would lead? In my family, there
> are
> three blind people with different choices for mobility. I use a guide
> dog;
> my brother and sister-in-law use canes. We all occasionally go sighted
> guide
> for one reason or another. Between guide dogs, I use a cane.
>
> We are accepting of one another's choices. My brother often jokes that
> when
> they start training beagles, he'll get a guide dog. Once when I
> questioned
> him about his choice many years ago, he took a long sigh and said,
> "Donna,
> do you see this cane? When I come home from work, I hang it on the back
> of
> the door, and it doesn't bother me for the rest of the night." His
> comments
> opened my eyes to the fact that people, even those who genuinely love
> dogs,
> have a variety of reasons for the choices they make.
>
> I used to think he was less independent than I, because I could tell my
> dog
> to take me to the bank or store or post office or whatever, and he can't
> do
> that with his cane. For a time, he would actually say unprovoked that I
> was
> more independent than he was, but it wasn't true. He had chosen a career
> path that took him to the same address every day; I had chosen one that
> required me to travel and rarely return to the same location. My
> increased
> mobility had nothing to do with my ability or his lack of it. If he had
> chosen a different path, he would have accomplished his goals as a cane
> user.
>
> My brother and sister-in-law know that I love the whole "having a dog"
> thing; they also know that I have and can use a cane -- even if I have
> named
> it Bielsebub. Nowadays, with me living in the middle of nowhere and
> totally
> dependent on sighted people to drive me to town, there's no doubt in my
> mind
> that their choice of staying in the city has allowed them to be more
> independent.
>
> In my opinion, the reason behind the lack of support which is shown to
> people who have made different choices is rooted in the residual
> discomfort
> they have with their own blindness. I don't exclude myself from this.
> With
> people being born blind and losing vision gradually or suddenly at every
> stage of life, the adjustment and ability to thrive is on a continuum.
> We
> have all experienced discrimination and in many cases countless
> humiliations. Our abilities to fully overcome these is affected by many
> things. We're lucky to occasionally find someone who is on the same
> section
> of the road as we are.
>
> I think that, when you are receiving flack for going sighted guide, it
> has
> more to do with the judger's lack of independence than your own -- and I
> mean mental independence here. Bridgit's story about getting flack for
> holding hands with her husband is a rather poignant case in point.
>
> The public perception is largely negative about the ability of blind
> people
> to be, act, travel or whatever independently. Fighting against this
> causes
> some of us to categorize other blind people who choose to use a
> different
> form of mobility as a manifestation of the social stereotype. While it
> would
> be great for our cause if we could all stand up as one -- equally
> independent, equally well-adjusted, equally successful by the world's
> and
> our own standards and so on -- that's not realistic. It's not Bridgit's
> responsibility to make sure every time anyone sees her and her husband
> in
> public it is obvious that each can travel independently. Similarly, it's
> not
> your responsibility to refrain from going sighted guide just so no
> prejudiced sighted person looks at you and thinks that blind people
> "can't
> travel independently." It's also not my job to leave my dog home because
> someone at a restaurant might not be comfortable with a dog.
>
> Donna
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Kerry Thompson
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 2:13 PM
> To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [stylist] stylist Digest, Vol 85, Issue 11
>
> Hi friends,
>
> In my limited experience, cane users are often smug and self-righteous,
> as the letter writer seems to be, contemptuous of dog users.
>
> To say, for example, that no independent travel occurs in the scenario
> described makes no sense at all. Even if the cab draws right up to the
> door of the house, it can't draw right up to the door of the restaurant.
>
> The traveler has to make his way across the sidewalk and find the door
> of the restaurant. The sidewalk may well be crowded and the cab driver
> might or might not be willing to assist. Then, as Bridgid points out,
> inside the restaurant the traveler might need to go to the restroom or
> (showing my age here) use the pay phone. While the traveler's dinner
> companion or a member of the wait staff might be willing or able to
> guide the traveler, surely being able to make such excursions
> independently would be preferable.
> Then, at the end of the evening, as Marion points out, the traveler may
> not go straight home.
>
> I don't understand the letter writer's attitude. No matter how you look
> at it, the traveler's guide dog is just as necessary to him in the given
>
> scenario as a cane user's cane would be to him in the same situation.
> But the letter writer's tone if not perhaps his actual words certainly
> seem to imply that a guide dog user is not independent. This is the
> attitude I've often seen coming from cane users. And yet, as everyone
> here agrees, guide dog use and cane use, and even reliance on a sighted
> guide, are all equally valid methods of travel. Which one any given
> person chooses depends on the traveler's disposition and needs and, as
> Marion and Bridgid each note, on the immediate circumstances.
>
> But, you know, it's a funny thing. Dog users seem in general to be open
> to cane use, while cane users seem all too often to be contemptuous of
> dog use. It reminds me of a situation in fandom. People who love
> Engelbert Humperdink often also like Tom Jones. But Tom Jones fans are
> often hostile to Engelbert. The two situations make just about as much,
> which is to say as little, sense.
>
> I wonder... Has anyone ever written a story exploring the conflict, for
> lack of a more precise word, between cane advocates and dog advocates?
>
> And BTW as a matter of interest, why do both camps look down on those of
>
> us who use sighted guides? I have never felt that leaning on a friend's
> or family member's arm diminishes me as a human being.
>
> Kerry
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 11:49:07 -0400
> From: "PAUL BAVER" <pebaver at verizon.net>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
> Message-ID: <0CC3713C35194F529320B8C424750B05 at DENNEY>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=response
>
> There you go Brad it couldn't be said more clearly, Paul E Baver
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brad Dunse'" <lists at braddunsemusic.com>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 8:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Canes and dogs
>
>
>>
>>>I think perhaps the writer of this old love song pretty much
> summarized
>>>the point of this topic.
>>
>>>When you consider the topic , its not a denomination of travel
> religion,
>>>very simpley either you believe you can get there or you don't, and
> how
>>>that is done according to your own abilities, immediate circumstances,
>
>>>obstacles, safety etc. is personal choice.
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0WDS-EQoIM
>>
>> Brad
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org
> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>
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>> stylist:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/pebaver%40veriz
> on.net
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
>
> End of stylist Digest, Vol 85, Issue 13
> ***************************************
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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