[stylist] Comma rules

Mon May 20 17:58:13 UTC 2013

Bridget, I am so glad this is a writing group rather than a
mathematical group. haha Eve

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Bridgit Pollpeter
<bpollpeter at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Eve,
>
> I leave the math to the experts, grin. But yes, in your example,
> dropping the comma before and is how it's often done today, and I prefer
> this way, but again, it's not wrong either.
>
> However, when *and* is connecting two complete sentences, you place a
> comma before and. As in, "Jake and Darcy walked to the park, and they
> decided to sit on the swings."
>
> If the sentence after and is not a complete sentence though, then
> there's no comma. As in, "Jake and Darcy walked to the park and sat on
> the swings."
>
> Bridgit
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Eve
> Sanchez
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 11:17 AM
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Comma rules
>
>
> Bridget, Thank you for taking all the time this needed. It is very
> helpful. I do have a question, but first a comment. One of the sentences
> in number 9 made no sense.  "The average temperatures  for July 1998 are
> the highest on record for that month.")
>
> An average is taken from the mean which would mean that there are
> temperatures higher as well as lower, so by definition, it is
> impossible for the average to be the highest.        Now my
> question... I have been told that things have changed in whatever
> thinktank decides these things, that they now want less commas and so
> the comma before 'and' is dropped. Example of what I am so poorly trying
> to say: My dogs are a pitbull, a golden retriever and a chiwoodle. Well,
> I hope I puncuated this post correctly. Eve
>
> On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Donna Hill <penatwork at epix.net> wrote:
>> Bridgit,
>> It might be because I run Word 2010 and Outlook 2003.
>> Donna
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit
>
>> Pollpeter
>> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 10:30 AM
>> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Comma rules
>>
>> This is why I can't stress enough to people that relying on Spell
>> Check alone is a bad, bad idea. There are so many times I can't figure
>
>> out why it wants to change something, and had I listened to Spell
>> Check, I would have been wrong.
>>
>> I'm not sure why Outlook's Spell Check would differ from Word. They
>> are part of the same program, so one would assume it's all the same.
>> Interesting. I guess I've never paid attention to this. I will have to
>
>> start and see if I notice this too.
>>
>> Bridgit
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Donna
>> Hill
>> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2013 7:36 PM
>> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Comma rules
>>
>>
>> Bridgit,
>> Yes, and I do prefer the comma myself, but I thought it was
>> technically wrong. I am not so fond of semicolons and use them only
>> under duress.
>> *grin*
>>
>>
>> Have you ever noticed that MS Word's Spell Check seems to want them
>> all over the place? I can't get a handle on what it thinks the rule
>> is; sometimes, a word like "So" at the beginning of a sentence will
>> trigger the semicolon prompt, and sometimes, it doesn't care. Many
>> times, when I have a few things listed like this next sentence, it
>> wants the phrases separated with semicolons. "He walked around the
>> park, picked up a trash bag's worth of litter and left without saying
>> a word to anyone."
>>
>> For some reason, I fined this happens more when I'm writing a Word
>> document than when I'm using Outlook to write e-mails, though I
>> thought it was the same Spell Check.
>>
>> I'll have to refresh my memory about the semicolon rules. Thanks for
>> the links. Donna
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit
>
>> Pollpeter
>> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2013 5:50 PM
>> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Comma rules
>>
>> You are correct, and technically "Aren't you," is a complete sentence,
>
>> but in context of this example, it's acting as a question attached to
>> the first clause. To be perfectly honest, I don't think it's wrong to
>> use a semicolon, but typically a semicolon is a clause that can stand
>> completely on its own yet be combined with the previous clause. In
>> this example, aren't you begs the question, aren't you what? So a
>> comma attaches it to the first part. Based on the definition in number
>
>> 7, the comma is acting as a pause or distinct shift. The "aren't you,"
>
>> in the example is a pause or shift as the speaker ask a question
>> pertaining to being the senator's friend. I hope this makes sense. My
>> post is taken from the OWL Purdue website, and personally, I would
>> follow this particular example.
>>
>> Below are links to both the comma rules and semicolon rules:
>>
>> http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/607/02/http://owl.english.p
>> ur
>> due.edu/owl/resource/607/02/
>>
>> http://owl.english.purdue.edu/engagement/index.php?category_id=2&sub_c
>> at
>> egory_id=1&article_id=44
>>
>> Bridgit
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Donna
>> Hill
>> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2013 12:05 PM
>> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Comma rules
>>
>>
>> I was thinking of it as an implied object. Aren't sentences defined as
>
>> a subject and a verb? Donna
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit
>
>> Pollpeter
>> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 11:43 PM
>> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Comma rules
>>
>> Donna,
>>
>> Because in order to use a semi colon, the following section has to be
>> a complete sentence. So if it were to  be, "You're one of the
>> Senatores best friends; are you not a good friend?" then the semi
>> colon would be appropriate. If not a complete sentence, a comma is
>> used.
>>
>> Bridgit
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Donna
>> Hill
>> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 10:19 PM
>> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Comma rules
>>
>>
>> Bridgit,
>> A mostly excellent summation of the rules for using commas. A few
>> things hit me, including your adherence to the Oxford comma, which I
>> didn't think had many American advocates. I am wondering about the
>> following example from "7." You're one of the senator's close friends,
>
>> aren't you? Why isn't this a semicolon? Donna
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit
>
>> Pollpeter
>> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 8:54 PM
>> To: stylist at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [stylist] Comma rules
>>
>> In light of recent post, I'm pasting an extensive guide on comma
>> rules.
>>
>> 1. Use commas to separate independent clauses when they are joined by
>> any of these seven coordinating conjunctions:  and, but, for, or, nor,
>
>> so, yet.
>>
>> The game was over, but the crowd refused to leave.
>>
>> The student explained her question, yet the instructor still didn't
>> seem to understand.
>>
>> Yesterday was her brother's birthday, so she took him out to dinner.
>>
>> 2. Use commas after introductory a) clauses, b) phrases, or c) words
>> that come before the main clause.
>>
>> a. Common starter words for introductory clauses that should be
>> followed by a comma include after, although, as,  because, if, since,
>> when, while.
>>
>> While I was eating, the cat scratched at the door.
>>
>> Because her alarm clock was broken, she was late for class.
>>
>> If you are ill, you ought to see a doctor.
>>
>> When the snow stops falling, we'll shovel the driveway.
>>
>> However, don't put a comma after the main clause when a dependent
>> (subordinate) clause follows it (except for cases of  extreme
>> contrast).
>>
>> INCORRECT: The cat scratched at the door, while I was eating.
>>
>> CORRECT: She was still quite upset, although she had won the Oscar.
>> (This comma use is correct because it is an  example of extreme
>> contrast.)
>>
>> b. Common introductory phrases that should be followed by a comma
>> include participial and infinitive phrases, absolute  phrases,
>> nonessential appositive phrases, and long prepositional phrases (over
>> four words).
>>
>> Having finished the test, he left the room.
>>
>> To get a seat, you'd better come early.
>>
>> After the test but before lunch, I went jogging.
>>
>> The sun radiating intense heat, we sought shelter in the cafe.
>>
>> c. Common introductory words that should be followed by a comma
>> include yes, however, well.
>>
>> Well, perhaps he meant no harm.
>>
>> Yes, the package should arrive tomorrow morning.
>>
>> However, you may not be satisfied with the results.
>>
>> 3. Use a pair of commas in the middle of a sentence to set off
>> clauses, phrases, and words that are not essential to the  meaning of
>> the sentence. Use one comma before to indicate the beginning of the
>> pause and one at the end to indicate the  end of the pause.
>>
>> Here are some clues to help you decide whether the sentence element is
>> essential:
>>
>> .If you leave out the clause, phrase, or word, does the sentence still
>
>> make sense? .Does the clause, phrase, or word interrupt the flow of
>> words in the original sentence? .If you move the element to a
>> different position in the sentence, does the sentence still make
>> sense? If you answer "yes" to one or more of these questions, then the
>
>> element in question is nonessential and should be set off  with
>> commas. Here are some example sentences with nonessential elements:
>>
>> Clause: That Tuesday, which happens to be my birthday, is the only day
>
>> when I am available to meet.
>>
>> Phrase: This restaurant has an exciting atmosphere. The food, on the
>> other hand, is rather bland.
>>
>> Word: I appreciate your hard work. In this case, however, you seem to
>> have over-exerted yourself.
>>
>> 4. Do not use commas to set off essential elements of the sentence,
>> such as clauses beginning with that (relative clauses).  That clauses
>> after nouns are always essential. That clauses following a verb
>> expressing mental action are always essential.
>>
>> That clauses after nouns:
>>
>> The book that I borrowed from you is excellent.
>>
>> The apples that fell out of the basket are bruised.
>>
>> That clauses following a verb expressing mental action:
>>
>> She believes that she will be able to earn an A.
>>
>> He is dreaming that he can fly.
>>
>> I contend that it was wrong to mislead her.
>>
>> They wished that warm weather would finally arrive.
>>
>> Examples of other essential elements (no commas):
>>
>> Students who cheat only harm themselves.
>>
>> The baby wearing a yellow jumpsuit is my niece.
>>
>> The candidate who had the least money lost the election.
>>
>> Examples of nonessential elements (set off by commas):
>>
>> Fred, who often cheats, is just harming himself.
>>
>> My niece, wearing a yellow jumpsuit, is playing in the living room.
>>
>> The Green party candidate, who had the least money, lost the election.
>>
>> Apples, which are my favorite fruit, are the main ingredient in this
>> recipe.
>>
>> Professor Benson, grinning from ear to ear, announced that the exam
>> would be tomorrow.
>>
>> Tom, the captain of the team, was injured in the game.
>>
>> It is up to you, Jane, to finish.
>>
>> She was, however, too tired to make the trip.
>>
>> Two hundred dollars, I think, is sufficient.
>>
>> 5. Use commas to separate three or more words, phrases, or clauses
>> written in a series.
>>
>> The Constitution establishes the legislative, executive, and judicial
>> branches of government.
>>
>> The candidate promised to lower taxes, protect the environment, reduce
>
>> crime, and end unemployment.
>>
>> The prosecutor argued that the defendant, who was at the scene of the
>> crime, who had a strong revenge motive, and who  had access to the
>> murder weapon, was guilty of homicide.
>>
>> 6. Use commas to separate two or more coordinate adjectives that
>> describe the same noun. Be sure never to add an  extra comma between
>> the final adjective and the noun itself or to use commas with
>> non-coordinate adjectives.
>>
>> Coordinate adjectives are adjectives with equal ("co"-ordinate) status
>
>> in describing the noun; neither adjective is  subordinate to the
>> other. You can decide if two adjectives in a row are coordinate by
>> asking the following questions:
>>
>> .Does the sentence make sense if the adjectives are written in reverse
>
>> order? .Does the sentence make sense if the adjectives are written
>> with and between them? If you answer yes to these questions, then the
>> adjectives are coordinate and should be separated by a comma. Here are
>
>> some examples of coordinate and non-coordinate adjectives:
>>
>> He was a difficult, stubborn child. (coordinate)
>>
>> They lived in a white frame house. (non-coordinate) She often wore a
>> gray wool shawl. (non-coordinate) Your cousin has an easy, happy
>> smile.
>> (coordinate) The 1) relentless, 2) powerful 3) summer sun beat down on
> them.
>> (1-2 are coordinate; 2-3 are non-coordinate.)
>>
>> The 1) relentless, 2) powerful, 3) oppressive sun beat down on them.
>> (Both 1-2 and 2-3 are coordinate.)
>>
>> 7. Use a comma near the end of a sentence to separate contrasted
>> coordinate elements or to indicate a distinct pause or  shift.
>>
>> He was merely ignorant, not stupid.
>>
>> The chimpanzee seemed reflective, almost human.
>>
>> You're one of the senator's close friends, aren't you?
>>
>> The speaker seemed innocent, even gullible.
>>
>> 8. Use commas to set off phrases at the end of the sentence that refer
>
>> to the beginning or middle of the sentence. Such  phrases are free
>> modifiers that can be placed anywhere in the sentence without causing
>> confusion. (If the placement of the  modifier causes confusion, then
>> it is not "free" and must remain "bound" to the word it modifies.)
>>
>> Nancy waved enthusiastically at the docking ship, laughing joyously.
>> (correct)
>> INCORRECT:Lisa waved at Nancy, laughing joyously. (Who is laughing,
>> Lisa or
>> Nancy?) Laughing joyously, Lisa waved at Nancy. (correct) Lisa waved
> at
>> Nancy, who was laughing joyously. (correct)
>>
>>
>> 9. Use commas to set off all geographical names, items in dates
>> (except the month and day), addresses (except the street  number and
>> name), and titles in names.
>>
>> Birmingham, Alabama, gets its name from Birmingham, England. July 22,
>> 1959, was a momentous day in his life. Who lives at 1600 Pennsylvania
>> Avenue, Washington, DC? Rachel B. Lake, MD, will be the principal
>> speaker. (When you use just the month and the year, no comma is
>> necessary after the month or
>> year: "The average temperatures  for July
>> 1998 are the highest on record for that month.")
>>
>> 10. Use a comma to shift between the main discourse and a quotation.
>> John said without emotion, "I'll see you tomorrow."
>>
>> "I was able," she answered, "to complete the assignment."
>>
>> In 1848, Marx wrote, "Workers of the world, unite!"
>>
>> 11. Use commas wherever necessary to prevent possible confusion or
>> misreading.
>>
>> To George, Harrison had been a sort of idol.
>>
>> Comma abuse
>> Commas in the wrong places can break a sentence into illogical
>> segments or confuse readers with unnecessary and  unexpected pauses.
>>
>> 12. Don't use a comma to separate the subject from the verb.
>>
>> INCORRECT: An eighteen-year old in California, is now considered an
>> adult.
>>
>> INCORRECT: The most important attribute of a ball player, is quick
>> reflex actions.
>>
>> 13. Don't put a comma between the two verbs or verb phrases in a
>> compound predicate.
>>
>> INCORRECT: We laid out our music and snacks, and began to study.
>>
>> INCORRECT: I turned the corner, and ran smack into a patrol car.
>>
>> 14. Don't put a comma between the two nouns, noun phrases, or noun
>> clauses in a compound subject or compound  object.
>>
>> INCORRECT (compound subject): The music teacher from your high school,
>
>> and the football coach from mine are  married.
>>
>> INCORRECT (compound object): Jeff told me that the job was still
>> available, and that the manager wanted to interview  me.
>>
>> 15. Don't put a comma after the main clause when a dependent
>> (subordinate) clause follows it (except for cases of  extreme
>> contrast).
>>
>> INCORRECT: The cat scratched at the door, while I was eating.
>> CORRECT: She was still quite upset, although she had won the Oscar.
>> (This comma use is correct because it is an  example of extreme
>> contrast)
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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