[stylist] A Nervy Newcomer Fusses was(Some stuff which got deleted)

[Bridgit Pollpeter]

Bill,

Firstly, it's pretty widely accepted that Marie Antoinette did not
indeed say the phrase about let them eat cake, grin, It was most likely
propoganda written by her detractors and has gone down in history as
something she actually said. But I also assume most people are vaguely
familiar with the phrase and the general opulence of the French court at
that time. Then again, you know what they say about assuming...

I agree with Bill that we may be reading any poem posted here to literal
and not looking for deeper meaning. This can also happen in prose though
too.

It really all comes down to knowing your target audience, but when
sharing on a list like this, there's a large audience with a vast
variety of backgrounds, experiences and likes and dislikes. Both Chris
and Bill have mentioned having to explain their work here, but I don't
think it's necessarily because their writing is bad, but that we are a
varied audience, and we may not be the target audience for some. This
doesn't mean we don't have to work and revise our material, but it's
something to keep in mind.

Nonetheless, continue the sharing and critiqueing; Stylist hasn't been
this hopping in a while, smile.

Bridgit

-----Original Message-----
From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of William L
Houts
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 5:15 PM
To: stylist at nfbnet.org
Subject: [stylist] A Nervy Newcomer Fusses was(Some stuff which got
deleted)


Hi Bridgit and All,

I think Bridgit makes a valuable point here.  And the point is that 
poetry, in general, is undervalued and undertaught.  IN high school, and

even in college, you read your Robert Frost, your John Keats and call it

good.  I consider myself fairly sophisticated in my poetics, but even I 
haven't read nearly the volume and variety of poetry which would teach 
me much and serve me well as a writer, and as a critic.

If I may make a little fuss about the poetry criticism I see on the 
list; it sometimes seems a little bit literal and a little bit 
unforgiving.  Actually, this isn't quite correct.  I'm not talking about

the actual critiques which I read here;  they're generally cordial and 
respectful when considered word for word.  But I'm picking up a kind of 
hammer and nails literalism, and perhaps a bit of a failure to wrestle 
with poems to see what can be gotten from them once they've been given a

first casual look.

Because it's fresh in my mind, I bring up here something which came up 
with my Poem, "Antoinette".  Now, I'm pleased with that poem, though 
it's probably not going to net me any Wallace Stevens Awards for Lyric 
Excellence.  But I note that two readers noted that they couldn't figure

out why the heck it had "Antoinette" as its title.  ON both occasions, I

explained that this poem is about global poverty, and about the 
Speaker's relationship to it.  Now, maybe this is expecting too much, 
but I had thought that most people were acquainted with the historical 
account of the grossly overprivileged Marie Antoinette declaring "Let 
them eat cake!" in reference to the thousands dying of starvation in 
Paris streets. And I made the guess --seemingly incorrect-- that most 
intelligent readers could make the connection between the historical 
arrogant princess and the notes I was making about poverty in the modern

world.  ON both occasions, I explained about Marie Antoinette, and cake,

yadda yadda yadda.  But it does make me wonder if there's a kind of 
laziness dogging our heels here; some disinclination to work with the 
poem and find what honey can be derived from that hive, rather than 
assuming that the poet simply doesn't know what he or she is doing.

(Oh, now you're in for it, Bilbo Baggins!)


--Bill


On 3/19/2014 2:32 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote:
> Bill and all,
>
> I did enjoy Bill's poem. His style may not be for all, but that's 
> okay. As readers, were not committed into enjoying every piece of 
> literature. There's nothing wrong with this, and it's not necessarily 
> a reflection on the author either.
>
> I'm all for constructive criticism, as I've said and proved, grin. We 
> all bring a unique perspective based on our education, background, 
> life experiences, interest, etc. I feel it's important to provide 
> specific feedback so we can better our craft.
>
> I also feel it's important to share information about specific forms 
> of writing in order for us to provide the most constructive feedback 
> possible. I admit poetry wasn't always my thing. I didn't read it, I 
> wasn't often exposed to it, it rarely made sense to me. Then I studied

> poetry, and a light went off in my head. I can't say poetry is my 
> favorite form of written expression, but I have an appreciation and 
> fondness for it now. I also have a better understanding of poetry and 
> the various forms. I've learned that you have to come at poetry from a

> different perspective than prose.
>
> This discovery about poetry has also helped me discover a personal 
> style and voice within my own writing. I've found a lyrical voice to 
> provide me with the most powerful voice when writing. It's my study in

> poetry that has shaped, in part, this style for me.
>
> There are invariably multiple ways in which to study and learn 
> writing, but my first poetry prof had us do an exercise where we took 
> verbs and nouns and made a poem by stringing them together. It didn't 
> have to make sense and the words certainly didn't have to compliment 
> one another. The point was that poetry is about painting a picture 
> with words and not necessarily creating sentences and making words 
> connect by standing alone. This concept of poetry actually helped me 
> to better read it and therefore better understand it. I'm not saying I

> get every piece of poetry I read, but this study has helped me have a 
> clearer idea of the form.
>
> So I see a lot of comments about certain words together not making 
> sense or this word or line not connecting to this word or line, and I 
> wonder if we are taking poems as a whole or trying to understand one 
> word or one line at a time. Again, it's okay to not get it or even 
> like it, but I think we do ourselves a disservice to comment when we 
> don't fully understand poetry or how to critique it.
>
> This doesn't mean we can't have an opinion, but I think it's more 
> constructive when we have a fuller understanding of what we comment 
> on. It's sort of like discussing politics when we've only read blurbs 
> of what's happening in politics.
>
> A little side note: I wasn't a huge nonfiction fan until I studied it 
> too. In fact, when I first went back to university, I was in the 
> fiction track. In my course of study, you are required to take at 
> least one class and one workshop for fiction, poetry and creative 
> nonfiction. After taking my first class on creative nonfiction, I fell

> in love with it and switched tracks. Before this point, I rarely read 
> nonfiction unless it was about history, and I certainly never 
> considered writing it. Now I have a BFA in creative writing with my 
> emphasis being creative nonfiction, grin. Funny how life turns out.
>
> I think high schools need to expose students to more contemporary 
> poets and nonfiction writers. Most the stuff I read at university, I 
> had never heard of. Back in high school, we mostly read the classics, 
> which are great and many I love, but young kids need a better 
> appreciation of contemporary writers, and I think many would enjoy 
> modern poetry and nonfiction.
>
> Bridgit
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of William

> L Houts
> Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 3:52 PM
> To: stylist at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Poem - "In Case of Falling Astronauts"
>
>
> HI Bridgit,
>
> You've really articulated something here which I didn't feel it my 
> place
>
> to say.  You know how it goes:  you write something, you post it here,

> and you take whatever roses or brickbats which come your way; it's not

> really kosher to bicker with one's critics, LOL.  I'm glad you 
> appreciate the poem, to which I gave so much thought and heartsblood. 
> Thank you dearly, as I like to say.
>
>
>
> --Bill
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3/19/2014 1:31 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote:
>> Bill,
>>
>> As always, I like your imagery. An interesting look at the universe 
>> and human's place in it.
>>
>> As I've said before, I don't think poetry can always be broken down 
>> word by word; in fact, poetry is supposed to be taken apart by images

>> and metaphors, so I think some on the list are trying to analyze 
>> without looking at the whole picture. The images here are intended to

>> contrast to paint a vivid picture, I assume, and to deconstruct word 
>> by word doesn't give a clear definition of the poem. Poetry like this

>> is not meant to read like prose or look like it. Its driving force is

>> vivid imagery along with unique metaphors. Bill really knows how to 
>> apply diction to his work. So we need to stand back and take in the 
>> whole picture instead of trying to analyze each word and how each 
>> word connects to the next. Not everyone will feel something and have 
>> a clear response, but I don't think we can try to make sense of it 
>> merely by seeking out individual words.
>>
>> Bridgit
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>> William L Houts
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 4:17 PM
>> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
>> Subject: [stylist] Poem - "In Case of Falling Astronauts"
>>
>>
>> Hey Peeps,
>>
>> Here's a longer poem I wrote some time ago.  It's a bit of a 
>> warhorse, from the days when poetry slams were still the fashion.  I 
>> think it still might have legs.
>>
>>
>> --Bill
>>
>>
>> ---
>>
>>
>> In Case of Falling Astronauts, Break Glass
>>
>> I.
>>
>> o heavenly desert for a wandering tribe, nazareth to astronauts;
>>
>> cradle of prophets with mirrored faces, our mystics of absolute zero,
>>
>> striding through hells of kelvin heat or leaping lead-footed for joy.
>>
>> we knew no domes of glass nor wise antennaed
>>
>> mayors would meet our traveling boys, flown so far
>>
>> from the roiling blue, flung so far into darkness and dust.
>>
>> but if a desert, still a place of birth, you anvil moon:like silver
>>
>> minted fresh, we'd shine our lives by the pure silent hammers of sol.
>>
>> this was our dream, our all-american dream of astronauts
>>
>> grave and poetic:faces full of infinity, minds on plans
>>
>> for compassionate cities, angelic hands at work in the vine-
>>
>> yards of science.the rocket packs and rayguns were toys,
>>
>> dolls in the hands of scheming boys we never thought they'd keep.
>>
>> what we were after, as always, was space:another place to go
>>
>> when nowhere was left
>>
>> a heavenly desert to a wandering tribe,
>>
>> second bethlehem to a dream.
>>
>> II.
>>
>> I wonder what plagues we gave to the Indians of the Moon,
>>
>> I struggle to remember which treaties we broke with the LunarSioux,
>>
>> the precise year of that famous ambush sprung by
>>
>> the cavalry of the American Third Orbital Marines upon the Lakota
>>
>> living by the shores of the Sea of Tranquility.
>>
>> And I forget exactly how many chiefs we lashed to the coils
>>
>> of fusion drives, or swung from rocket gantries
>>
>> or tumbled into void with a one two three.
>>
>> I get all the dates mixed up, but from where I'm standing
>>
>> I can still smell tipis burning on lunar prairies.
>>
>> III.
>>
>> When I still played hopscotch,
>>
>> when i knew just how to throw the stone
>>
>> and what these lines are for,
>>
>> I read about Laika, the dog in space,
>>
>> How the Russians loved their doggy cosmonaut
>>
>> (a snapshot from some grade school primer:
>>
>> white coated men and a scrappy mutt
>>
>> with a lolling tongue) and how she loved her cozy Sputnik, just 
>> enough room for her race.
>>
>> I imagined the husky steering her tiny craft:
>>
>> Adroit Captain Laika, the dog between worlds,
>>
>> equal parts Egyptian goddess and loyal pet;
>>
>> the constellation, drawn in the sky with
>>
>> stars of chalk, the constellation given life,
>>
>> the Hunter's Dog unleashed to gambol and howl
>>
>> fully enfleshed in the backyards of night.
>>
>> When I still played hopscotch, and knew
>>
>> the counting rhymes, and how to get through the game
>>
>> without hitting the lines, I read about Laika:
>>
>> but not how her husky fur must have burned
>>
>> in a blaze when her tiny cage returned to earth,
>>
>> nor a word for her terrified yawp as the Sputnik
>>
>> crashed through a ceiling of air, splashed down
>>
>> in the southernmost part of the Indian Sea.
>>
>> I know she died before I was born, and how.
>>
>> But I learned it late, and now I call her:
>>
>> here girl, come on down now and lick my hand;
>>
>> and brief me on dreams brought low,
>>
>> dogs in space,these chalk marks
>>
>> whose use I used to know.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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-- 
"Let's drink a toast now to who we really are."

           --Jane Siberry


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