[Trainer-talk] exploring with pages with JAWS

Jonathan Tyrer jonathan.tyrer at gmail.com
Sat May 18 17:19:35 UTC 2013 

I take a very different approach. I believe the ability to navigate the web is the most important skill screen reader users need to acquire and I put content very much to one side at first.

This means I first make sure the learner fully understands what links are and how they should be used. I positively encourage clicking through as many pages as possible as quickly as possible before we even bother listening to content.

I take the same approach to headings and disagree that the way JAWS enforces navigation within heading levels should be changed. I teach an advanced technique called listening and the change in heading levels can give useful information about how the content is arranged.

It's interesting reading about other people's approaches. 

JT
On 17 May 2013, at 22:24, David Goldfield <disciple1211 at verizon.net> wrote:

> Hi, Bryan.
> Interesting problem.  While my students are exploring Web pages for the first time I add a few verbal comments as they are using the down arrow key to peruse the page, kind of like providing a tiny bit of extra audio description.  When they get to a link, I point out "OK, we just heard the word link" and I might briefly explain what that means but I try and encourage them to just keep reading the rest of that particular section, promising that we'll go back to that link a bit later.  If they impulsively press the enter key whenever they hear "link, such and such" I just calmly say, "let's press the backspace key to go back to the page we were just on" and hope that, eventually, they'll slowly break the habit of impulsively pressing enter on any link that they hear.  I also try to encourage them to stay with the page they're on, to see what's out there, before we choose a link.  It may not work the first time, but your gentle reinforcement may eventually cause a change of behavior over time.
> On 5/17/2013 12:34 AM, Bryan Schulz wrote:
>> hi,
>> 
>> on the net, any tips for a student that can't stay on track and goes off to another page on the first link they find instead of exploring the page?
>> Bryan Schulz
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Goldfield" <disciple1211 at verizon.net>
>> To: <wcmerritt at gmail.com>; "List for teachers and trainers of adaptive technology" <trainer-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 7:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Trainer-talk] exploring with pages with JAWS
>> 
>> 
>>> Very well said, Wayne.  I also get frustrated when JAWS does not always go to a specific heading level, even though I know that it's on the page.  I think that it handles this based on the various heading levels which may be on that particular page.  As an example, suppose that I know that there is a group of items at heading level 5.  I think that JAWS won't let me press 5 to get there if there's a heading level with a higher number prior to that section at level 5.  In my opinion, while this may be a deliberate design on Freedom Scientific's part I feel that it should be changed to allow the user to press any number to go to any heading level which may appear on that page.  NVDA actually allows for this and makes for much more headache-free heading navigation.
>>> When I first introduce students to navigating Web pages, I wait for a good while before I even tell them about using tab or shift-tab to move by links.  I introduce it slowly, but I first emphasize the use of standard arrow keys and I point out that reading the page is just like reading a document, getting their ears used to the extra verbeage such as links and heading levels.
>>> 
>>> I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on this topic.
>>> David
>>> On 5/16/2013 4:58 PM, Wayne Merritt wrote:
>>>> Good information here. I know you don't want to bombard the beginner
>>>> with too many things, but here are two things to consider. First,
>>>> using the numbers 1-6 in JAWS to move to a heading of that level
>>>> number doesn't always work. A good example of this is in Gmail, I know
>>>> I can press number 2 to get to the Inbox heading from the top of the
>>>> page. However, when I do, JAWS tells me, "There are no level 2
>>>> headings on this page." I have to use H to move down to the Folders
>>>> heading before I can start pressing 2. However, I use this method a
>>>> lot, especially when opening a message in Gmail and wanting to move to
>>>> the portion of the page that has the message, instead of going through
>>>> all of my headings for labels that have unread messages. My point here
>>>> is that the
>>>> numbers don't always work in each time; that can vary.
>>>> 
>>>> Second, I encourage my students to work as much as possible from the
>>>> webpage itself. This will not only give them more experience on the
>>>> page but will also help them to get more familiar with the layout of
>>>> the web page
>>>> and its content. And yet I still have several that will insist upon
>>>> tabbing between links. If you are looking for a link on a medium sized
>>>> page, this is fine. But if you are on a page like Wikipedia and have
>>>> hundreds of links, there are better ways to accomplish this. Anyway, I
>>>> promote and encourage students to take time in the beginning when they
>>>> first go to a site to explore the page by arrowing down. Long, yes;
>>>> will they have to arrow a lot, yes. However, they will see all of the
>>>> content on the page. Other methods of navigating can be dropped in as
>>>> they are covered.
>>>> 
>>>> In my daily web surfing, I use a combination of methods for navigating
>>>> on web pages, including using the JAWS quick keys (like H for
>>>> headings, t for tables, and so forth); and using the arrows and the
>>>> tab key. I think I get better results by mixing it up like this than
>>>> just sticking with one method.
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Wayne Merritt
>>>> Austin, Texas
>>>> 
>>>> On 5/15/13, Dr. Denise M Robinson <deniserob at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Also be aware that it depends on the focus of the page in IE on if you do
>>>>> the ctrl F and whether you will put up the find of IE or the find of
>>>>> Jaws...if IE, just close the box, alt tab off and come back then do it
>>>>> again and the focus will go to jaws find
>>>>> Denise
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Julie Adkins <jadkins at mabnc.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Oh, I was wondering about that. Since a lot of time can pass between
>>>>>> JAWS
>>>>>> clients for me, I could not remember which way I had typically taught it.
>>>>>> Several months ago I had someone who, when he pressed Control + F, just
>>>>>> got
>>>>>> a Find dialog within Internet Explorer itself, which would go find the
>>>>>> text
>>>>>> visually (with a yellow highlight block), but not actually move the
>>>>>> cursor
>>>>>> there.  So I trained him to use the Insert + Control + F. I thought he
>>>>>> had
>>>>>> Internet Explorer 9, but it must have been 8.  Last night I tried the
>>>>>> regular Control + F on my home computer with JAWS on, and saw that it
>>>>>> worked
>>>>>> fine.  I was feeling really confused.  Thanks for clearing that up.
>>>>>> That's
>>>>>> why I love having these listservs!!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Julie Adkins
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Trainer-talk [mailto:trainer-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> matt diemert
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 7:30 AM
>>>>>> To: List for teachers and trainers of adaptive technology
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Trainer-talk] exploring with pages with JAWS
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>> Great notes.
>>>>>> Two quick observations. First. in a browser, since Jaws 9 or 10, I can't
>>>>>> recall it's been a while since my FS days, pressing control f, is the
>>>>>> same
>>>>>> as pressing control INS F, try it, you'll hear both say jaws find. This
>>>>>> may
>>>>>> be less keystroke intensive on a new keyboard user. Second, if the user
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> followed your first step of moving to the top of a web page with control
>>>>>> Home, it's probably just as easy at this point to press E for the search
>>>>>> field, as pressing control INS home. Just thought I'd mention these as
>>>>>> there's always more than one way to skin a cat.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 5/14/13, Julie Adkins <jadkins at mabnc.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> Attached you will find some "reminder" notes I just typed up for a
>>>>>>> JAWS client.  Just something basic to give a student that he or she
>>>>>>> can refer back to.  You are welcome to use it.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Julie Adkins, MA, CVRT
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Assistive Technology Supervisor
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Certified Vision Rehabilitation Therapist
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Metrolina Association for the Blind
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 704 Louise Avenue
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Charlotte, NC 28204
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 704-887-5121
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> www.mabnc.org
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any
>>>>>>> attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipients(s) and may
>>>>>>> contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized
>>>>>>> review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not
>>>>>>> the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and
>>>>>>> destroy all copies of the original message.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Warm Regards:
>>>>>> Matt Diemert
>>>>>> 330-980-0046
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> g
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> *Dr Denise*
>>>>> 
>>>>> Denise M. Robinson, TVI, Ph.D.
>>>>> CEO, TechVision, LLC
>>>>> Specialist in Technology/Training/Teaching for blind/low vision
>>>>> 423-573-6413
>>>>> 
>>>>> Website with hundreds of informational articles & lessons on PC, Office
>>>>> products, Mac, iPad/iTools and more, all done with
>>>>> keystrokes: www.yourtechvision.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
>>>>> doing it." --Chinese Proverb
>>>>> 
>>>>> Computers are incredibly fast, accurate, and stupid: humans are incredibly
>>>>> slow, inaccurate and brilliant; together they are powerful beyond
>>>>> imagination.
>>>>> --Albert Einstein
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's kind of fun to do the impossible.
>>>>> --Walt Disney
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>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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