[Travelandtourism] Picking Battles

Wed Feb 22 19:28:44 UTC 2012

Peter this is not the situation.
Respectfully
Cheryl Echevarria

Leading the Way in Independent Travel!

Cheryl Echevarria
http://www.echevarriatravel.com
631-456-5394
reservations at echevarriatravel.com

For daily updates read our blog at
http://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com

> From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com
> To: travelandtourism at nfbnet.org
> Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 13:25:42 -0600
> Subject: [Travelandtourism] Picking Battles
> 
> Hello Cheryl and everyone,\
> It would depend on whether one wishes to risk a confrontation with a 
> problematic merchant concerning their entrance with a guide dog. Given my 
> experience with taking several of my dogs in to zoos, livestock shows, and 
> other animal attractions I'd rather take on zoos and animal parks that 
> restrict our access with service animals or deny us entrance with them all 
> together than haggling with a wholesale buying club with this issue but I'm 
> not stopping others from taking them on.
> 
> Peter Donahue
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "cheryl echevarria" <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>
> To: "travelandtourism" <travelandtourism at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] In-Store And Online Shopping
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, Peter, I do not disagree with you on this aspect, but, we were 
> talking about going to the stores with our guide dogs, this is a guide dog 
> issue and travel issue as well.  In any case, if you wanted to post about 
> in-store and online shopping that is a different post all together.
> And I think in that case would not be appropriate for this list, and maybe a 
> general post to the blind talk list.
> But again, I wasn't trying to be rude. I just felt it wasn't at all 
> appropriate for the thread of this issue.
> If I was just going out for dog food, we wouldn't go to Costco.
> 
> Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
> 
> Cheryl Echevarria
> http://www.echevarriatravel.com
> 631-456-5394
> reservations at echevarriatravel.com
> 
> For daily updates read our blog at
> http://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com
> 
> > From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com
> > To: travelandtourism at nfbnet.org
> > Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 12:18:20 -0600
> > Subject: [Travelandtourism] In-Store And Online Shopping
> >
> > Hello Cheryl and everyone,
> >
> >     And put convenience ahead of supposed dependence when necessary. If 
> > you
> > have someone to drive you to a place like Sam's or cosco and drive you 
> > home
> > with your load it works out. However, tell me of someone who lugged 
> > several
> > cases on a public bus or a train? There are times when it's a good idea to
> > get out of the house and do in-store shopping but there are also instances
> > when shopping online has its advantages as in our case. For example why
> > should we waste our time going to the grocery store to pick up dogfood 
> > when
> > we could have it delivered to our doorstep freeing us to make better use 
> > of
> > our time doing other projects such as building the division's Web site? 
> > When
> > and where we shop is a matter we as blind persons must decide for 
> > ourselves
> > just as the sighted do.
> >
> > Peter Donahue
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "cheryl echevarria" <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>
> > To: "travelandtourism" <travelandtourism at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 11:05 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very happy
> > with over at COSTCO on Monday
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > No Offense Peter on this.
> > But that is how we become less independent, we need to be out shopping and
> > being involved.
> > Some people even become hermits so to say, and that people don't want to
> > leave there homes because of the online shopping, yes I do online shopping
> > and basically I am an internet business, I don't have a physical office in
> > my home, or I would have to pay a varence I think that is how it is 
> > spelled,
> > with the town where I live to have a physical business in my home, etc 
> > with
> > certain insurances to cover business in my home.
> > But that being said, I think that was the wrong way to go.
> > Again, I know Peter was joking, and I am not yelling or anything at this.
> >
> > Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
> >
> > Cheryl Echevarria
> > http://www.echevarriatravel.com
> > 631-456-5394
> > reservations at echevarriatravel.com
> >
> > For daily updates read our blog at
> > http://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com
> >
> > > From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com
> > > To: travelandtourism at nfbnet.org
> > > Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 10:30:12 -0600
> > > Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very 
> > > happy
> > > with over at COSTCO on Monday
> > >
> > > Good morning everyone,
> > >
> > >     Praise God for online shopping!
> > >
> > > Peter Donahue
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> > > To: "NFB Travel and Tourism Division List" <travelandtourism at nfbnet.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 7:46 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very 
> > > happy
> > > with over at COSTCO on Monday
> > >
> > >
> > > Cosco is a bit of a sticky situation.  I want to say it was in the early
> > > to mid 90's there was a court case with a service dog handler vs.
> > > Cosco.  It centered around these same issues of
> > > certification/paperwork/proof.  the case was handled quite badly and the
> > > judge ruled that Cosco could ask for documentation. I can't remember all
> > > the details of the case, but it set a very bad precedent.  To me it
> > > looks obvious that the verdict is in direct opposition to the ADA, but
> > > the judge didn't agree.  I'm remembering that the case was appealed with
> > > the same results.  The case did not make it to the Supreme Court.
> > >
> > > I would take a guess this is why Cosco has the service dog policy they
> > > do and why they get away with it.  Not saying it's right.  Certainly if
> > > someone has a solid case and wants to take it back to court that could
> > > be a very good thing because it could overturn the previous ruling.
> > >
> > > Good luck with it,
> > > Julie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2/22/2012 6:54 AM, cheryl echevarria wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I am posting this to not only the NYAGDU (NY State Division of the
> > > > National Association of Guide Dog Users), but also to the Travel and
> > > > Tourism Division), both proud divisions of the National Federation of
> > > > the
> > > > Blind.
> > > > Traveling is also traveling with accessible entrance to all locations,
> > > > with cane, sighted guide, as well as, guide dog, or other forms of
> > > > mobility that one is comfortable with.
> > > > This past Monday, Presidents Day, Nelson, Maxx (my guide  dog) and
> > > > myself,
> > > > did our bi-monthly shopping of Costco, if some of you do not know what
> > > > COSTCO is, it is one of the those membership stores where you buy in
> > > > bulk,
> > > > we don't buy a lot because it is the 2 of us, and I also buy dog food
> > > > there.
> > > > We have been members of Costco for over 12 years.
> > > > When we entered the store after showing our membership card, the lady 
> > > > at
> > > > the door, asked to see my dogs certification paperwork.
> > > > Now for those who are not blind and do not know the ADA laws, first
> > > > there
> > > > is no  paperwork for a guide dog, and certified, just no such thing.
> > > > The
> > > > schools must be licensed just like any other business, in fact, some
> > > > train
> > > > there own guide dogs, so this statement that the lady made, was
> > > > incorrect,
> > > > also the training for the dog makes it a guide dog.
> > > > > From there, I said that I am just going to speak to the store's
> > > > > manager,
> > > > > since I had been in this situation prior, but the manager always
> > > > > apologized for the incorrect way the person talk to me, and also 
> > > > > that
> > > > > the employees didn't know better.
> > > > That day was different, the manager, told me that it was correct that 
> > > > I
> > > > need to show paperwork on my dog that he is a guide dog, now, I am
> > > > standing in front of him with dark glasses that blind people wear, and
> > > > guide dog in harness.
> > > > I stated that there is no such  thing, what makes the dog a guide dog,
> > > > or
> > > > for anyone else that is disabled, is the disability and the training
> > > > that
> > > > the dog gets to be a service animal, he proceeded to tell me that 
> > > > others
> > > > have shown him this paperwork, again, what paperwork. I stated not 
> > > > only
> > > > am
> > > > I a graduate of the Guide Dog Foundation of Smithtown, that was less
> > > > then
> > > > 5 minutes away from this location, but that I am a member of that
> > > > National
> > > > Association of Guide Dog Users, a proud division of the National
> > > > Federation of the Blind, and we are one of the organizations that help
> > > > make and enforce the ADA laws pertaining to this.  He basically almost
> > > > called me a liar, he said that I am not going to continue the
> > > > conversation.
> > > > He did not tell me I had to leave, but I want to the customer service
> > > > desk
> > > > with my husband to get the corporate phone number, I tried to call on 
> > > > my
> > > > cell phone while I was there, but the reception was really bad, and so
> > > > we
> > > > did shop, and then when we got home I made the calls.
> > > > My first was to customer service, the young lady on the phone that her
> > > > immediate supervisor said that was the policy of Costco to ask for the
> > > > paperwork, she gave me his name, I was writing all of this down, so 
> > > > that
> > > > I
> > > > could give to Marion Gwizdala, President of NAGDU, and Margo Downey,
> > > > President of the NY affiliate of NAGDU (NYAGDU).
> > > > I was then given the number to call for the legal department, when I 
> > > > did
> > > > this they said that I couldn't speak to anyone but that I was given 
> > > > the
> > > > name of the Regional Vice President of the Area.  I called him, and he
> > > > was
> > > > not there, so I left him a detailed message.
> > > > Within a half and hour, the General Manager, at the store that I went
> > > > to,
> > > > called me back, and it sounded like he was forced to apologize to me, 
> > > > he
> > > > didn't realize that I left the store, or the fact that I was actually
> > > > blind.
> > > > I informed him, that I never left the store, but went to get the phone
> > > > numbers that I needed, and did shop.  He began to make excuses for
> > > > himself, that he was following training procedures, and that he said,
> > > > that
> > > > a service animal must have a harness on or a blanket, or something
> > > > indicated that they are working dogs. I also corrected him on that
> > > > saying, that is not correct, I can come into this store without a 
> > > > cape,
> > > > harness, etc on the dog, and the only thing you can ask me is that a
> > > > working dog/service, guide dog, and what service does the dog provide.
> > > > He was very patronizing still.
> > > > I didn't hear from his Vice President until after 5pm when he was in 
> > > > his
> > > > car driving home from work.
> > > > The man kept saying, that is should be obvious that someone is blind 
> > > > and
> > > > common sense, but I stated, not always, I do not always wear my dark
> > > > glasses, not all blind people are totally blind.  There are also some
> > > > people who are not blind that use a service animal, children that are
> > > > autistic, diabetic, seizure, deaf, etc.  It is not always a
> > > > characteristic
> > > > of the person, to have something that  identifies them as being
> > > > disabled,
> > > > and you are not allowed to ask the disability either.
> > > > He also said, that he hates enforcing policy, I said it is not 
> > > > costco's
> > > > policy it is the ADA law.  I  was trying to give him our National
> > > > Hotline
> > > > for NAGDU, and if anyone every has questions about Guide Dogs, ADA, 
> > > > etc,
> > > > our Hotline number is 1-888-NAGDU-411 or 1-888-624-3841, that is how I
> > > > found out he was on his car phone on the way home, he told me that he
> > > > couldn't take the number because he was driving home from work.  Gee, 
> > > > I
> > > > was really important to speak to on this. I mentioned that in NY State
> > > > it
> > > > is a civil violation of our law, other states have criminal laws in
> > > > reference to these violations.
> > > > After this, I informed the people who needed to know such as Marion 
> > > > and
> > > > Margo.  Mr. Gwizdala, first contact the Costco in his area, and asked
> > > > there policy, he was told basically the same thing, as myself, he also
> > > > got
> > > > the corporate information, and has been in talks with Costco in 
> > > > Seattle.
> > > > It seems that they are saying that they are a private organization and
> > > > that you need to pay a membership to go there and that they are 
> > > > outside
> > > > the ADA.
> > > > FYI, if that is true, which it is not, then I cannot take my dog to my
> > > > gym, it is a private membership, or go to a restaurant you have to pay
> > > > to
> > > > eat there, or go to a movie or theater.  So that I couldn't go 
> > > > anywhere
> > > > with my dog.
> > > > I would say if you are a guide dog user, or even if you use a service
> > > > animal, and the laws have changed to what kind of animal is considered 
> > > > a
> > > > service dog.
> > > > It cannot be a comfort dog, it cannot be the dog you carry around in
> > > > your
> > > > pocketbook.  It also must be either a dog, or a guide horse, no cats,
> > > > birds, snakes, monkeys, etc any more.  You must have a valid medical
> > > > disability that you can get one.  So many disabilities and illnesses 
> > > > can
> > > > qualify for a service animal now.
> > > > Stayed tuned for more
> > > > Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
> > > >
> > > > Cheryl Echevarria
> > > > http://www.echevarriatravel.com
> > > > 631-456-5394
> > > > reservations at echevarriatravel.com
> > > >
> > > > For daily updates read our blog at
> > > > http://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
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