[Travelandtourism] Picking Battles

Wed Feb 22 19:25:42 UTC 2012

Hello Cheryl and everyone,\
It would depend on whether one wishes to risk a confrontation with a 
problematic merchant concerning their entrance with a guide dog. Given my 
experience with taking several of my dogs in to zoos, livestock shows, and 
other animal attractions I'd rather take on zoos and animal parks that 
restrict our access with service animals or deny us entrance with them all 
together than haggling with a wholesale buying club with this issue but I'm 
not stopping others from taking them on.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "cheryl echevarria" <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>
To: "travelandtourism" <travelandtourism at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] In-Store And Online Shopping

Again, Peter, I do not disagree with you on this aspect, but, we were 
talking about going to the stores with our guide dogs, this is a guide dog 
issue and travel issue as well.  In any case, if you wanted to post about 
in-store and online shopping that is a different post all together.
And I think in that case would not be appropriate for this list, and maybe a 
general post to the blind talk list.
But again, I wasn't trying to be rude. I just felt it wasn't at all 
appropriate for the thread of this issue.
If I was just going out for dog food, we wouldn't go to Costco.

Leading the Way in Independent Travel!

Cheryl Echevarria
http://www.echevarriatravel.com
631-456-5394
reservations at echevarriatravel.com

For daily updates read our blog at
http://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com

> From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com
> To: travelandtourism at nfbnet.org
> Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 12:18:20 -0600
> Subject: [Travelandtourism] In-Store And Online Shopping
>
> Hello Cheryl and everyone,
>
>     And put convenience ahead of supposed dependence when necessary. If 
> you
> have someone to drive you to a place like Sam's or cosco and drive you 
> home
> with your load it works out. However, tell me of someone who lugged 
> several
> cases on a public bus or a train? There are times when it's a good idea to
> get out of the house and do in-store shopping but there are also instances
> when shopping online has its advantages as in our case. For example why
> should we waste our time going to the grocery store to pick up dogfood 
> when
> we could have it delivered to our doorstep freeing us to make better use 
> of
> our time doing other projects such as building the division's Web site? 
> When
> and where we shop is a matter we as blind persons must decide for 
> ourselves
> just as the sighted do.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "cheryl echevarria" <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>
> To: "travelandtourism" <travelandtourism at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 11:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very happy
> with over at COSTCO on Monday
>
>
>
>
> No Offense Peter on this.
> But that is how we become less independent, we need to be out shopping and
> being involved.
> Some people even become hermits so to say, and that people don't want to
> leave there homes because of the online shopping, yes I do online shopping
> and basically I am an internet business, I don't have a physical office in
> my home, or I would have to pay a varence I think that is how it is 
> spelled,
> with the town where I live to have a physical business in my home, etc 
> with
> certain insurances to cover business in my home.
> But that being said, I think that was the wrong way to go.
> Again, I know Peter was joking, and I am not yelling or anything at this.
>
> Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
>
> Cheryl Echevarria
> http://www.echevarriatravel.com
> 631-456-5394
> reservations at echevarriatravel.com
>
> For daily updates read our blog at
> http://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com
>
> > From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com
> > To: travelandtourism at nfbnet.org
> > Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 10:30:12 -0600
> > Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very 
> > happy
> > with over at COSTCO on Monday
> >
> > Good morning everyone,
> >
> >     Praise God for online shopping!
> >
> > Peter Donahue
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> > To: "NFB Travel and Tourism Division List" <travelandtourism at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 7:46 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very 
> > happy
> > with over at COSTCO on Monday
> >
> >
> > Cosco is a bit of a sticky situation.  I want to say it was in the early
> > to mid 90's there was a court case with a service dog handler vs.
> > Cosco.  It centered around these same issues of
> > certification/paperwork/proof.  the case was handled quite badly and the
> > judge ruled that Cosco could ask for documentation. I can't remember all
> > the details of the case, but it set a very bad precedent.  To me it
> > looks obvious that the verdict is in direct opposition to the ADA, but
> > the judge didn't agree.  I'm remembering that the case was appealed with
> > the same results.  The case did not make it to the Supreme Court.
> >
> > I would take a guess this is why Cosco has the service dog policy they
> > do and why they get away with it.  Not saying it's right.  Certainly if
> > someone has a solid case and wants to take it back to court that could
> > be a very good thing because it could overturn the previous ruling.
> >
> > Good luck with it,
> > Julie
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2/22/2012 6:54 AM, cheryl echevarria wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I am posting this to not only the NYAGDU (NY State Division of the
> > > National Association of Guide Dog Users), but also to the Travel and
> > > Tourism Division), both proud divisions of the National Federation of
> > > the
> > > Blind.
> > > Traveling is also traveling with accessible entrance to all locations,
> > > with cane, sighted guide, as well as, guide dog, or other forms of
> > > mobility that one is comfortable with.
> > > This past Monday, Presidents Day, Nelson, Maxx (my guide  dog) and
> > > myself,
> > > did our bi-monthly shopping of Costco, if some of you do not know what
> > > COSTCO is, it is one of the those membership stores where you buy in
> > > bulk,
> > > we don't buy a lot because it is the 2 of us, and I also buy dog food
> > > there.
> > > We have been members of Costco for over 12 years.
> > > When we entered the store after showing our membership card, the lady 
> > > at
> > > the door, asked to see my dogs certification paperwork.
> > > Now for those who are not blind and do not know the ADA laws, first
> > > there
> > > is no  paperwork for a guide dog, and certified, just no such thing.
> > > The
> > > schools must be licensed just like any other business, in fact, some
> > > train
> > > there own guide dogs, so this statement that the lady made, was
> > > incorrect,
> > > also the training for the dog makes it a guide dog.
> > > > From there, I said that I am just going to speak to the store's
> > > > manager,
> > > > since I had been in this situation prior, but the manager always
> > > > apologized for the incorrect way the person talk to me, and also 
> > > > that
> > > > the employees didn't know better.
> > > That day was different, the manager, told me that it was correct that 
> > > I
> > > need to show paperwork on my dog that he is a guide dog, now, I am
> > > standing in front of him with dark glasses that blind people wear, and
> > > guide dog in harness.
> > > I stated that there is no such  thing, what makes the dog a guide dog,
> > > or
> > > for anyone else that is disabled, is the disability and the training
> > > that
> > > the dog gets to be a service animal, he proceeded to tell me that 
> > > others
> > > have shown him this paperwork, again, what paperwork. I stated not 
> > > only
> > > am
> > > I a graduate of the Guide Dog Foundation of Smithtown, that was less
> > > then
> > > 5 minutes away from this location, but that I am a member of that
> > > National
> > > Association of Guide Dog Users, a proud division of the National
> > > Federation of the Blind, and we are one of the organizations that help
> > > make and enforce the ADA laws pertaining to this.  He basically almost
> > > called me a liar, he said that I am not going to continue the
> > > conversation.
> > > He did not tell me I had to leave, but I want to the customer service
> > > desk
> > > with my husband to get the corporate phone number, I tried to call on 
> > > my
> > > cell phone while I was there, but the reception was really bad, and so
> > > we
> > > did shop, and then when we got home I made the calls.
> > > My first was to customer service, the young lady on the phone that her
> > > immediate supervisor said that was the policy of Costco to ask for the
> > > paperwork, she gave me his name, I was writing all of this down, so 
> > > that
> > > I
> > > could give to Marion Gwizdala, President of NAGDU, and Margo Downey,
> > > President of the NY affiliate of NAGDU (NYAGDU).
> > > I was then given the number to call for the legal department, when I 
> > > did
> > > this they said that I couldn't speak to anyone but that I was given 
> > > the
> > > name of the Regional Vice President of the Area.  I called him, and he
> > > was
> > > not there, so I left him a detailed message.
> > > Within a half and hour, the General Manager, at the store that I went
> > > to,
> > > called me back, and it sounded like he was forced to apologize to me, 
> > > he
> > > didn't realize that I left the store, or the fact that I was actually
> > > blind.
> > > I informed him, that I never left the store, but went to get the phone
> > > numbers that I needed, and did shop.  He began to make excuses for
> > > himself, that he was following training procedures, and that he said,
> > > that
> > > a service animal must have a harness on or a blanket, or something
> > > indicated that they are working dogs. I also corrected him on that
> > > saying, that is not correct, I can come into this store without a 
> > > cape,
> > > harness, etc on the dog, and the only thing you can ask me is that a
> > > working dog/service, guide dog, and what service does the dog provide.
> > > He was very patronizing still.
> > > I didn't hear from his Vice President until after 5pm when he was in 
> > > his
> > > car driving home from work.
> > > The man kept saying, that is should be obvious that someone is blind 
> > > and
> > > common sense, but I stated, not always, I do not always wear my dark
> > > glasses, not all blind people are totally blind.  There are also some
> > > people who are not blind that use a service animal, children that are
> > > autistic, diabetic, seizure, deaf, etc.  It is not always a
> > > characteristic
> > > of the person, to have something that  identifies them as being
> > > disabled,
> > > and you are not allowed to ask the disability either.
> > > He also said, that he hates enforcing policy, I said it is not 
> > > costco's
> > > policy it is the ADA law.  I  was trying to give him our National
> > > Hotline
> > > for NAGDU, and if anyone every has questions about Guide Dogs, ADA, 
> > > etc,
> > > our Hotline number is 1-888-NAGDU-411 or 1-888-624-3841, that is how I
> > > found out he was on his car phone on the way home, he told me that he
> > > couldn't take the number because he was driving home from work.  Gee, 
> > > I
> > > was really important to speak to on this. I mentioned that in NY State
> > > it
> > > is a civil violation of our law, other states have criminal laws in
> > > reference to these violations.
> > > After this, I informed the people who needed to know such as Marion 
> > > and
> > > Margo.  Mr. Gwizdala, first contact the Costco in his area, and asked
> > > there policy, he was told basically the same thing, as myself, he also
> > > got
> > > the corporate information, and has been in talks with Costco in 
> > > Seattle.
> > > It seems that they are saying that they are a private organization and
> > > that you need to pay a membership to go there and that they are 
> > > outside
> > > the ADA.
> > > FYI, if that is true, which it is not, then I cannot take my dog to my
> > > gym, it is a private membership, or go to a restaurant you have to pay
> > > to
> > > eat there, or go to a movie or theater.  So that I couldn't go 
> > > anywhere
> > > with my dog.
> > > I would say if you are a guide dog user, or even if you use a service
> > > animal, and the laws have changed to what kind of animal is considered 
> > > a
> > > service dog.
> > > It cannot be a comfort dog, it cannot be the dog you carry around in
> > > your
> > > pocketbook.  It also must be either a dog, or a guide horse, no cats,
> > > birds, snakes, monkeys, etc any more.  You must have a valid medical
> > > disability that you can get one.  So many disabilities and illnesses 
> > > can
> > > qualify for a service animal now.
> > > Stayed tuned for more
> > > Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
> > >
> > > Cheryl Echevarria
> > > http://www.echevarriatravel.com
> > > 631-456-5394
> > > reservations at echevarriatravel.com
> > >
> > > For daily updates read our blog at
> > > http://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
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