[Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very happy with over at COSTCO on Monday
Julie J.
julielj at neb.rr.com
Wed Feb 22 22:33:49 UTC 2012
Cindy,
I look at it like Cheryl's previous message about the software company
that wants proof of the guy's blindness so he can use the older
accessible version. He doesn't need to prove he's blind anymore than I
need to prove my dog is a guide. It's very readily apparent.
Businesses can ask if the person is disabled and what the dog has been
trained to do. The behavior of the dog speaks louder than any printed
words ever will. If the dog is well behaved and the person has said it
is a service dog, then that is enough. The business can ask the person
to remove the dog if it is unruly.
The ADA is a federal law and does supersede state laws if the state law
is more restrictive. I realize that is a bit of a complicated tangle.
If a state law says you have to have certification to enter a business,
then the ADA over rides the state law and no certification is
necessary. However if the state law says that certification is required
in order to be able to press criminal charges of interference or
harassment, then the certification would be necessary only if the
individual wanted to press charges. Although in this second example I'm
not sure how the court would determine what would legally be accepted as
certification since there is no government regulation of service dog
certification.
I don't believe that certification solves any issues. Dogs can act a
mess regardless of the presence or absence of a piece of paper. Maybe
they are having a bad day, maybe the handler hasn't kept up on their
training or maybe they were never trained fully in the first place. The
better measure of a service dog is the behavior of the dog at that
time. If the dog is barking like a maniac, peeing all over the place or
has an infestation of fleas, then the business should be asking the
person to remove the dog.
I owner train my guides. I have only been asked once to provide
documentation. I calmly explained the relevant laws to the employee and
then gave her a business card size copy of some ADA info and a phone
number for follow up questions. I bought the cards from SitStay.com.
They don't have any specific information about me or my particular dog.
The employee was very satisfied with this card, even after I explained
it is not an ID and anyone can purchase them from the internet.
because it is illegal was the short answer. This was the longer
version. I hope it makes more sense to you.
Julie
On 2/22/2012 1:14 PM, Cindy Handel wrote:
> Thanks Margo and Julie for your non-answers. Yes, I know it's
> illegal, because the ADA apparently says so. But, it seems that it's
> a bad portion of the law. If I, as a non guide dog user, wanted to
> have a pet dog and take him/her with me on a cruise or on vacation,
> then it seems all I need to do is think of a reason that I should have
> this dog with me and apparently I can't be challenged or even
> questioned about it. It leaves the area wide open for abuse and
> people who can actually prove that the dog is a guide dog are getting
> all upset because someone dares to ask for some proof.
>
> Then, does this mean that the ADA supersedes the previous guide dog
> laws which have been in place for decades?
>
> Cindy
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Margo and Arrow
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:21 PM
> To: NFB Travel and Tourism Division List
> Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very
> happy with over at COSTCO on Monday
>
> Whether it's objectionable or not the ADA says one cannot ask for such
> proof.
>
> Margo and Arrow
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
> To: "NFB Travel and Tourism Division List" <travelandtourism at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very happy
> with over at COSTCO on Monday
>
>
>> I'm just curious...I don't have a guide dog, but my husband does.
>> I've heard, for a long time, discussion about people objecting to
>> proving that their dog is a guide dog. Why is this request so
>> objectionable? I thought that was why the schools issue the
>> identification cards.
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Julie J.
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 8:46 AM
>> To: NFB Travel and Tourism Division List
>> Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very
>> happy with over at COSTCO on Monday
>>
>> Cosco is a bit of a sticky situation. I want to say it was in the early
>> to mid 90's there was a court case with a service dog handler vs.
>> Cosco. It centered around these same issues of
>> certification/paperwork/proof. the case was handled quite badly and the
>> judge ruled that Cosco could ask for documentation. I can't remember all
>> the details of the case, but it set a very bad precedent. To me it
>> looks obvious that the verdict is in direct opposition to the ADA, but
>> the judge didn't agree. I'm remembering that the case was appealed with
>> the same results. The case did not make it to the Supreme Court.
>>
>> I would take a guess this is why Cosco has the service dog policy they
>> do and why they get away with it. Not saying it's right. Certainly if
>> someone has a solid case and wants to take it back to court that could
>> be a very good thing because it could overturn the previous ruling.
>>
>> Good luck with it,
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/22/2012 6:54 AM, cheryl echevarria wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am posting this to not only the NYAGDU (NY State Division of the
>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users), but also to the Travel and
>>> Tourism Division), both proud divisions of the National Federation
>>> of the Blind.
>>> Traveling is also traveling with accessible entrance to all
>>> locations, with cane, sighted guide, as well as, guide dog, or other
>>> forms of mobility that one is comfortable with.
>>> This past Monday, Presidents Day, Nelson, Maxx (my guide dog) and
>>> myself, did our bi-monthly shopping of Costco, if some of you do not
>>> know what COSTCO is, it is one of the those membership stores where
>>> you buy in bulk, we don't buy a lot because it is the 2 of us, and I
>>> also buy dog food there.
>>> We have been members of Costco for over 12 years.
>>> When we entered the store after showing our membership card, the
>>> lady at the door, asked to see my dogs certification paperwork.
>>> Now for those who are not blind and do not know the ADA laws, first
>>> there is no paperwork for a guide dog, and certified, just no such
>>> thing. The schools must be licensed just like any other business,
>>> in fact, some train there own guide dogs, so this statement that the
>>> lady made, was incorrect, also the training for the dog makes it a
>>> guide dog.
>>> > From there, I said that I am just going to speak to the store's >
>>> manager, since I had been in this situation prior, but the manager >
>>> always apologized for the incorrect way the person talk to me, and
>>> also > that the employees didn't know better.
>>> That day was different, the manager, told me that it was correct
>>> that I need to show paperwork on my dog that he is a guide dog, now,
>>> I am standing in front of him with dark glasses that blind people
>>> wear, and guide dog in harness.
>>> I stated that there is no such thing, what makes the dog a guide
>>> dog, or for anyone else that is disabled, is the disability and the
>>> training that the dog gets to be a service animal, he proceeded to
>>> tell me that others have shown him this paperwork, again, what
>>> paperwork. I stated not only am I a graduate of the Guide Dog
>>> Foundation of Smithtown, that was less then 5 minutes away from this
>>> location, but that I am a member of that National Association of
>>> Guide Dog Users, a proud division of the National Federation of the
>>> Blind, and we are one of the organizations that help make and
>>> enforce the ADA laws pertaining to this. He basically almost called
>>> me a liar, he said that I am not going to continue the conversation.
>>> He did not tell me I had to leave, but I want to the customer
>>> service desk with my husband to get the corporate phone number, I
>>> tried to call on my cell phone while I was there, but the reception
>>> was really bad, and so we did shop, and then when we got home I made
>>> the calls.
>>> My first was to customer service, the young lady on the phone that
>>> her immediate supervisor said that was the policy of Costco to ask
>>> for the paperwork, she gave me his name, I was writing all of this
>>> down, so that I could give to Marion Gwizdala, President of NAGDU,
>>> and Margo Downey, President of the NY affiliate of NAGDU (NYAGDU).
>>> I was then given the number to call for the legal department, when I
>>> did this they said that I couldn't speak to anyone but that I was
>>> given the name of the Regional Vice President of the Area. I called
>>> him, and he was not there, so I left him a detailed message.
>>> Within a half and hour, the General Manager, at the store that I
>>> went to, called me back, and it sounded like he was forced to
>>> apologize to me, he didn't realize that I left the store, or the
>>> fact that I was actually blind.
>>> I informed him, that I never left the store, but went to get the
>>> phone numbers that I needed, and did shop. He began to make excuses
>>> for himself, that he was following training procedures, and that he
>>> said, that a service animal must have a harness on or a blanket, or
>>> something indicated that they are working dogs. I also corrected him
>>> on that saying, that is not correct, I can come into this store
>>> without a cape, harness, etc on the dog, and the only thing you can
>>> ask me is that a working dog/service, guide dog, and what service
>>> does the dog provide.
>>> He was very patronizing still.
>>> I didn't hear from his Vice President until after 5pm when he was in
>>> his car driving home from work.
>>> The man kept saying, that is should be obvious that someone is blind
>>> and common sense, but I stated, not always, I do not always wear my
>>> dark glasses, not all blind people are totally blind. There are
>>> also some people who are not blind that use a service animal,
>>> children that are autistic, diabetic, seizure, deaf, etc. It is not
>>> always a characteristic of the person, to have something that
>>> identifies them as being disabled, and you are not allowed to ask
>>> the disability either.
>>> He also said, that he hates enforcing policy, I said it is not
>>> costco's policy it is the ADA law. I was trying to give him our
>>> National Hotline for NAGDU, and if anyone every has questions about
>>> Guide Dogs, ADA, etc, our Hotline number is 1-888-NAGDU-411 or
>>> 1-888-624-3841, that is how I found out he was on his car phone on
>>> the way home, he told me that he couldn't take the number because he
>>> was driving home from work. Gee, I was really important to speak to
>>> on this. I mentioned that in NY State it is a civil violation of our
>>> law, other states have criminal laws in reference to these violations.
>>> After this, I informed the people who needed to know such as Marion
>>> and Margo. Mr. Gwizdala, first contact the Costco in his area, and
>>> asked there policy, he was told basically the same thing, as myself,
>>> he also got the corporate information, and has been in talks with
>>> Costco in Seattle. It seems that they are saying that they are a
>>> private organization and that you need to pay a membership to go
>>> there and that they are outside the ADA.
>>> FYI, if that is true, which it is not, then I cannot take my dog to
>>> my gym, it is a private membership, or go to a restaurant you have
>>> to pay to eat there, or go to a movie or theater. So that I
>>> couldn't go anywhere with my dog.
>>> I would say if you are a guide dog user, or even if you use a
>>> service animal, and the laws have changed to what kind of animal is
>>> considered a service dog.
>>> It cannot be a comfort dog, it cannot be the dog you carry around in
>>> your pocketbook. It also must be either a dog, or a guide horse, no
>>> cats, birds, snakes, monkeys, etc any more. You must have a valid
>>> medical disability that you can get one. So many disabilities and
>>> illnesses can qualify for a service animal now.
>>> Stayed tuned for more
>>> Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
>>>
>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>> http://www.echevarriatravel.com
>>> 631-456-5394
>>> reservations at echevarriatravel.com
>>>
>>> For daily updates read our blog at
>>> http://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com
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>>
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