[Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very happy with over at COSTCO on Monday
Margo and Arrow
margo.downey at verizon.net
Wed Feb 22 20:06:25 UTC 2012
the ADA trumps all state laws and all previous guide dog laws.
I know I gave you a non-answer as you call it.
what od owner-trainers do? they don't have an I D or other papers, except
health licenses and such.
I don't know the history of why that was put into the ADA and that's why I
don't have an exact answer for you. (smile).
I'd like to know the history, though, if someone wishes to share.
margo and Arrow
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
To: "NFB Travel and Tourism Division List" <travelandtourism at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very happy
with over at COSTCO on Monday
> Thanks Margo and Julie for your non-answers. Yes, I know it's illegal,
> because the ADA apparently says so. But, it seems that it's a bad portion
> of the law. If I, as a non guide dog user, wanted to have a pet dog and
> take him/her with me on a cruise or on vacation, then it seems all I need
> to do is think of a reason that I should have this dog with me and
> apparently I can't be challenged or even questioned about it. It leaves
> the area wide open for abuse and people who can actually prove that the
> dog is a guide dog are getting all upset because someone dares to ask for
> some proof.
>
> Then, does this mean that the ADA supersedes the previous guide dog laws
> which have been in place for decades?
>
> Cindy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Margo and Arrow
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:21 PM
> To: NFB Travel and Tourism Division List
> Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very happy
> with over at COSTCO on Monday
>
> Whether it's objectionable or not the ADA says one cannot ask for such
> proof.
>
> Margo and Arrow
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
> To: "NFB Travel and Tourism Division List" <travelandtourism at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very happy
> with over at COSTCO on Monday
>
>
>> I'm just curious...I don't have a guide dog, but my husband does. I've
>> heard, for a long time, discussion about people objecting to proving that
>> their dog is a guide dog. Why is this request so objectionable? I
>> thought that was why the schools issue the identification cards.
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Julie J.
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 8:46 AM
>> To: NFB Travel and Tourism Division List
>> Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very happy
>> with over at COSTCO on Monday
>>
>> Cosco is a bit of a sticky situation. I want to say it was in the early
>> to mid 90's there was a court case with a service dog handler vs.
>> Cosco. It centered around these same issues of
>> certification/paperwork/proof. the case was handled quite badly and the
>> judge ruled that Cosco could ask for documentation. I can't remember all
>> the details of the case, but it set a very bad precedent. To me it
>> looks obvious that the verdict is in direct opposition to the ADA, but
>> the judge didn't agree. I'm remembering that the case was appealed with
>> the same results. The case did not make it to the Supreme Court.
>>
>> I would take a guess this is why Cosco has the service dog policy they
>> do and why they get away with it. Not saying it's right. Certainly if
>> someone has a solid case and wants to take it back to court that could
>> be a very good thing because it could overturn the previous ruling.
>>
>> Good luck with it,
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/22/2012 6:54 AM, cheryl echevarria wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am posting this to not only the NYAGDU (NY State Division of the
>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users), but also to the Travel and
>>> Tourism Division), both proud divisions of the National Federation of
>>> the Blind.
>>> Traveling is also traveling with accessible entrance to all locations,
>>> with cane, sighted guide, as well as, guide dog, or other forms of
>>> mobility that one is comfortable with.
>>> This past Monday, Presidents Day, Nelson, Maxx (my guide dog) and
>>> myself, did our bi-monthly shopping of Costco, if some of you do not
>>> know what COSTCO is, it is one of the those membership stores where you
>>> buy in bulk, we don't buy a lot because it is the 2 of us, and I also
>>> buy dog food there.
>>> We have been members of Costco for over 12 years.
>>> When we entered the store after showing our membership card, the lady at
>>> the door, asked to see my dogs certification paperwork.
>>> Now for those who are not blind and do not know the ADA laws, first
>>> there is no paperwork for a guide dog, and certified, just no such
>>> thing. The schools must be licensed just like any other business, in
>>> fact, some train there own guide dogs, so this statement that the lady
>>> made, was incorrect, also the training for the dog makes it a guide dog.
>>> > From there, I said that I am just going to speak to the store's
>>> > manager, since I had been in this situation prior, but the manager
>>> > always apologized for the incorrect way the person talk to me, and
>>> > also that the employees didn't know better.
>>> That day was different, the manager, told me that it was correct that I
>>> need to show paperwork on my dog that he is a guide dog, now, I am
>>> standing in front of him with dark glasses that blind people wear, and
>>> guide dog in harness.
>>> I stated that there is no such thing, what makes the dog a guide dog,
>>> or for anyone else that is disabled, is the disability and the training
>>> that the dog gets to be a service animal, he proceeded to tell me that
>>> others have shown him this paperwork, again, what paperwork. I stated
>>> not only am I a graduate of the Guide Dog Foundation of Smithtown, that
>>> was less then 5 minutes away from this location, but that I am a member
>>> of that National Association of Guide Dog Users, a proud division of the
>>> National Federation of the Blind, and we are one of the organizations
>>> that help make and enforce the ADA laws pertaining to this. He
>>> basically almost called me a liar, he said that I am not going to
>>> continue the conversation.
>>> He did not tell me I had to leave, but I want to the customer service
>>> desk with my husband to get the corporate phone number, I tried to call
>>> on my cell phone while I was there, but the reception was really bad,
>>> and so we did shop, and then when we got home I made the calls.
>>> My first was to customer service, the young lady on the phone that her
>>> immediate supervisor said that was the policy of Costco to ask for the
>>> paperwork, she gave me his name, I was writing all of this down, so that
>>> I could give to Marion Gwizdala, President of NAGDU, and Margo Downey,
>>> President of the NY affiliate of NAGDU (NYAGDU).
>>> I was then given the number to call for the legal department, when I did
>>> this they said that I couldn't speak to anyone but that I was given the
>>> name of the Regional Vice President of the Area. I called him, and he
>>> was not there, so I left him a detailed message.
>>> Within a half and hour, the General Manager, at the store that I went
>>> to, called me back, and it sounded like he was forced to apologize to
>>> me, he didn't realize that I left the store, or the fact that I was
>>> actually blind.
>>> I informed him, that I never left the store, but went to get the phone
>>> numbers that I needed, and did shop. He began to make excuses for
>>> himself, that he was following training procedures, and that he said,
>>> that a service animal must have a harness on or a blanket, or something
>>> indicated that they are working dogs. I also corrected him on that
>>> saying, that is not correct, I can come into this store without a cape,
>>> harness, etc on the dog, and the only thing you can ask me is that a
>>> working dog/service, guide dog, and what service does the dog provide.
>>> He was very patronizing still.
>>> I didn't hear from his Vice President until after 5pm when he was in his
>>> car driving home from work.
>>> The man kept saying, that is should be obvious that someone is blind and
>>> common sense, but I stated, not always, I do not always wear my dark
>>> glasses, not all blind people are totally blind. There are also some
>>> people who are not blind that use a service animal, children that are
>>> autistic, diabetic, seizure, deaf, etc. It is not always a
>>> characteristic of the person, to have something that identifies them as
>>> being disabled, and you are not allowed to ask the disability either.
>>> He also said, that he hates enforcing policy, I said it is not costco's
>>> policy it is the ADA law. I was trying to give him our National
>>> Hotline for NAGDU, and if anyone every has questions about Guide Dogs,
>>> ADA, etc, our Hotline number is 1-888-NAGDU-411 or 1-888-624-3841, that
>>> is how I found out he was on his car phone on the way home, he told me
>>> that he couldn't take the number because he was driving home from work.
>>> Gee, I was really important to speak to on this. I mentioned that in NY
>>> State it is a civil violation of our law, other states have criminal
>>> laws in reference to these violations.
>>> After this, I informed the people who needed to know such as Marion and
>>> Margo. Mr. Gwizdala, first contact the Costco in his area, and asked
>>> there policy, he was told basically the same thing, as myself, he also
>>> got the corporate information, and has been in talks with Costco in
>>> Seattle. It seems that they are saying that they are a private
>>> organization and that you need to pay a membership to go there and that
>>> they are outside the ADA.
>>> FYI, if that is true, which it is not, then I cannot take my dog to my
>>> gym, it is a private membership, or go to a restaurant you have to pay
>>> to eat there, or go to a movie or theater. So that I couldn't go
>>> anywhere with my dog.
>>> I would say if you are a guide dog user, or even if you use a service
>>> animal, and the laws have changed to what kind of animal is considered a
>>> service dog.
>>> It cannot be a comfort dog, it cannot be the dog you carry around in
>>> your pocketbook. It also must be either a dog, or a guide horse, no
>>> cats, birds, snakes, monkeys, etc any more. You must have a valid
>>> medical disability that you can get one. So many disabilities and
>>> illnesses can qualify for a service animal now.
>>> Stayed tuned for more
>>> Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
>>>
>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>> http://www.echevarriatravel.com
>>> 631-456-5394
>>> reservations at echevarriatravel.com
>>>
>>> For daily updates read our blog at
>>> http://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com
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>>
>>
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