[blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?

Sun Dec 7 13:49:33 UTC 2008

Hi Mike,
Can you explain why you feel that the analogy of closed-captioning with 
described video is invalid & as you say "a false analogy"?
Eric

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 21:49
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?

> Carie:
>
> I realize that we could talk this thing to death. Nevertheless, I feel
> that there is a philosophical point to be made so I'll take one more
> stab at it in the interest of furthering understanding of NFB's
> thinking.
>
> You are correct in stating that in part, our opposition to legally
> mandating described video was a matter of "first things first". After
> all, crawlers imparting emergency information are far more important
> than descriptions of scenery or action. Even ACB has tacitly
> acknowledged this in its petition to FCC to require that emergency
> information be voiced.
>
> And you are also correct in saying that describing video is a skill --
> one that can be improved with practice. However, you undercut your case
> in my estimation below when you say that teachers or others described
> "nonessential" stuff such as costumes and colors rather than action. But
> who is to say what is essential and what is not? Is this not a decision
> as to what is artistically important? And does this not imply that
> described video is an art? I know Jim Stovall of "Narrative Television"
> would agree with you and me that descriptions of costumes and scenery is
> largely superfluous. I remember he once said that he started Narrative
> Television in part because he thought the NCAM descriptions were to
> fluffy/frilly with nonessential elements. Yet I know plenty of blind
> persons who say that descriptions of scenery, costumes, colors, faces
> and ambiance is *Precisely* what they want. I think it's stuff and
> nonsense but they have a right to their opinion and it is every bit as
> valid as is mine and clearly indicates that describing video is always a
> judgment call rather than a cut-and-dried exercise of the
> closed-captioning sort (incidentally ACB makes much of the analogy of
> closed-captioning with described video -- a false analogy IMO).
> Moreover, I've listened to movies with described video and had sighted
> persons watching with me say: "*That's* not what happened! They got it
> all wrong!".
>
> Sounds like an art more than a skill to me. And thus it is not easily
> susceptible of being a legal requirement!
>
> If we are to aproach describing video rationally, we'd better have a
> clear idea of what we're asking and whether what we want can be
> accommodated within the framework of the constitution.
>
> Mike Freeman
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
>
>
> Dear Mike, and Eric,
>
> I disagree that description is an art--I would say it is a skill, and a
> trainable one. It is my understanding that a major part of the NFB's
> perceived resistance to audio description was that as usual first things
> did
> not come first. We wanted (and still do) description (reading) of the
> running text, especially for emergency broadcast information as one
> important example. They are finally including that seriously in the
> discussion/proposals. It is kind of like the money--yes we would like it
> more accessible, but we really want jobs, and we want the money done in
> a
> way that is reasonable and makes sense and benefits the blind without
> putting an undue burden on society or giving some false notion of what
> the
> blind need.
>
> That said, when Jordan was in sixth grade he came home with the
> following
> first term grade slip for social studies:
> A,A,A,A,D,A,A,D,A,A,A,C-,A,Excused,A,A,A,A,A,A,D.
>
> All the D's, the C- and the excused were classroom videos with
> accompanying
> assignments. He had been given no access. It was my first clear
> indication
> of how often video got used in the higher grades (use has increased both
> yearly and in type of class all the way through) and how often it was
> graded
> or a key component to curriculum.
>
> I became concerned about access for kids and educational videos. It was
> a
> huge problem to have a classmate or even teacher try and describe: as
> has
> been mentioned they often describe things that don't matter like hair
> color
> or talk over dialogue...I found a company based in Minnesota that does
> audio
> description, CaptionMax. I began to talk with them. The owner and chief
> scientist I found to be much like Ray Kurzweil. He valued the people who
> would be using his product, and included deaf, blind and deaf-blind
> people
> in his employment and in advisory positions. He understood that things
> had
> to be designed from real people's experience and perspective from the
> ground
> up. One also has to have a master's in English to do the actual
> description
> or captioning at his company. He has taken all feedback seriously, and
> listened to my concerns too about control for the blind individual.
>
> When Jordan came to high school age he was asked to join their consumer
> advisory board and we have worked closely with them ever since. They
> only do
> educational video at this point. However, increasingly Movies considered
> entertainment are used in the classroom: Schindler's List, Romeo and
> Juliet,
> The Great Debaters are recent examples of films that were actually part
> of
> Jordan's curriculum, and had written assignments with the viewing of the
> film. Including testing on the analysis.
>
> Hopefully, text like you speak of Mike, on a Braille display, could
> become
> available and would be valuable for the deaf/blind population as well. I
> can
> tell you these things are being thought of. In the post I sent with the
> links to the CaptionMax videos, there are many great choices, lots of
> science ones too, and they make feedback a requirement (as it is part of
> the
> grant) but it is a way to get a lot more consumer feedback too, which
> they
> definitely want.
>
> We have a long way to go, but it is being done, I feel it is important
> for
> educational access in many instances and I feel it is important to get
> our
> voice in there. I agree with the positions we have taken to get first
> things
> first.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:27 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
> Eric:
>
> If description is an art, as you say, how can one legitimately require
> it? After all, if one requires something in law, one has to have a valid
> standard by which to measure whether or not an entity has complied with
> the law.
>
> That was and is NFB's problem with *mandating* described video; we
> certainly aren't opposed to having it made available. But if it's an
> art, mandating it could present some First Amendment problems.
> (Incidentally, are symphony orchestras in violation of the law because
> they cannot present their output to the deaf?)
>
> In a slightly diferent vein, although I agree with you that well-done
> described video is fairly unobtrusive ("Saving Private Ryan" was quite
> well-done), it's still hard not to cover up sound effects -- sounds
> which, both in life and in movies, are often vital to comprehension by
> the blind.
>
> What *I'd* like to see is descriptions be made available as braille
> booklets that one could read along with the movies rather than as audio
> descriptions. That way, one could encourage braille reading and one
> would avoid completely the hassle of trying to figure out how to fit
> descriptions into DVD menus which, after all, aren't really standard --
> at least not yet. And the sound wouldn't be interfered with. I might
> even grudgingly be in favor of such booklets being available in large
> print. (grin)
>
> Mike Freeman
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
>
> Carrie-> You have a (another) natural talent! Beautiful description! I
> imagined my boys on that Harley!
>
> On the more serious side, being able to audiodescribe what is on the
> screen
> really is an art.
> I have seen/heard very good & very poor descriptions.
> Most of the professionally done audiodescriptions for movies have made
> it
> more enjoyable & completely tangible for my kids & when done well the
> narration naturally blends into the movie & is not really all that
> obvious.
> Most of us get pretty good at describing things over time, but I have to
> admit it is nice to kick back & enjoy a movie & then just add in my own
> commentaries like I would with anyone, sighted or not.
> I know this gets debated.
> For many movies, the added description is not absolutely critical to
> enjoying & getting the gist of the movie, but the added description does
> enhance the experience if done well.
> It really would not be all that hard to add the audiodescription track
> option to DVDs & I would be in favor of just requiring it.
> I think this videoclip illustrates this very nicely.
> Best wishes,
> Eric V
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:33
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
>
>>I was thinking as I watched it that without audio description you would
>>miss
>> much, well everything as there is no dialougue. A man with dark
>> glasses
>> and
>> a cane walks into a obvious motorcycle harley Davidson store with a
>> woman,
>> they go down some stairs he holds her arm but also uses his cane and a
>> store
>> sales clerk approaches. The woman motions to indicate it is not me
>> here to
>> look but him, the store clerk begins to show the man a bike (harley
>> motor
>> cycle), he looks at several bikes, walks around using his cane, and
>> uses
>> his
>> cane to tap one like someone might stereotypically kick a car tire at
>> a
>> car
>> lot when buying. Then he finds one he likes and he rather dramatically
>> hands
>> his cane to the store clerk who takes it and the man climbs on the
>> bike,
>> he
>> looks very happy about trying it like he found the one he wanted. Then
>> the
>> next thing you see is it appears a close up of this man driving the
>> bike
>> down the road. Then the camera pans out and he is on the bike on a
>> trailer
>> being pulled by a car being driven by the woman who gives some visual
>> indication expression of okay he is happy now so I am happy kind of
>> thing.
>> Then it shows the back of he man wearing a harley leather jacket with
>> the
>> words "born to be blind" with two canes crossed like an X and then
>> there
>> is
>> the words: Lotto millionaires are not like ordinary millionaires.
>>
>> Like I said it is not perfect...but it is not bad unless I am missing
>> something.
>>
>>
>>
>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of trising at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:52 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>> I was thinking the same thing. I did not get it.
>>
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