[blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?

Mike Freeman k7uij at panix.com
Sun Dec 7 17:00:19 UTC 2008


Eric:

In closed-captioning, one doesn't have to render descriptions of 
costumes, lighting, scenery, facial expressions, etc. etc. etc. One 
simply renders the dialog into print (I doubt the deaf community has 
placed much pressure on movie-makers to describe voices). In contrast, 
what blind and visually impaired persons want or are at least given in 
audio descriptions are those elements that are a matter of judgment 
rather than of actual text. One can, for example, say in a court of law 
that one either has or has not rendered the dialog into closed captions; 
one would be hard-put to make such a definitive statement regarding 
described video (and I use that terminology because WGBH and its 
National Center for Accessible Media -- NCAM -- has "descriptive video" 
trademarked). Hence, one would be hard-put to demonstrate that one has 
fulfilled any hypothetical legal requirements for described video and it 
is unfair to mandate some system or standard that one cannot easily 
prove has either been followed or violated. That's the problem with the 
accessible technology mandates in several states: the technology is 
changing so fast that the exact definition of "accessibility" as legal 
eagles would like to define it is a moving target! Parenthetically, 
"accessibility", or, rather, the lack of it, is rather like the late 
Justice Potter Stuart's remark about pornography: I can't define it but 
I know it when I see it. But that's a topic for another day.

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 5:49 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?


Hi Mike,
Can you explain why you feel that the analogy of closed-captioning with
described video is invalid & as you say "a false analogy"?
Eric

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 21:49
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?


> Carie:
>
> I realize that we could talk this thing to death. Nevertheless, I feel
> that there is a philosophical point to be made so I'll take one more
> stab at it in the interest of furthering understanding of NFB's
> thinking.
>
> You are correct in stating that in part, our opposition to legally
> mandating described video was a matter of "first things first". After
> all, crawlers imparting emergency information are far more important
> than descriptions of scenery or action. Even ACB has tacitly
> acknowledged this in its petition to FCC to require that emergency
> information be voiced.
>
> And you are also correct in saying that describing video is a skill --
> one that can be improved with practice. However, you undercut your 
> case
> in my estimation below when you say that teachers or others described
> "nonessential" stuff such as costumes and colors rather than action. 
> But
> who is to say what is essential and what is not? Is this not a 
> decision
> as to what is artistically important? And does this not imply that
> described video is an art? I know Jim Stovall of "Narrative 
> Television"
> would agree with you and me that descriptions of costumes and scenery 
> is
> largely superfluous. I remember he once said that he started Narrative
> Television in part because he thought the NCAM descriptions were to
> fluffy/frilly with nonessential elements. Yet I know plenty of blind
> persons who say that descriptions of scenery, costumes, colors, faces
> and ambiance is *Precisely* what they want. I think it's stuff and
> nonsense but they have a right to their opinion and it is every bit as
> valid as is mine and clearly indicates that describing video is always 
> a
> judgment call rather than a cut-and-dried exercise of the
> closed-captioning sort (incidentally ACB makes much of the analogy of
> closed-captioning with described video -- a false analogy IMO).
> Moreover, I've listened to movies with described video and had sighted
> persons watching with me say: "*That's* not what happened! They got it
> all wrong!".
>
> Sounds like an art more than a skill to me. And thus it is not easily
> susceptible of being a legal requirement!
>
> If we are to aproach describing video rationally, we'd better have a
> clear idea of what we're asking and whether what we want can be
> accommodated within the framework of the constitution.
>
> Mike Freeman
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
>
>
> Dear Mike, and Eric,
>
> I disagree that description is an art--I would say it is a skill, and 
> a
> trainable one. It is my understanding that a major part of the NFB's
> perceived resistance to audio description was that as usual first 
> things
> did
> not come first. We wanted (and still do) description (reading) of the
> running text, especially for emergency broadcast information as one
> important example. They are finally including that seriously in the
> discussion/proposals. It is kind of like the money--yes we would like 
> it
> more accessible, but we really want jobs, and we want the money done 
> in
> a
> way that is reasonable and makes sense and benefits the blind without
> putting an undue burden on society or giving some false notion of what
> the
> blind need.
>
> That said, when Jordan was in sixth grade he came home with the
> following
> first term grade slip for social studies:
> A,A,A,A,D,A,A,D,A,A,A,C-,A,Excused,A,A,A,A,A,A,D.
>
> All the D's, the C- and the excused were classroom videos with
> accompanying
> assignments. He had been given no access. It was my first clear
> indication
> of how often video got used in the higher grades (use has increased 
> both
> yearly and in type of class all the way through) and how often it was
> graded
> or a key component to curriculum.
>
> I became concerned about access for kids and educational videos. It 
> was
> a
> huge problem to have a classmate or even teacher try and describe: as
> has
> been mentioned they often describe things that don't matter like hair
> color
> or talk over dialogue...I found a company based in Minnesota that does
> audio
> description, CaptionMax. I began to talk with them. The owner and 
> chief
> scientist I found to be much like Ray Kurzweil. He valued the people 
> who
> would be using his product, and included deaf, blind and deaf-blind
> people
> in his employment and in advisory positions. He understood that things
> had
> to be designed from real people's experience and perspective from the
> ground
> up. One also has to have a master's in English to do the actual
> description
> or captioning at his company. He has taken all feedback seriously, and
> listened to my concerns too about control for the blind individual.
>
> When Jordan came to high school age he was asked to join their 
> consumer
> advisory board and we have worked closely with them ever since. They
> only do
> educational video at this point. However, increasingly Movies 
> considered
> entertainment are used in the classroom: Schindler's List, Romeo and
> Juliet,
> The Great Debaters are recent examples of films that were actually 
> part
> of
> Jordan's curriculum, and had written assignments with the viewing of 
> the
> film. Including testing on the analysis.
>
> Hopefully, text like you speak of Mike, on a Braille display, could
> become
> available and would be valuable for the deaf/blind population as well. 
> I
> can
> tell you these things are being thought of. In the post I sent with 
> the
> links to the CaptionMax videos, there are many great choices, lots of
> science ones too, and they make feedback a requirement (as it is part 
> of
> the
> grant) but it is a way to get a lot more consumer feedback too, which
> they
> definitely want.
>
> We have a long way to go, but it is being done, I feel it is important
> for
> educational access in many instances and I feel it is important to get
> our
> voice in there. I agree with the positions we have taken to get first
> things
> first.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Carrie Gilmer, President
> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:27 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
> Eric:
>
> If description is an art, as you say, how can one legitimately require
> it? After all, if one requires something in law, one has to have a 
> valid
> standard by which to measure whether or not an entity has complied 
> with
> the law.
>
> That was and is NFB's problem with *mandating* described video; we
> certainly aren't opposed to having it made available. But if it's an
> art, mandating it could present some First Amendment problems.
> (Incidentally, are symphony orchestras in violation of the law because
> they cannot present their output to the deaf?)
>
> In a slightly diferent vein, although I agree with you that well-done
> described video is fairly unobtrusive ("Saving Private Ryan" was quite
> well-done), it's still hard not to cover up sound effects -- sounds
> which, both in life and in movies, are often vital to comprehension by
> the blind.
>
> What *I'd* like to see is descriptions be made available as braille
> booklets that one could read along with the movies rather than as 
> audio
> descriptions. That way, one could encourage braille reading and one
> would avoid completely the hassle of trying to figure out how to fit
> descriptions into DVD menus which, after all, aren't really 
> standard --
> at least not yet. And the sound wouldn't be interfered with. I might
> even grudgingly be in favor of such booklets being available in large
> print. (grin)
>
> Mike Freeman
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
>
> Carrie-> You have a (another) natural talent! Beautiful description! I
> imagined my boys on that Harley!
>
> On the more serious side, being able to audiodescribe what is on the
> screen
> really is an art.
> I have seen/heard very good & very poor descriptions.
> Most of the professionally done audiodescriptions for movies have made
> it
> more enjoyable & completely tangible for my kids & when done well the
> narration naturally blends into the movie & is not really all that
> obvious.
> Most of us get pretty good at describing things over time, but I have 
> to
> admit it is nice to kick back & enjoy a movie & then just add in my 
> own
> commentaries like I would with anyone, sighted or not.
> I know this gets debated.
> For many movies, the added description is not absolutely critical to
> enjoying & getting the gist of the movie, but the added description 
> does
> enhance the experience if done well.
> It really would not be all that hard to add the audiodescription track
> option to DVDs & I would be in favor of just requiring it.
> I think this videoclip illustrates this very nicely.
> Best wishes,
> Eric V
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:33
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>
>
>>I was thinking as I watched it that without audio description you 
>>would
>>miss
>> much, well everything as there is no dialougue. A man with dark
>> glasses
>> and
>> a cane walks into a obvious motorcycle harley Davidson store with a
>> woman,
>> they go down some stairs he holds her arm but also uses his cane and 
>> a
>> store
>> sales clerk approaches. The woman motions to indicate it is not me
>> here to
>> look but him, the store clerk begins to show the man a bike (harley
>> motor
>> cycle), he looks at several bikes, walks around using his cane, and
>> uses
>> his
>> cane to tap one like someone might stereotypically kick a car tire at
>> a
>> car
>> lot when buying. Then he finds one he likes and he rather 
>> dramatically
>> hands
>> his cane to the store clerk who takes it and the man climbs on the
>> bike,
>> he
>> looks very happy about trying it like he found the one he wanted. 
>> Then
>> the
>> next thing you see is it appears a close up of this man driving the
>> bike
>> down the road. Then the camera pans out and he is on the bike on a
>> trailer
>> being pulled by a car being driven by the woman who gives some visual
>> indication expression of okay he is happy now so I am happy kind of
>> thing.
>> Then it shows the back of he man wearing a harley leather jacket with
>> the
>> words "born to be blind" with two canes crossed like an X and then
>> there
>> is
>> the words: Lotto millionaires are not like ordinary millionaires.
>>
>> Like I said it is not perfect...but it is not bad unless I am missing
>> something.
>>
>>
>>
>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>> [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of trising at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:52 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>> I was thinking the same thing. I did not get it.
>>
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