[blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?

Sun Dec 7 17:53:56 UTC 2008

I think it's like he said, it all depends on what the person likes.  When I 
was in high chool learning about hiring readers I was told I wanted to hire 
ones who didn't use much inflection in their voice.  I don't know why.  I 
never did.  I like readers who use inflection and make even the most boring 
book about teaching Math to elementary students interesting.
That's the problem with art.  We all like different flavors.
Barbara

--------------------------------------------------
From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:49 AM
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?

> Hi Mike,
> Can you explain why you feel that the analogy of closed-captioning with 
> described video is invalid & as you say "a false analogy"?
> Eric
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 21:49
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
>
>
>> Carie:
>>
>> I realize that we could talk this thing to death. Nevertheless, I feel
>> that there is a philosophical point to be made so I'll take one more
>> stab at it in the interest of furthering understanding of NFB's
>> thinking.
>>
>> You are correct in stating that in part, our opposition to legally
>> mandating described video was a matter of "first things first". After
>> all, crawlers imparting emergency information are far more important
>> than descriptions of scenery or action. Even ACB has tacitly
>> acknowledged this in its petition to FCC to require that emergency
>> information be voiced.
>>
>> And you are also correct in saying that describing video is a skill --
>> one that can be improved with practice. However, you undercut your case
>> in my estimation below when you say that teachers or others described
>> "nonessential" stuff such as costumes and colors rather than action. But
>> who is to say what is essential and what is not? Is this not a decision
>> as to what is artistically important? And does this not imply that
>> described video is an art? I know Jim Stovall of "Narrative Television"
>> would agree with you and me that descriptions of costumes and scenery is
>> largely superfluous. I remember he once said that he started Narrative
>> Television in part because he thought the NCAM descriptions were to
>> fluffy/frilly with nonessential elements. Yet I know plenty of blind
>> persons who say that descriptions of scenery, costumes, colors, faces
>> and ambiance is *Precisely* what they want. I think it's stuff and
>> nonsense but they have a right to their opinion and it is every bit as
>> valid as is mine and clearly indicates that describing video is always a
>> judgment call rather than a cut-and-dried exercise of the
>> closed-captioning sort (incidentally ACB makes much of the analogy of
>> closed-captioning with described video -- a false analogy IMO).
>> Moreover, I've listened to movies with described video and had sighted
>> persons watching with me say: "*That's* not what happened! They got it
>> all wrong!".
>>
>> Sounds like an art more than a skill to me. And thus it is not easily
>> susceptible of being a legal requirement!
>>
>> If we are to aproach describing video rationally, we'd better have a
>> clear idea of what we're asking and whether what we want can be
>> accommodated within the framework of the constitution.
>>
>> Mike Freeman
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:01 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Audio Description; art or skill?
>>
>>
>> Dear Mike, and Eric,
>>
>> I disagree that description is an art--I would say it is a skill, and a
>> trainable one. It is my understanding that a major part of the NFB's
>> perceived resistance to audio description was that as usual first things
>> did
>> not come first. We wanted (and still do) description (reading) of the
>> running text, especially for emergency broadcast information as one
>> important example. They are finally including that seriously in the
>> discussion/proposals. It is kind of like the money--yes we would like it
>> more accessible, but we really want jobs, and we want the money done in
>> a
>> way that is reasonable and makes sense and benefits the blind without
>> putting an undue burden on society or giving some false notion of what
>> the
>> blind need.
>>
>> That said, when Jordan was in sixth grade he came home with the
>> following
>> first term grade slip for social studies:
>> A,A,A,A,D,A,A,D,A,A,A,C-,A,Excused,A,A,A,A,A,A,D.
>>
>> All the D's, the C- and the excused were classroom videos with
>> accompanying
>> assignments. He had been given no access. It was my first clear
>> indication
>> of how often video got used in the higher grades (use has increased both
>> yearly and in type of class all the way through) and how often it was
>> graded
>> or a key component to curriculum.
>>
>> I became concerned about access for kids and educational videos. It was
>> a
>> huge problem to have a classmate or even teacher try and describe: as
>> has
>> been mentioned they often describe things that don't matter like hair
>> color
>> or talk over dialogue...I found a company based in Minnesota that does
>> audio
>> description, CaptionMax. I began to talk with them. The owner and chief
>> scientist I found to be much like Ray Kurzweil. He valued the people who
>> would be using his product, and included deaf, blind and deaf-blind
>> people
>> in his employment and in advisory positions. He understood that things
>> had
>> to be designed from real people's experience and perspective from the
>> ground
>> up. One also has to have a master's in English to do the actual
>> description
>> or captioning at his company. He has taken all feedback seriously, and
>> listened to my concerns too about control for the blind individual.
>>
>> When Jordan came to high school age he was asked to join their consumer
>> advisory board and we have worked closely with them ever since. They
>> only do
>> educational video at this point. However, increasingly Movies considered
>> entertainment are used in the classroom: Schindler's List, Romeo and
>> Juliet,
>> The Great Debaters are recent examples of films that were actually part
>> of
>> Jordan's curriculum, and had written assignments with the viewing of the
>> film. Including testing on the analysis.
>>
>> Hopefully, text like you speak of Mike, on a Braille display, could
>> become
>> available and would be valuable for the deaf/blind population as well. I
>> can
>> tell you these things are being thought of. In the post I sent with the
>> links to the CaptionMax videos, there are many great choices, lots of
>> science ones too, and they make feedback a requirement (as it is part of
>> the
>> grant) but it is a way to get a lot more consumer feedback too, which
>> they
>> definitely want.
>>
>> We have a long way to go, but it is being done, I feel it is important
>> for
>> educational access in many instances and I feel it is important to get
>> our
>> voice in there. I agree with the positions we have taken to get first
>> things
>> first.
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:27 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>> Eric:
>>
>> If description is an art, as you say, how can one legitimately require
>> it? After all, if one requires something in law, one has to have a valid
>> standard by which to measure whether or not an entity has complied with
>> the law.
>>
>> That was and is NFB's problem with *mandating* described video; we
>> certainly aren't opposed to having it made available. But if it's an
>> art, mandating it could present some First Amendment problems.
>> (Incidentally, are symphony orchestras in violation of the law because
>> they cannot present their output to the deaf?)
>>
>> In a slightly diferent vein, although I agree with you that well-done
>> described video is fairly unobtrusive ("Saving Private Ryan" was quite
>> well-done), it's still hard not to cover up sound effects -- sounds
>> which, both in life and in movies, are often vital to comprehension by
>> the blind.
>>
>> What *I'd* like to see is descriptions be made available as braille
>> booklets that one could read along with the movies rather than as audio
>> descriptions. That way, one could encourage braille reading and one
>> would avoid completely the hassle of trying to figure out how to fit
>> descriptions into DVD menus which, after all, aren't really standard --
>> at least not yet. And the sound wouldn't be interfered with. I might
>> even grudgingly be in favor of such booklets being available in large
>> print. (grin)
>>
>> Mike Freeman
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "DrV" <icdx at earthlink.net>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 5:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>>
>> Carrie-> You have a (another) natural talent! Beautiful description! I
>> imagined my boys on that Harley!
>>
>> On the more serious side, being able to audiodescribe what is on the
>> screen
>> really is an art.
>> I have seen/heard very good & very poor descriptions.
>> Most of the professionally done audiodescriptions for movies have made
>> it
>> more enjoyable & completely tangible for my kids & when done well the
>> narration naturally blends into the movie & is not really all that
>> obvious.
>> Most of us get pretty good at describing things over time, but I have to
>> admit it is nice to kick back & enjoy a movie & then just add in my own
>> commentaries like I would with anyone, sighted or not.
>> I know this gets debated.
>> For many movies, the added description is not absolutely critical to
>> enjoying & getting the gist of the movie, but the added description does
>> enhance the experience if done well.
>> It really would not be all that hard to add the audiodescription track
>> option to DVDs & I would be in favor of just requiring it.
>> I think this videoclip illustrates this very nicely.
>> Best wishes,
>> Eric V
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:33
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>
>>
>>>I was thinking as I watched it that without audio description you would
>>>miss
>>> much, well everything as there is no dialougue. A man with dark
>>> glasses
>>> and
>>> a cane walks into a obvious motorcycle harley Davidson store with a
>>> woman,
>>> they go down some stairs he holds her arm but also uses his cane and a
>>> store
>>> sales clerk approaches. The woman motions to indicate it is not me
>>> here to
>>> look but him, the store clerk begins to show the man a bike (harley
>>> motor
>>> cycle), he looks at several bikes, walks around using his cane, and
>>> uses
>>> his
>>> cane to tap one like someone might stereotypically kick a car tire at
>>> a
>>> car
>>> lot when buying. Then he finds one he likes and he rather dramatically
>>> hands
>>> his cane to the store clerk who takes it and the man climbs on the
>>> bike,
>>> he
>>> looks very happy about trying it like he found the one he wanted. Then
>>> the
>>> next thing you see is it appears a close up of this man driving the
>>> bike
>>> down the road. Then the camera pans out and he is on the bike on a
>>> trailer
>>> being pulled by a car being driven by the woman who gives some visual
>>> indication expression of okay he is happy now so I am happy kind of
>>> thing.
>>> Then it shows the back of he man wearing a harley leather jacket with
>>> the
>>> words "born to be blind" with two canes crossed like an X and then
>>> there
>>> is
>>> the words: Lotto millionaires are not like ordinary millionaires.
>>>
>>> Like I said it is not perfect...but it is not bad unless I am missing
>>> something.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Carrie Gilmer, President
>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590
>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of trising at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:52 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Fwd: Once a rider, always a rider
>>>
>>> I was thinking the same thing. I did not get it.
>>>
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