[Mn-abs] Freedom for the Blind

Fri Jan 7 12:52:54 UTC 2011

that's sort of what I was thinking myself.  While training would 
be useful, I just don't know that it's necessary.  I will 
probably no more once I am in college and am able to practice 
more thoroughly.  As I was saying in another e-mail, my goal is 
independence, part/cularly in travel.  I want to know, for 
example, how I can learn a new environment without needing to 
spend a moth, say, with an orientation and mobility instructor on 
a campus.

> ----- Original Message -----
>From: Jordan Richardson <lilrichie411 at gmail.com
>To: Minnesota Association of Blind Students List 
<mn-abs at nfbnet.org
>Date sent: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 22:00:48 -0600 (CST)
>Subject: Re: [Mn-abs] Freedom for the Blind

>Kelby,

>It's great that you were raised in the mainstream and have a 
large skill
>set.  You are also very intelligent and, you say yourself, that
>self-advocacy is one of your strong suits.  I believe that, given 
these
>circumstances, you may very well not need a trainning center.  
What you need
>is to simply use those skills in the real world, and college is a 
great
>opportunity to do this.  I, personally, believe that a program at 
a
>trainning center is mostly for those who haven't had some of the 
experiences
>you and I, for example have had growing up.  If what you are 
looking to do
>is pollish your skills, what you need is to put those skills to 
use at home,
>at college, and generally at life.  That is not to say that 
trainning is not
>an option, because some people really need it, but you have to 
ask yourself,
>"do I need 'rehabilitation'?"  If you truly look back and say "I 
was
>'habilitated' as a child," you may not necesarily need a 
trainning program.
>All in all, it is a personal choice that you have to make 
yourself, however,
>that is not to say you can't ask for advice.

>Just my two cents,
>Jordan
>mabs president

>On 6 January 2011 21:32, Kelby Carlson 
<kelbycarlson at usfamily.net> wrote:

>> That's good to know.  I'm already applying to colleges and 
auditioning for
>> music scholarships, so I'm not sure I'll attend a training 
center.  I simply
>> don't know when I thd have the time, and I'm not convinced I 
have the need.
>>  (I'm not saying I'm all that special, just that I was raised 
very
>> mainstream in a normal family and have a big skill-set.)

>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com
>>> To: "Minnesota Association of Blind Students List"

>> <mn-abs at nfbnet.org

>>> Date sent: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 21:13:02 -0600 (CST)
>>> Subject: Re: [Mn-abs] Freedom for the Blind

>> Kelby,

>> If you got a cane when you were one year old, you definitely

>> benefited from the work we did in the 1970's and 1980's

>>> to get canes into the hands of younger kids.

>> Perhaps others can answer this question better than I, but I

>> would say that most blind pdople spend some time in a

>>> training center after high school.  Some of the time would be

>> used to brush up and solidify the skills you already have,

>>> and if you already have good skills in some areas, more time can

>> be spent on areas where more work would be

>>> helpful.  This is the time in your life when you have the most

>> flexibility to do something like this.  I don't know your

>>> background but others here know you better and might be able to

>> give you a more personalized answer.

>> Best regards,

>> Steve Jacobson

>> On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:23:44 -0600 (CST), Kelby Carlson wrote:

>>  Steve,

>>  Just to clarify.  I received a cane when I was only one year 
old,
>>>> and have been using one all of my life.  Using the cane itself 
is
>>>> very natural.  I simply need to become more accustomed to 
walking
>>>> by myself, which I have done but would like to do more.

>>  I really think I'm getting your position on pushing for change.
>>>> Working in groups myself, I know how essential working in that
>>>> kind of a frame of mind is.

>>  Here's a question I'd like to pose to the list, though I don't
>>>> know if the answers will change my mind.  It's been suggested to
>>>> me that I should attend a training center for a several month
>>>> period, but I'm really not sure that's necessary at this point.
>>>> Yes, there are areas in my life that need to be more 
independent.
>>>> I suspect that will happen when I begin college, as I am
>>>> naturally an advocate for myself and usually just require a 
nudge
>>>> if that.  I've been trained in mobility and technology and am
>>>> proficient.  My daily living skills could perhaps be imprved, 
but
>>>> I believe the same could be said of most high school students.
>>>> What do you guys think?

>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com
>>>>> To: "Minnesota Association of Blind Students List"

>>>> <mn-abs at nfbnet.org

>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:37:52 -0600 (CST)
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Mn-abs] Freedom for the Blind

>>  Keldy,

>>  While I think that we have learned to try to explain our

>>>> positions more rather than just lay them out, I don't think that
>>>> we have ever been as inflexible as

>>>>> some made us out to be.  Often, I have heard it explained that

>>>> blind people come to the Federation and are then all taught to
>>>> jump to the beat of a single

>>>>> drum.  What I don't think some have understood is that most of 
us

>>>> have become a part of the NFB because we found something there
>>>> that reinforced what

>>>>> we already thought.  After joining, I certainly learned things

>>>> that changed my mind on some issues, but I also worked within 
the
>>>> organization to change other

>>>>> minds as well.  I used a folding cane for a good while into my

>>>> membership in the NFB, and there were those who told me I should
>>>> use a straight cane.  At

>>>>> that point, their approach didn't work for me because partly 
they

>>>> never explained why, and partly because nobody was going to tell
>>>> me what to do even

>>>>> though I was a committed member.  <smile>  It took standing in

>>>> the middle of Hennepin with that little piece of pipe to change
>>>> my mind.  Some have

>>>>> believed that we never debate.  They have not been at some of 
our

>>>> conventions or read some of our e-mail lists.  However, we try
>>>> hard to pull together

>>>>> once a decision is made.  I will support an issue in terms of

>>>> working for the NFB even if I voted against it knowing that 
means
>>>> others who may not support

>>>>> an issue of mine will do the same when the vote goes my way.

>>>> Some see that as inflexibility.  I think, though, that you will
>>>> find that each of us has taken a

>>>>> different path to get to where we are now, and that our reasons

>>>> for being here include getting encouragement ourselves, having a
>>>> place to go with our

>>>>> questions, and to gry to make life better for those blind people

>>>> who come after us.

>>  I did not know that "sighted guide" is now being taught to be

>>>> used in conjunction with the cane.  When I learned it, one was
>>>> specifically told to remain a

>>>>> step or so behind the person whose arm one had to give oneself

>>>> warning that a step up or down was coming.  One would feel the
>>>> elbow rise or fall giving

>>>>> one a little time to react.  I am glad to see that has 
apparently

>>>> changed, and who knows, we may have affected that on some level.
>>>> During my lifetime, I

>>>>> can remember when we were considered to be crazy to think that

>>>> the cane should be given to elementary students.  Some even felt
>>>> that middleschool or

>>>>> junior was too soon for the cane.  Stil, it has become pretty

>>>> mainstream to introduce kids to canes when they are young, now.
>>>> Some issues such as getting

>>>>> canes to kids we advocated for a long time and we felt it was

>>>> important enough to push.  Some could have seen that as
>>>> inflexible, but it was the only way to

>>>>> get thinking to change.

>>  You asked about walking less using sighted guide.  What I have

>>>> found over time is that I am more aware of my surroundings when 
I
>>>> am not walking sighted

>>>>> guide.  If someone is showing me around a college campus, for

>>>> example, I will retain a lot more if I am walking with the 
person
>>>> but walking independently.

>>>>> That may not be true for everyone, but it is for me.  Using a

>>>> cane and refining those skills requires some instruction as you
>>>> have already had, but practice is

>>>>> what will make using a cane second nature for you  The more you

>>>> use it, the more natural it will all feel.  There are going to 
be
>>>> times when it is simply more

>>>>> practical to walk sighted guide with someone, but what I always

>>>> wanted to shoot for was knowing that I was choosing to walk with
>>>> someone rather than

>>>>> feeling I couldn't do it any other way.  In my case, I had to

>>>> force myself to walk alone more, especially in the beginning, so
>>>> that I could build my confidence

>>>>> as a traveler and have the use of a cane feel natural.  It 
didn't

>>>> mean that I never took an arm, but it was something I tried to
>>>> keep in the forefront of my mind.

>>>>> If I found that it was a pattern to walk with someone when I 
went

>>>> to a certain place, I would try to find a reason to do it alone
>>>> sometime or to at least walk

>>>>> separately so that I would know I could do it.

>>  In short, I think that the picture sometimes painted of NFB

>>>> members has been wrong, but there is also no doubt that we have
>>>> worked hard to change some

>>>>> things and change isn't always easy for some to accept.  I hope

>>>> you keep asking questions here.  It is good for all of us.

>>  Best regards,

>>  Steve Jacobson

>>  On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:04:29 -0600 (CST), Kelby Carlson wrote:

>>   Steve,

>>   Thank you so much for your thoughtful, well-considered and
>>>>>> articulate response to my questions.  I'll be candid here.  I've
>>>>>> been, for a long while, somewhat innoculated against the NFB
>>>>>> because of what some perceive to be their faults.  (One of which
>>>>>> is lack of compromise and inflexibility.) It is obvious from
>>>>>> talking to people on this list and from beginning to read NFB
>>>>>> literature, that this is most definitely not the case.  My
>>>>>> mobility training has been very good.  Humorously enough, when I
>>>>>> was trained to use sighted guide as a child I have always been
>>>>>> trained to use my cane while taking someone's arm.  I did not
>>>>>> even realize, until you said something, that blind people would
>>>>>> use sighted guide without the use of their cane.  However, I 
have
>>>>>> begun to believe that I must decrease my use of sighted guide.  
I
>>>>>> want to be as independent a traveler as I can, and I believe
>>>>>> learning to follow independently is an important skill.  I
>>>>>> attended the Circle of Life Science Camp in 2005, and gained
>>>>>> knowledge of doing this.  Do you think beginning to practice 
this
>>>>>> more would be a good idea?

>>   I actually decided to request a white cane this morning, and 
I'm
>>>>>> very excited to begin experimenting with it.  I also applied for
>>>>>> a mentor on NFB link so I easily ask questions like this and
>>>>>> start to network.  It's rather amazing how empowering taking
>>>>>> these simple steps can feel.

>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com
>>>>>>> To: "Minnesota Association of Blind Students List"

>>>>>> <mn-abs at nfbnet.org

>>>>>>> Date sent: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:41:14 -0600 (CST)
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Mn-abs] Freedom for the Blind

>>   Keldy,

>>   To some degree, whether you use a folding cane or straight 
cane,

>>>>>> and even the length you use, is a personal preference.  If you
>>>>>> have already given some

>>>>>>> thought, as you indicate, as to whether using a folding cane

>>>>>> hides your blindness, I think you are off to a good start.

>>   I remember clearly the day I decided I was going to no longer 
use

>>>>>> a folding cane as my main cane.  It was winter, and I was
>>>>>> crossing Hennepin Avenue at

>>>>>>> Seventh Street in downtown Minneapolis.  I even remember I was 
on

>>>>>> the south side of Seventh walking west.  About half way across
>>>>>> Hennepin, my cane

>>>>>>> suddenly became noticeably lighter.  A half second later, I 
heard

>>>>>> the clattering and rolling of small pipes on the surface of
>>>>>> Hennepin.  It took a second for me

>>>>>>> to put the two observations together that my folding cane had

>>>>>> broken, and what I was hearing were the sections of my folding
>>>>>> cane hitting the street and

>>>>>>> rolling away from me.  There I was, standing in the middle of

>>>>>> Hennepin Avenue during rush hour with a 12-inch piece of pipe in
>>>>>> my hand.  Needless to say, I

>>>>>>> did get across the street, and some others assisted me in

>>>>>> tracking down the sections of my cane that I hadn't found 
myself.
>>>>>> I managed to temporarily get my

>>>>>>> cane to stay together until I got back to my college dorm.

>>   Even with this experience, though, I have used a folding cane 
on

>>>>>> several occasions since.  Even the telescoping canes, which 
would
>>>>>> not have likely

>>>>>>> broken as did the one I described above, are much more likely to

>>>>>> be broken when people trip over them because the section nearest
>>>>>> the ground is thinner.

>>>>>>> This has happened to me on a number of occasions.  Still, I do

>>>>>> keep a telescoping cane as a backup when I travel.

>>   Dave Andrews has described how to get a cane into and out of a

>>>>>> car, and he has mentioned placing it between the seat and the
>>>>>> window on an airplane.

>>>>>>> The fact is that the airlines probably would prefer it if we

>>>>>> would all use folding canes, but the regulations do permit canes
>>>>>> to be placed between the seat and

>>>>>>> the window if it can be made to lay next to the body of the 
plane

>>>>>> without sticking up.  There is a bit of a trick to doing this,
>>>>>> too, but one masters it fairly

>>>>>>> quickly.  I find if I get my cane situated right away that the

>>>>>> airline very rarely asks me about it.  One compromise I make is
>>>>>> that if I can't get a window seat, I

>>>>>>> will still place my cane along the window but will use a folding

>>>>>> cane during the flight so I don't have to disturb the passenger
>>>>>> sitting by the window.  The

>>>>>>> airlines have to live by regulations, too, so one should not 
feel

>>>>>> apologetic about using a straight cane as long as one knows what
>>>>>> to do with it.  What airlines

>>>>>>> do not understand is that the time a blind person is on a plane

>>>>>> when traveling independently is generally a small part of our
>>>>>> total travel experience.  Traveling

>>>>>>> to the airport, through security and to the gate and then doing

>>>>>> the same thing at the other end requires that we have a
>>>>>> comfortable and reliable way to

>>>>>>> travel.

>>   The other reason I like to have a backup cane when I travel is

>>>>>> that there have been occasions when my straight cane has been
>>>>>> dammaged by elevator

>>>>>>> doors and such.  There are somethings that no cane will survive.

>>   While talking about traveling, I'd like to make a comment 
about

>>>>>> traveling with other people.  You mentioned in another note that
>>>>>> you are traveling with your

>>>>>>> mother, for example.  This can be another area where each of us

>>>>>> has to seek our own solutions.  I have traveled with blind
>>>>>> persons who always walk by

>>>>>>> themselves, who can follow independently and have no problem 
with

>>>>>> that at all.  Particularly in an airport, one often finds
>>>>>> themselves in the position where

>>>>>>> they have the cane in one hand and their luggage in the other.

>>>>>> Still, I personally find it somewhat difficult to travel and 
talk
>>>>>> to someone else at the same

>>>>>>> time.  For the record, I can usually walk and chew gum.  <smile

>>>>>> I will often take the arm of the person I am traveling with, 
even
>>>>>> if they are as blind as I am,

>>>>>>> simply because it is easier for me to carry on a conversation

>>>>>> without having to think about where they are.  However, when I
>>>>>> take the arm of another

>>>>>>> person, I do not follow the "Sighted guide" process of walking a

>>>>>> step behind them.  Rather, I continue using my cane taking
>>>>>> responsibility for my own

>>>>>>> protection, regardless of whether the other person is blind or

>>>>>> sighted.  If I am walking with someone and I trip on a curb, it
>>>>>> should be my fault and not theirs.

>>>>>>> Particularly with parents who tend to feel responsible for their

>>>>>> kids, and I say this not just as a blind person but also as a
>>>>>> parent, using a cane while walking

>>>>>>> with a parent can be a good compromise.  I have also followed

>>>>>> others in an airport before getting rid of my bag by placing my
>>>>>> cane on the bag of the person

>>>>>>> walking in front of me.  While this does not give me as much

>>>>>> information about what is in front of me, generally following
>>>>>> another person with a bag

>>>>>>> guarantees that my path is clear.  This can be helpful when an

>>>>>> area is carpeted, reducing ones chance of hearing the other
>>>>>> person walk.  Of course, if you

>>>>>>> are the person in the lead, this is not a concern at all, and

>>>>>> often that will be the case.

>>   As I have gotten older and my hearing less keen, I have 
gradually

>>>>>> used longer canes to give me more warning of objects in front of
>>>>>> me.  I resisted doing this

>>>>>>> for many years because of the inconvenience of knowing what to 
do

>>>>>> with the cane when it is not in use.  Mostly, I have found that
>>>>>> it just isn't the problem

>>>>>>> that I thought it would be.  A responsible blind person will try

>>>>>> to be aware of whether one's cane is sticking out in an aisle at
>>>>>> a restaurant for example.  We all

>>>>>>> make the occasional mistake along those lines, but I don't think

>>>>>> that my use of a straight cane gives me license to inconvenience
>>>>>> or endanger someone

>>>>>>> else.  With a little care, this doesn't have to happen.  There

>>>>>> may still be times when you may find a folding cane to be 
useful.
>>>>>> For example, some folding

>>>>>>> bleachers such as you find in a gym can make dealing with a

>>>>>> straight cane more of a challenge.  However, I cannot honestly
>>>>>> remember the last time I really

>>>>>>> felt that I should have used a folding cane.  The times when I

>>>>>> really want to fold one up just don't happen very often, and as
>>>>>> you can see, I've been stung

>>>>>>> by using a folding cane just often enough to not want to take 
the

>>>>>> chance.

>>   This is really great that you have brought this up on the 
list.

>>>>>> While I have a strong belief that my choices are right for me, 
my
>>>>>> hope here is only that you take

>>>>>>> my experiences into account as you chart your course.  I believe

>>>>>> our ability to travel independently as blind people is one of 
the
>>>>>> most important skills in our

>>>>>>> success, and having a reliable way to do it is very important,

>>>>>> whatever that is.  I view the occasional inconvenience of 
dealing
>>>>>> with a straight cane as being

>>>>>>> less of a problem than what many people deal with who have

>>>>>> contact lenses, for example.  You learn to deal with the
>>>>>> occasional inconvenience in order to

>>>>>>> have a reliable tool to use to travel.

>>   Best regards,

>>   Steve Jacobson

>>          On Wed, 05 Jan 2011 17:56:12 -0600 (CST), Kelby Carlson

>>>>>> wrote:

>>    I was wondering if anyone else on this list has read Freedom 
for
>>>>>>>> the Blind by James Omvig.  I am reading it now, and find much of
>>>>>>>> what it says very good; he articulates many things I have
>>>>>>>> believed my entire life and values my parents raised me with.

>>    I'm almost to the section on the long white cane, and I have
>>>>>>>> wondered about this for some time.  I understand the emotional
>>>>>>>> power of using a long cane and the statement it makes, but it
>>>>>>>> seems less than necessary from a pragmatic standpoint.  I prefer
>>>>>>>> to have a cane that is able to fold not because I want to hide 
my
>>>>>>>> blindness, but simply for convenience.  I'm rather tall, so
>>>>>>>> having a long cane that can't fold would make it very difficult
>>>>>>>> to travel in cars, at least I'm assuming so.  (I can't imagine
>>>>>>>> the fits airlines could have over this.) Does anyone have
>>>>>>>> experience with this? I'm trying to explore options right now.  
I
>>>>>>>> want to get more involved with the larger blind community and 
I'm
>>>>>>>> fast approaching college.  Any discussion on this would be
>>>>>>>> awesome.

>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Mn-abs mailing list
>>>>>>>> Mn-abs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mn-abs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info

>>>>>>> for Mn-abs:

>>>>>>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/mn-abs_nfbnet.org/steve.jac

>>>>>>> obson%40visi.com

>>   _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Mn-abs mailing list
>>>>>>> Mn-abs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mn-abs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info

>>>>>> for Mn-abs:

>>>>>>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/mn-abs_nfbnet.org/kelbycarl

>>>>>> son%40usfamily.net

>>   _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Mn-abs mailing list
>>>>>> Mn-abs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mn-abs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info

>>>>> for Mn-abs:

>>>>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/mn-abs_nfbnet.org/steve.jac

>>>>> obson%40visi.com

>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>> Mn-abs mailing list
>>>>> Mn-abs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mn-abs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info

>>>> for Mn-abs:

>>>>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/mn-abs_nfbnet.org/kelbycarl

>>>> son%40usfamily.net

>>  _______________________________________________
>>>> Mn-abs mailing list
>>>> Mn-abs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mn-abs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info

>>> for Mn-abs:

>>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/mn-abs_nfbnet.org/steve.jac

>>> obson%40visi.com

>> _______________________________________________
>>> Mn-abs mailing list
>>> Mn-abs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mn-abs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info

>> for Mn-abs:

>>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/mn-abs_nfbnet.org/kelbycarl

>> son%40usfamily.net

>> _______________________________________________
>> Mn-abs mailing list
>> Mn-abs at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mn-abs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for
>> Mn-abs:

>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/mn-abs_nfbnet.org/lilrichie
411%40gmail.com

>--
>Jordan Richardson
>President, Minnesota Association of Blind Students
>lilrichie411 at gmail.com
>“It is very important to generate a good attitude, a good heart, 
as much as
>possible.  From this, happiness in both the short term and the 
long term for
>both yourself and others will come.”
>--Dalai Lama
>_______________________________________________
>Mn-abs mailing list
>Mn-abs at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/mn-abs_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
for Mn-abs:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/mn-abs_nfbnet.org/kelbycarl
son%40usfamily.net