[nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: Cab drivers in DC pass blind people withguide dogs

Fri Sep 10 14:50:55 UTC 2010

Rebecca,
    I have written to you off-list in the past asking that you treat other 
subscribers with dignity and respect. Now I am asking you to do so publicly. 
This message does not conform to that request! One more message of this sort 
and I will have you put on moderated status.

Marion Gwizdala, President
National Association of Guide Dog Users
National Federation of the Blind
813-626-2789
President at NAGDU.ORG
HTTP://NAGDU.ORG


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: Cab drivers in DC pass blind people 
withguide dogs


> Jewel,
> Keep in mind that you asked for our opinions. Most of us think your idea
> sucks. My opinion is that it sucks ona personal level, and it is
> illegal.
> Know that no matter what I think or what anybody else thinks, you are
> free to do as you wish. My real problem with your message is that I am
> "inconsiderate" because I will not put up with someone breaking the law.
> It'd be like saying "Some guys really want to have children, so to be
> nice, why doesn't every woman make sure their boyfriend or husband
> agrees that birth control is a good idea". Legally, a husband or
> boyfriend gets no input on this issue. As for if this is fair or
> considerate, we could argue that all day. Still, any doctor that
> required that  a woman have husband or boyfriend's conscent would loose
> his or her liscense. Trust that all of us have the capacity to handle
> asituation as we see fit. Please don't use character attacks if you
> disagree with someone else's choice, a choice, a choice that is based on
> an experience that you were not a part of.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 7:57 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: Cab drivers in DC pass blind people
> withguide dogs
>
> Jewel,
>    The cab companies in Tampa were ordered to inquire about allergies
> to
> dog dander in their application documents and, if the applicant
> indicated
> such an allergy, was required to present documentation by a medical
> authority that such allergy resulted in a disabling condition under the
> definition of "disability" in the ADA. In this way, if someone denied
> access
> to a person accompanied by a service animal and claimed such access
> denial
> was due to a severe  allergy, the company and legal authorities could
> check
> the record before taking disciplinary action.
>    According to the Public Transit Authority that regulates and
> licenses
> taxicab companies and drivers in Hillsborough County, there are no
> drivers
> that meet this test among the more than 1500 hack licenses active in the
>
> county. Not only does this support the rarity of an allergy that results
> in
> a disabling condition (<.05%), it also tells me that, if a cabbie
> attempts
> to deny a person with a service animal access to their cab in
> Hillsborough
> County, they are making it up!
>
> fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 8:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: Cab drivers in DC pass blind people
> withguide dogs
>
>
>>I am no condoning outright refusal by a company, and I am not speaking
>> of people with undocumented disabilities. There are documentations for
>> allergies if they are severe enough to be a disability. I knew  a girl
>> in high school who was deathly allergic to cigareette smoke. This was
>> a documented allergy that was considered a disability because the
>> repeated allergic reactions from cigarrete smoke on clohtes, hair,
>> furniutre, etc. caused her to be impaired in her living. The same
>> could be applied to a person who is severely allergic of dogs. Why
>> must they be denied the job of a cab driver just because they *might*
>> encounter a service dog.
>>
>> The company I go to is owned and run by a Muslim who has no trouble
>> with dogs, so let's not assume that everyone
>>
>> I think it's time to simply agree to disagree. There are people who
>> feel that the whole world should accommodate their needs with no
>> consideration for the needs of others, there are other show are simply
>> tired of being refused access because of their diability or service
>> animal. There are still others who wish to work with others to
>> compromise as much as possible. Which category do you belong in? I
>> think the second.
>>
>> And yes, I have had to grab a taxi to the emergency room at 2am
>> because my boyfriend had a diabetic crash. I have had to knock on a
>> neighbour's door to ask for help getting my cat, who cut her paw open
>> on an exposed nail, to the vet hospital down the road. I have had to
>> wait outside a grocery store with ice cream melting and meat
>> defrosting because the cab who was supposed to come never did. I have
>> also had good experiences, and you have to take the god with the bad.
>> At least in my city, the problem of taxi drivers not picking a person
>> up because they are blind or have a service animal is not 50% or
>> anything near it. Here, the taxi drivers are given instructions about
>> disabilities by Accesssible Raleigh Transportation, the paratransit
>> service. Even the ones who aren't sure know something. One driver said
>> he didn't know what the laws were, but he knew that he had to ask if
>> the dog was a service animal, and if he thought it wasn't, he could
>> ask only what the dog does for the person (like alerting to seizures,
>> picking up objects, guiding, etc). He said that he knows he has to
>> take all service anmals, and the majority of drivers around here are
>> the same way.
>>
>> I'm not conding breaking the law. I am just asking that we take other
>> people into consideration. Why must it be either you get your way
>> totally or not at all? Compromise is important.
>>
>> That's all I am going to say on the subject. Any furhter discussion
>> will not find me part of it for fear that it will spiral into
>> name-calling hateful argument.
>>
>> On 9/9/10, Sharon James <sjames at compsolbiz.com> wrote:
>>> If you do decide to be a cab driver, Tami, please put a sign on your
> cab
>>> door so I know not to get in your cab.  Don't want the blind driving
> the
>>> blind around. Lol
>>> sharon
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 6:09 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: Cab drivers in DC pass blind people
>>> withguide dogs
>>>
>>> Rebecca,
>>>
>>> Well, I think the plumbers came into it all as metaphors, an example
> of
>>> things blind people can do for a living that they are only recently
>>> allowed
>>> to.  Or something like that.  It wasn't my metaphor.  /smile/
>>>
>>> As I'm reading the discussion -- and thinking the issue through,
> since I
>>> do
>>> take taxis and would take more if I could afford it -- I keep
> thinking of
>>> the most apt metaphor:  If I am blind, and I want to drive a cab for
>>> aliving, and there's a job opening for a cab driver in my area where
>>> there
>>> are no other jobs for me, and I apply for the job...  Should I be
> given
>>> the
>>> job in light of my disability?  Should I expect everyone else to
>>> accommodate
>>> me then because of my disability and how it affects my ability to
> perform
>>> the duties of the job?
>>>
>>> I do know how to drive, after all.  Dang good driver.  I know my way
>>> around,
>>> I can follow verbal instructions and have good verbal communications
>>> skills.
>>> Why shouldn't I drive a cab for a living?
>>>
>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 9:13 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: Cab drivers in DC pass blind people
>>> withguide dogs
>>>
>>> Jewel,
>>> You are still saying that it's okay to break the law. Why would you
>>> condone that? Great to be all warm and fuzzy, but why should my
> choice
>>> of mobility aide mean I need to accomidate i.e. do what someone with
> an
>>> undocumentet disability wants?
>>> Cab drivers aren't my friends in the context of going someplace, I am
>>> hiring them to do a job. Law says they must accomidate me. That's
> just
>>> the way it is.
>>> You're right, having a support system is good. Still, you ever had to
> go
>>> to the emergency vet with a puking dog at two in the morning? Ever
> had
>>> to go to a surgery center at five in the morning and not know how
> long
>>> you'll be?Ever just not want to be beholden to friends and neighbors?
>>> Ever had neighbors who also have young families?
>>> Having a social support system is fine. Using people is not. Why
> would
>>> you think it's okay to "call on friends and neighbors" but not okay
> to
>>> make someone follow the law ina professional capacity?
>>> Your deaf friend is a friend, not a business transaction. How is that
>>> relivant? And I still don't get how plumbers tie in here. I'd expect
> a
>>> plumber blind or sighted to do his job. If he was a friend and said
> "I
>>> didn't see that beer to hand it to you" fine, he's a friend, he isn't
>>> required to hand me a beer. If he is hired to fix aproblem, I expect
> him
>>> to fix it.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Jewel S.
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 11:52 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: Cab drivers in DC pass blind people
>>> with guide dogs
>>>
>>> No, I do not have a guide dog yet. I will be going next Spring/Summer
>>> (May or June) to train with my first. I don't think that having a
>>> guide dog personally will make any difference in my attitutde. If I
>>> really need to get somewhere urgently, I call a friend or ask a
>>> neighbour to drive me. A social support group is very important.
>>>
>>> Here in Raleigh, the only taxis I take are the paratransit taxis.
>>> Individuals are assigned to a company, and that company picks them up
>>> like the bus would in other places. Correction, that's not the only
>>> taxi I take, but it's rare for me to take another due to price. When
> I
>>> want to go anywhere via taxi that isn't scheduled, I just call my
>>> favourite companies, Cardinal, Yellow, Green, Blue, and ask who has
>>> someone closest. I know already that Yellow and Cardinal have no
>>> problems with guide dogs and train their drivers, save the one who is
>>> severely allergic and I think his special accommodation is possible
>>> and appropriate, especially since Cardinal is such a large company
>>> that they *can* get a cab to most locations within 10
>>> minutes....sometimes less! I called them once for a pick-up, and a
> cab
>>> was there less than five minutes less.
>>>
>>> The doctor office situation, no I wouldn't take the "bring someone"
>>> thing. However, there is never just one person in a doctor's office.
> I
>>> would tell her to get another nurse or an administrative worker to
>>> come and help me fill out the paperwork. I also insist that it be
> done
>>> in the examination room, for my own privacy. Calling another person
> is
>>> a simple accommodation for many disabilities that can't accommodate
>>> other special needs, and I've seen it before, so why not do it with
>>> cab drivers?
>>>
>>> The reason plumbers and engineers came into the message was this.
>>> Someone said that people with severe allergies should find another
>>> job. I said they have as much right to be a taxi driver as a blind
>>> person does being a plumber or engineer, which is to say, they have
>>> all the right in the world. Would you tell a blind person that they
>>> need to go find another job instead of becoming a plumber? What about
>>> doctor?
>>>
>>> I just feel that many people are not willing to accommodate the
>>> special needs of people with a disability that is not their own. For
>>> example, I was talking to some people at the bus stop the other day.
> I
>>> asked if they minded if I turned on my audio book (that's how it got
>>> started), and the lady next to me said "I don't mind. I wouldn't be
>>> able to hear it anyway. I'm deaf." and we started discussing what she
>>> finds easy and difficult about the buses, because I enjoy learning
>>> about other disabilities and finding out what sort of accommodations
>>> are important to them...I believe in Universal Design wherever
>>> possible. Anyway, she told me that sometimes the hardest thing is
>>> people either not believing she's disabled because she reads lips so
>>> well, or they shout at her or move their lips in exaggerated
>>> movements. She also said that the worst she had seen was several
> blind
>>> people, who used a huge number of gestures (not sign language, just
>>> gestures) and spoke loud and slow, making it extremely hard for her
> to
>>> understand. These two blind people, whoever they were, are a prime
>>> example of why the stereotype is that blind people and deaf people
>>> cannot converse, let alone become friends. Shell, the deaf lady I was
>>> talking about, is my new friend, and her stop is only two before
> mine,
>>> so I'm sure I'll see her around a lot more now that we've met.
>>>
>>> I think it is important to remember that we are all different. There
>>> was a survey in the mid-90's that stated ath around 60% (I think it
>>> was 62) of blind people have some other form of disability in
> addition
>>> to visiual impairment. And yet I see blind people putting down one
>>> another because of their additional disabilities, and not willing to
>>> accommodate each other except for blindness. A great example is my
>>> boyfriend, who is dyslexic, but his Braille instructor refused to
>>> consider his dyslexia when teaching him Braille, and now he and I are
>>> working on it, along with a Hadley class with a teacher who
>>> understands Braille dyslexia. the original instructor told him that
>>> "dyslexia has no place in Braille." It may not, but it sticks its
> ugly
>>> nose in anyway!
>>>
>>> On 9/9/10, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
> wrote:
>>>> Jewel,
>>>> If the cab drivers would log that they have  severe allergy, that's
>>>> fine. Thing is, the y won't as it takes away from the almighty
> dollar.
>>>> Finally, you can't make the company have a cab there "within ten
>>>> minutes" same as you can't "make your husband get home on time"
> "make
>>>> your kid stop crying" "make your boyfriend like your sister" you get
>>> the
>>>> idea.
>>>> What you are agreeing to is that people break the law. Why is that
>>> okay
>>>> with you?
>>>> Finally, people call cabs to serve urgent needs. Ten minutes may
>>> indeed
>>>> make a world of difference.
>>>> Once a cab has left, you're screwed The driver or dispatch can say
>>>> anything they want.
>>>> Finally how does religion play into this? If I want or need to do
>>>> something religious, I do it on my own time.
>>>> Finally, I have no earthly idea how plumbers and engineers came into
>>>> this discussion. Would you hire a plumber who said "I didn't see
> that
>>>> leak, I'm blind" Their job is to find and resolve leaks, blindness
>>>> wouldn't be an excuse for *not* doing this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Jewel S.
>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 6:37 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: EXTERNAL:Re: [nagdu] Cab drivers in DC pass blind people
> with
>>>> guide dogs
>>>>
>>>> I have to politely disagree.  A person with a severe allergy to dogs
>>>> has a smuch right to be a taxi driver as a blind person has the
> right
>>>> to be an engineer or plumber.
>>>>
>>>> And if the allergy is a disability, then it is not a possibility of
>>>> not having a job based on that allergy. That would be discrimination
>>>> under the ADA and a possible lawsuit.
>>>>
>>>> See, what I think I see is that people want their accommodations
> met,
>>>> and don't give a rat's butt if it interferes with the needs of
> someone
>>>> else. If a person can handle a dog nearby for a few moments, but
> can't
>>>> handle the dander on the cab's upholstery for the hours that it will
>>>> remain after, why shouldn't they be allowed to refuse based on
> special
>>>> accommodation and provide alternative transportation.
>>>>
>>>> personally, my feeling is that if it is such a major concern, call
> the
>>>> company beforehand and request a driver that isn't allergic. Why
> hail
>>>> a cab off the streets in this day of cell phones? Just call the
>>>> company and ask for a cab, and it'll be there in 5 minutes.
>>>>
>>>> If the problem is with a particular company, then don't call that
>>>> company, and tell eveyrone you know about the problem you had with
>>>> them. The fewer clients, the less likely that company will be
> around.
>>>>
>>>> Me, if I were told I couldn't ride because of a severe allergy, I'd
>>>> say "That's fine, as long as yuo have a second taxi here within 10
>>>> minutes. 10 minutes will not make a difference. If it is going to
> make
>>>> a difference between getting on time to an interview or work and
> being
>>>> late, you need to give yourself more time! Ten minutes is not enough
>>>> leave-way.
>>>>
>>>> I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I am
> willing
>>>> to "bend over backward" as you call it. I am willing to accommodate
>>>> other people's special needs in return for them accommodating mine.
>>>> How can we say we want our accommdations met, but not meet the
>>>> accommodations of others? Isn't that rather hypocritical?
>>>>
>>>> On 9/9/10, Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net> wrote:
>>>>> Well, my friend:
>>>>> I am going to sound combative, but I am expressing an honestly held
>>>> opinion,
>>>>> an opinion which is not meant in any way to belittle you as I'm
> sure
>>>> you're
>>>>> a nice person and so on.
>>>>> Give me a break, is my opinion.
>>>>> I think that a lot of us are really too much in to bending over
>>>> backwards to
>>>>> accommodate, in quotes.
>>>>> Malarkey.
>>>>> It is necessary for companies, entities to accommodate the presence
>>> of
>>>> a
>>>>> service animal because of the special status service dogs, etc.
> have
>>>> been
>>>>> given in society.  This is the result of long struggle and
> advocacy.
>>>>> We are not the ones to do the accommodating, jeeze.
>>>>>
>>>>> I will quote both my sister, who has bad dog and cat allergies, and
> a
>>>> doctor
>>>>> I spoke to.
>>>>> The instance of dog allergies is quite a bit less than sever cat
>>>> allergies.
>>>>> The instances of severe medical consequences from dog dander is
>>>> actually
>>>>> rare.
>>>>> Discomfort someone might have is, and frankly should be, none of my
>>>> concern.
>>>>> And now the doctor: he told me that if a dog dander allergy were
>>>> severe,
>>>>> then the person would react to even dander brought in on someone's
>>>> cloths,
>>>>> packages, shoes, etc.  So, where do we draw the line.
>>>>>
>>>>> I base a lot of my opinions on the experience with my sister, c,
> who
>>>> can't
>>>>> have dogs and cats in her house and so on.. She has been a royal
> burr
>>>> in my
>>>>> rear since I got a dog, but we've had discussions and she's in
> total
>>>>> agreement about the guide dog  access issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is this, because I have a guide dog I have to spend my whole
>>> life
>>>>> bending over backwards to be considerate.
>>>>>  I don't think so. Now, you are saying,  don't you want to be
>>>> considerate?
>>>>> Yes, but only in the same way I'm considerate to everyone
> everywhere
>>> I
>>>> go,
>>>>> not a special consideration for dumb ass cab drivers who have a
> thing
>>>> or an
>>>>> imagined thing about dogs.  Boy, that felt good, let it all out
>>>> Dan--lol.
>>>>>
>>>>> My consideration is shown in my brushing my dog, in my keeping him
>>>>> well-behaved, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> If these guys would just suck it up and do their job then life
> would
>>>> be much
>>>>> simpler.
>>>>>
>>>>> A severe allergy, as I think I stated so wordily in another
>>>>> message--smile--if it is a disability would require a record of
> such
>>>> and
>>>>> drivers I've talked to don't want that because then it could be a
>>>> reason for
>>>>> them not to have the job in the first place.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure either, Jewel, that that's such an original
>>>> accommodation, in
>>>>> quotes.
>>>>> Plenty of drivers in Maryland told me I'd have to have another cab
> or
>>>> they
>>>>> called dispatch.  The point is it doesn't wash.
>>>>> As long as a significant amount of the guide dog using population
>>>> feels that
>>>>> we're walking on eggs and the mere fact of being allowed treatment
>>>> with
>>>>> dignity is such a hardship for the public, the longer this will go
>>> on.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, I need my coffee.
>>>>>
>>>>> Remember, the only thing I know about you or anyone else here is
> what
>>>> you
>>>>> say on the list, so please don't take it personally.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan W. and the big black bear, I mean dog, Carter
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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> for
>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40g
>>>> mail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ~Jewel
>>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ~Jewel
>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>>
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>>
>>
>> -- 
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
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