[nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing

Alan awheeler at neb.rr.com
Thu Oct 15 18:26:19 UTC 2009


Okay, I misunderstood the tone of your message.  That happens, and I do 
apologize.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bryan Schulz" <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing


> that's why i don't post much on here/these lists.
> people don't have anything better to do with their time so they enjoy 
> twisting others words.
> i didn't criticize the co center, i just gave the reason for the activity.
>
> Bryan Schulz
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>
>
>> Alan,
>>
>> You shouldn't assume that anyone who disagrees with an NFB policy is 
>> biased against them. Bryan may have very good reasons for his criticism. 
>> In fact, it's harmful to the NFB to blame people for merely criticizing 
>> the NFB. If the NFB is doing something wrong, how is it to improve if 
>> people don't criticize it? And being harsh toward those who criticize the 
>> NFB would tend to drive them out. You wouldn't want the NFB to be left as 
>> nothing more than a collection of true believers, would you?
>>
>> If the NFB isn't wrong, then simply explaining that is the best approach. 
>> People tend to see the truth and be persuaded by it. Truth itself has 
>> power.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:55 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>
>>
>>> Hmmm, biased against the centers, are we?
>>>
>>> Personally, I think it's a nice approach, and they don't act like nazis 
>>> or dictators about it, either.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:14 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>
>>>
>>>> hi,
>>>>
>>>> the gobbly goop explanation is that you will gain confidence from the 
>>>> rock climbing so you can transfer that to other tasks that seem 
>>>> impossible to you.
>>>>
>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:03 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm unclear as to the purpose of these centers? Do people go to them 
>>>>> for the opportunity to do things like rock climbing?  Because I would 
>>>>> imagine that if the NFB didn't provide opportunities like that, it 
>>>>> would be very difficult to find them otherwise. I can't imagine most 
>>>>> rock climbing places letting blind people participate. Heck, one time 
>>>>> I tried to sign up for a wood working class and they kicked me out 
>>>>> when they found out I was blind.
>>>>>
>>>>> But if a person wants to work on his job and mobility skills, he 
>>>>> shouldn't be forced to climb rocks. I wouldn't have a problem with 
>>>>> state governments supporting recreational facilities for the blind. 
>>>>> But if these centers are intended primarily as rehab centers, then 
>>>>> they shouldn't be forcing people to climb rocks.
>>>>>
>>>>> ---- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:17 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello Jim and listers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Okay let me take a stab at this one. I'll insert my comments 
>>>>>> following
>>>>>> yours and will indicate them with the letter A. Here goes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello all!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do all NFB centers insist that clients rock climb?  I'm referring to 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> three NFB centers in Minnesota, Colorado, and Louisiana as well as 
>>>>>> centers
>>>>>> which are a part of a state's rehab program as is the case in Iowa 
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Nebraska?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A. Yes
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Can a client be exempt from this exercise due to health, age or
>>>>>> other complications?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A.
>>>>>>    Each case is considered on an individual basis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have people been denied services from all of the above
>>>>>> agencies if they refused to rock climb or they obtained a doctor's 
>>>>>> statement
>>>>>> that they shouldn't engage in such activity?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A.
>>>>>>    Recall the discussion of informed choice we've had from 
>>>>>> time-to-time.
>>>>>> These centers have a set curriculum students are required to take 
>>>>>> including
>>>>>> participation in recreational activities such as rock climbing. Such
>>>>>> exemptions could be viewed as attempts by center students to 
>>>>>> "Menuize" the
>>>>>> training. They never realize the full benefit of the program if they 
>>>>>> attempt
>>>>>> to "Water down" these center curriculums by requesting exemptions 
>>>>>> from this
>>>>>> or that part of the training. Here again each case is considered on 
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> individual basis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  What exempts people from this
>>>>>> activity and if they are exempt, can they still receive services from 
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> NFB agencies?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    A.
>>>>>>    Much of my answer can be found above but I'll add here that if a 
>>>>>> student
>>>>>> chooses not to participate in a class or activity all center students 
>>>>>> must
>>>>>> attend or take part in they should reconsider their choice of 
>>>>>> orientation
>>>>>> and adjustment center if they're unwilling to participate in the 
>>>>>> entire
>>>>>> center curriculum.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A friend of mine returned from one of these centers.  He has a badly
>>>>>> sprained leg or he has pulled ligaments in his leg!  Needless to say, 
>>>>>> he is
>>>>>> out of the program or is immobile for an undetermined amount of time! 
>>>>>> This
>>>>>> person was otherwise happy with the program and I commend this person 
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> giving it a good try but I think there comes a time when a person my 
>>>>>> age who
>>>>>> is twice 30 shouldn't attempt such a thing!  If I were in my 20s and 
>>>>>> 30s, I
>>>>>> wouldn't question this but when one is in their late 40s and beyond, 
>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>> question whether this is such a good idea!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any thoughts?A.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Our centers have had students in their 80s participate in roc 
>>>>>> climbing,
>>>>>> skydiving, and other high-impact activities. There are several 
>>>>>> accounts of
>>>>>> blind senior citizens that attended our centers and participated in 
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> aspects of their programs and had a darn good time doing so published 
>>>>>> in The
>>>>>> Braille Monitor. Your friend needs to not allow his accident prevent 
>>>>>> him
>>>>>> from returning to the NFB center to finish his training. There are 
>>>>>> numerous
>>>>>> accounts of students who due to accident or illness were unable to 
>>>>>> complete
>>>>>> the initial part of their training but returned later to finish. This 
>>>>>> should
>>>>>> not be a problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    As far as doctors exemptions go remember that health care 
>>>>>> professionals
>>>>>> are influanced by the same prevailing attitudes and beliefs about 
>>>>>> blindness
>>>>>> and our capabilities as is the general public. It would be easy for a 
>>>>>> doctor
>>>>>> to "issue a letter requesting that a student not be required to 
>>>>>> participate
>>>>>> in this or that part of the center program due to these mistaken 
>>>>>> attitudes
>>>>>> and beliefs about the blind. What happens if that same doctor is 
>>>>>> presented
>>>>>> with a health report for a blind individual in their 80s wishing to 
>>>>>> attend a
>>>>>> sports camp where rock climbing is one of the activities offered and 
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> patient chooses to participate in that activity. There's the 
>>>>>> possibility
>>>>>> that the doctor may discourage this person from engaging in rock 
>>>>>> climbing
>>>>>> even though the person is healthy. They can thank the patient who 
>>>>>> mistakenly
>>>>>> believed that older blind individuals shouldn't participate in this
>>>>>> activity. Let me recommend that you take some rock climbing lessons 
>>>>>> and then
>>>>>> reread your post.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    I hope I was able to shed some light on this issue for you. All 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> best.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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