[nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
Bryan Schulz
b.schulz at sbcglobal.net
Thu Oct 15 18:38:56 UTC 2009
hi,
thanks, now if you want to talk about rock climbing and blowing 300 large to
do it then there may be some criticism.
Bryan Schulz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
> Okay, I misunderstood the tone of your message. That happens, and I do
> apologize.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bryan Schulz" <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>
>
>> that's why i don't post much on here/these lists.
>> people don't have anything better to do with their time so they enjoy
>> twisting others words.
>> i didn't criticize the co center, i just gave the reason for the
>> activity.
>>
>> Bryan Schulz
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>
>>
>>> Alan,
>>>
>>> You shouldn't assume that anyone who disagrees with an NFB policy is
>>> biased against them. Bryan may have very good reasons for his criticism.
>>> In fact, it's harmful to the NFB to blame people for merely criticizing
>>> the NFB. If the NFB is doing something wrong, how is it to improve if
>>> people don't criticize it? And being harsh toward those who criticize
>>> the NFB would tend to drive them out. You wouldn't want the NFB to be
>>> left as nothing more than a collection of true believers, would you?
>>>
>>> If the NFB isn't wrong, then simply explaining that is the best
>>> approach. People tend to see the truth and be persuaded by it. Truth
>>> itself has power.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:55 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hmmm, biased against the centers, are we?
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I think it's a nice approach, and they don't act like nazis
>>>> or dictators about it, either.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:14 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> the gobbly goop explanation is that you will gain confidence from the
>>>>> rock climbing so you can transfer that to other tasks that seem
>>>>> impossible to you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:03 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm unclear as to the purpose of these centers? Do people go to them
>>>>>> for the opportunity to do things like rock climbing? Because I would
>>>>>> imagine that if the NFB didn't provide opportunities like that, it
>>>>>> would be very difficult to find them otherwise. I can't imagine most
>>>>>> rock climbing places letting blind people participate. Heck, one time
>>>>>> I tried to sign up for a wood working class and they kicked me out
>>>>>> when they found out I was blind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But if a person wants to work on his job and mobility skills, he
>>>>>> shouldn't be forced to climb rocks. I wouldn't have a problem with
>>>>>> state governments supporting recreational facilities for the blind.
>>>>>> But if these centers are intended primarily as rehab centers, then
>>>>>> they shouldn't be forcing people to climb rocks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:17 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello Jim and listers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Okay let me take a stab at this one. I'll insert my comments
>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>> yours and will indicate them with the letter A. Here goes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello all!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do all NFB centers insist that clients rock climb? I'm referring to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> three NFB centers in Minnesota, Colorado, and Louisiana as well as
>>>>>>> centers
>>>>>>> which are a part of a state's rehab program as is the case in Iowa
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Nebraska?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A. Yes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can a client be exempt from this exercise due to health, age or
>>>>>>> other complications?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A.
>>>>>>> Each case is considered on an individual basis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have people been denied services from all of the above
>>>>>>> agencies if they refused to rock climb or they obtained a doctor's
>>>>>>> statement
>>>>>>> that they shouldn't engage in such activity?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A.
>>>>>>> Recall the discussion of informed choice we've had from
>>>>>>> time-to-time.
>>>>>>> These centers have a set curriculum students are required to take
>>>>>>> including
>>>>>>> participation in recreational activities such as rock climbing. Such
>>>>>>> exemptions could be viewed as attempts by center students to
>>>>>>> "Menuize" the
>>>>>>> training. They never realize the full benefit of the program if they
>>>>>>> attempt
>>>>>>> to "Water down" these center curriculums by requesting exemptions
>>>>>>> from this
>>>>>>> or that part of the training. Here again each case is considered on
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>> individual basis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What exempts people from this
>>>>>>> activity and if they are exempt, can they still receive services
>>>>>>> from our
>>>>>>> NFB agencies?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A.
>>>>>>> Much of my answer can be found above but I'll add here that if a
>>>>>>> student
>>>>>>> chooses not to participate in a class or activity all center
>>>>>>> students must
>>>>>>> attend or take part in they should reconsider their choice of
>>>>>>> orientation
>>>>>>> and adjustment center if they're unwilling to participate in the
>>>>>>> entire
>>>>>>> center curriculum.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A friend of mine returned from one of these centers. He has a badly
>>>>>>> sprained leg or he has pulled ligaments in his leg! Needless to
>>>>>>> say, he is
>>>>>>> out of the program or is immobile for an undetermined amount of
>>>>>>> time! This
>>>>>>> person was otherwise happy with the program and I commend this
>>>>>>> person for
>>>>>>> giving it a good try but I think there comes a time when a person my
>>>>>>> age who
>>>>>>> is twice 30 shouldn't attempt such a thing! If I were in my 20s and
>>>>>>> 30s, I
>>>>>>> wouldn't question this but when one is in their late 40s and beyond,
>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>> question whether this is such a good idea!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any thoughts?A.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Our centers have had students in their 80s participate in roc
>>>>>>> climbing,
>>>>>>> skydiving, and other high-impact activities. There are several
>>>>>>> accounts of
>>>>>>> blind senior citizens that attended our centers and participated in
>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>> aspects of their programs and had a darn good time doing so
>>>>>>> published in The
>>>>>>> Braille Monitor. Your friend needs to not allow his accident prevent
>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>> from returning to the NFB center to finish his training. There are
>>>>>>> numerous
>>>>>>> accounts of students who due to accident or illness were unable to
>>>>>>> complete
>>>>>>> the initial part of their training but returned later to finish.
>>>>>>> This should
>>>>>>> not be a problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as doctors exemptions go remember that health care
>>>>>>> professionals
>>>>>>> are influanced by the same prevailing attitudes and beliefs about
>>>>>>> blindness
>>>>>>> and our capabilities as is the general public. It would be easy for
>>>>>>> a doctor
>>>>>>> to "issue a letter requesting that a student not be required to
>>>>>>> participate
>>>>>>> in this or that part of the center program due to these mistaken
>>>>>>> attitudes
>>>>>>> and beliefs about the blind. What happens if that same doctor is
>>>>>>> presented
>>>>>>> with a health report for a blind individual in their 80s wishing to
>>>>>>> attend a
>>>>>>> sports camp where rock climbing is one of the activities offered and
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> patient chooses to participate in that activity. There's the
>>>>>>> possibility
>>>>>>> that the doctor may discourage this person from engaging in rock
>>>>>>> climbing
>>>>>>> even though the person is healthy. They can thank the patient who
>>>>>>> mistakenly
>>>>>>> believed that older blind individuals shouldn't participate in this
>>>>>>> activity. Let me recommend that you take some rock climbing lessons
>>>>>>> and then
>>>>>>> reread your post.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope I was able to shed some light on this issue for you. All
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> best.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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