[nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing

Alan awheeler at neb.rr.com
Fri Oct 16 15:43:50 UTC 2009


Reread Peter's message, and carefully.  The poingt is *NOT* to do something 
extraordinary.  You're seeing what you want to see in the rock climbing 
activitiy.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing


> Alan, that is not a generalization. It's a fact.  NFB centers do require 
> those attending to go rock climbing. And the whole point of the excersize 
> is to do something extraordinary. If you're going to quibble over my use 
> of the word "super", well, that's just silly.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>
>
>> Ah the classic "super blindy" generalization people like to make about 
>> the NFB.  There may be some in the NFB with this attitude, but it doesn't 
>> accurately reflect the organization as a whole.  If I shouldn't make 
>> assumptions like the one I was corrected on earlier, then generalizations 
>> like this one should not be allowed to stand, either, in my opinion.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:46 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>
>>
>>> In my opinion, it's just another example of the NFB turning it's back on 
>>> the part of the blind community that needs it most.   This is exactly 
>>> why the NFB philosophy is so harmful. Rock climbing just isn't for 
>>> everyone. You shouldn't have to be super, rock climbing blind guy (or 
>>> gal) to receive services from the NFB.
>>>
>>> The NFB philosophy blames the victim. If you aren't making it in this 
>>> world, it's your own fault. Get in here and get some climbing in and 
>>> everything will be rosy. But  I'd like to see some real evidence that 
>>> rock climbing makes any difference what so ever. Oh, I have little doubt 
>>> that those who go through with the climbing do better than those who 
>>> don't. But that's most likely because they're more motivated in the 
>>> first place. Of course people who are willing to climb rocks do better 
>>> than those who don't. But what about all those people who are scared 
>>> away from the NFB centers because they have to climb rocks? Doesn't the 
>>> NFB have a responsibility to aid those people too? Don't they have an 
>>> even *greater* responsibility to help those people?
>>>
>>> Essentially, the NFB philosophy says we're only going to help people who 
>>> don't really need our help that much. We're only going to help people 
>>> who probably would make it on their own anyway. If you're really messed 
>>> up, well, too bad for you. If you're not super blind guy (or gal) we're 
>>> not interested in helping you.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>> To: "Chad Allen" <chad at chadallenmagic.com>; "NFB Talk Mailing List" 
>>> <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:43 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>
>>>
>>>> Good afternoon everyone,
>>>>
>>>>    Exactly. Anyone who doesn't want to fulfill this requirement for
>>>> successful completion of training at one of our centers needs to 
>>>> rethink
>>>> their choice of orientation and adjustment center. Informed choice 
>>>> rules!
>>>>
>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Chad Allen" <chad at chadallenmagic.com>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:03 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is considered a requirement for graduation from the center. 
>>>> Everything is
>>>> discussed prior to enrollment and is simply par for the course.
>>>>
>>>> -original message-
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> Date: 10/15/2009 10:31 AM
>>>>
>>>> oh yea,
>>>>
>>>> try getting out of it!
>>>>
>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:44 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> No one is forced.  It is, to my knowledge, just an option.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:03 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm unclear as to the purpose of these centers? Do people go to them 
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> the opportunity to do things like rock climbing?  Because I would 
>>>>>> imagine
>>>>>> that if the NFB didn't provide opportunities like that, it would be 
>>>>>> very
>>>>>> difficult to find them otherwise. I can't imagine most rock climbing
>>>>>> places letting blind people participate. Heck, one time I tried to 
>>>>>> sign
>>>>>> up for a wood working class and they kicked me out when they found 
>>>>>> out I
>>>>>> was blind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But if a person wants to work on his job and mobility skills, he
>>>>>> shouldn't be forced to climb rocks. I wouldn't have a problem with 
>>>>>> state
>>>>>> governments supporting recreational facilities for the blind. But if
>>>>>> these centers are intended primarily as rehab centers, then they
>>>>>> shouldn't be forcing people to climb rocks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:17 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello Jim and listers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Okay let me take a stab at this one. I'll insert my comments
>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>> yours and will indicate them with the letter A. Here goes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello all!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do all NFB centers insist that clients rock climb?  I'm referring to 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> three NFB centers in Minnesota, Colorado, and Louisiana as well as
>>>>>>> centers
>>>>>>> which are a part of a state's rehab program as is the case in Iowa 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Nebraska?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A. Yes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Can a client be exempt from this exercise due to health, age or
>>>>>>> other complications?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A.
>>>>>>>    Each case is considered on an individual basis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have people been denied services from all of the above
>>>>>>> agencies if they refused to rock climb or they obtained a doctor's
>>>>>>> statement
>>>>>>> that they shouldn't engage in such activity?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A.
>>>>>>>    Recall the discussion of informed choice we've had from 
>>>>>>> time-to-time.
>>>>>>> These centers have a set curriculum students are required to take
>>>>>>> including
>>>>>>> participation in recreational activities such as rock climbing. Such
>>>>>>> exemptions could be viewed as attempts by center students to 
>>>>>>> "Menuize"
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> training. They never realize the full benefit of the program if they
>>>>>>> attempt
>>>>>>> to "Water down" these center curriculums by requesting exemptions 
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> or that part of the training. Here again each case is considered on 
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>> individual basis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  What exempts people from this
>>>>>>> activity and if they are exempt, can they still receive services 
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>> NFB agencies?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    A.
>>>>>>>    Much of my answer can be found above but I'll add here that if a
>>>>>>> student
>>>>>>> chooses not to participate in a class or activity all center 
>>>>>>> students
>>>>>>> must
>>>>>>> attend or take part in they should reconsider their choice of
>>>>>>> orientation
>>>>>>> and adjustment center if they're unwilling to participate in the 
>>>>>>> entire
>>>>>>> center curriculum.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A friend of mine returned from one of these centers.  He has a badly
>>>>>>> sprained leg or he has pulled ligaments in his leg!  Needless to 
>>>>>>> say, he
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> out of the program or is immobile for an undetermined amount of 
>>>>>>> time!
>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>> person was otherwise happy with the program and I commend this 
>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> giving it a good try but I think there comes a time when a person my 
>>>>>>> age
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> is twice 30 shouldn't attempt such a thing!  If I were in my 20s and
>>>>>>> 30s, I
>>>>>>> wouldn't question this but when one is in their late 40s and beyond, 
>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>> question whether this is such a good idea!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any thoughts?A.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Our centers have had students in their 80s participate in roc
>>>>>>> climbing,
>>>>>>> skydiving, and other high-impact activities. There are several 
>>>>>>> accounts
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> blind senior citizens that attended our centers and participated in 
>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>> aspects of their programs and had a darn good time doing so 
>>>>>>> published in
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>> Braille Monitor. Your friend needs to not allow his accident prevent 
>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>> from returning to the NFB center to finish his training. There are
>>>>>>> numerous
>>>>>>> accounts of students who due to accident or illness were unable to
>>>>>>> complete
>>>>>>> the initial part of their training but returned later to finish. 
>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>> not be a problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    As far as doctors exemptions go remember that health care
>>>>>>> professionals
>>>>>>> are influanced by the same prevailing attitudes and beliefs about
>>>>>>> blindness
>>>>>>> and our capabilities as is the general public. It would be easy for 
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> doctor
>>>>>>> to "issue a letter requesting that a student not be required to
>>>>>>> participate
>>>>>>> in this or that part of the center program due to these mistaken
>>>>>>> attitudes
>>>>>>> and beliefs about the blind. What happens if that same doctor is
>>>>>>> presented
>>>>>>> with a health report for a blind individual in their 80s wishing to
>>>>>>> attend a
>>>>>>> sports camp where rock climbing is one of the activities offered and
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> patient chooses to participate in that activity. There's the 
>>>>>>> possibility
>>>>>>> that the doctor may discourage this person from engaging in rock
>>>>>>> climbing
>>>>>>> even though the person is healthy. They can thank the patient who
>>>>>>> mistakenly
>>>>>>> believed that older blind individuals shouldn't participate in this
>>>>>>> activity. Let me recommend that you take some rock climbing lessons 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>> reread your post.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    I hope I was able to shed some light on this issue for you. All 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> best.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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