[nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing

Fri Oct 16 16:42:23 UTC 2009

Don't insult me. I did read Peters message carefully. If you think I missed 
something, explain it.

Look, if I got something wrong, correct it. ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing

> Reread Peter's message, and carefully.  The poingt is *NOT* to do 
> something extraordinary.  You're seeing what you want to see in the rock 
> climbing activitiy.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>
>
>> Alan, that is not a generalization. It's a fact.  NFB centers do require 
>> those attending to go rock climbing. And the whole point of the excersize 
>> is to do something extraordinary. If you're going to quibble over my use 
>> of the word "super", well, that's just silly.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:48 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>
>>
>>> Ah the classic "super blindy" generalization people like to make about 
>>> the NFB.  There may be some in the NFB with this attitude, but it 
>>> doesn't accurately reflect the organization as a whole.  If I shouldn't 
>>> make assumptions like the one I was corrected on earlier, then 
>>> generalizations like this one should not be allowed to stand, either, in 
>>> my opinion.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:46 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>
>>>
>>>> In my opinion, it's just another example of the NFB turning it's back 
>>>> on the part of the blind community that needs it most.   This is 
>>>> exactly why the NFB philosophy is so harmful. Rock climbing just isn't 
>>>> for everyone. You shouldn't have to be super, rock climbing blind guy 
>>>> (or gal) to receive services from the NFB.
>>>>
>>>> The NFB philosophy blames the victim. If you aren't making it in this 
>>>> world, it's your own fault. Get in here and get some climbing in and 
>>>> everything will be rosy. But  I'd like to see some real evidence that 
>>>> rock climbing makes any difference what so ever. Oh, I have little 
>>>> doubt that those who go through with the climbing do better than those 
>>>> who don't. But that's most likely because they're more motivated in the 
>>>> first place. Of course people who are willing to climb rocks do better 
>>>> than those who don't. But what about all those people who are scared 
>>>> away from the NFB centers because they have to climb rocks? Doesn't the 
>>>> NFB have a responsibility to aid those people too? Don't they have an 
>>>> even *greater* responsibility to help those people?
>>>>
>>>> Essentially, the NFB philosophy says we're only going to help people 
>>>> who don't really need our help that much. We're only going to help 
>>>> people who probably would make it on their own anyway. If you're really 
>>>> messed up, well, too bad for you. If you're not super blind guy (or 
>>>> gal) we're not interested in helping you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> To: "Chad Allen" <chad at chadallenmagic.com>; "NFB Talk Mailing List" 
>>>> <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:43 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Good afternoon everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>>    Exactly. Anyone who doesn't want to fulfill this requirement for
>>>>> successful completion of training at one of our centers needs to 
>>>>> rethink
>>>>> their choice of orientation and adjustment center. Informed choice 
>>>>> rules!
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "Chad Allen" <chad at chadallenmagic.com>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:03 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It is considered a requirement for graduation from the center. 
>>>>> Everything is
>>>>> discussed prior to enrollment and is simply par for the course.
>>>>>
>>>>> -original message-
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> Date: 10/15/2009 10:31 AM
>>>>>
>>>>> oh yea,
>>>>>
>>>>> try getting out of it!
>>>>>
>>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:44 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> No one is forced.  It is, to my knowledge, just an option.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:03 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm unclear as to the purpose of these centers? Do people go to them 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> the opportunity to do things like rock climbing?  Because I would 
>>>>>>> imagine
>>>>>>> that if the NFB didn't provide opportunities like that, it would be 
>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>> difficult to find them otherwise. I can't imagine most rock climbing
>>>>>>> places letting blind people participate. Heck, one time I tried to 
>>>>>>> sign
>>>>>>> up for a wood working class and they kicked me out when they found 
>>>>>>> out I
>>>>>>> was blind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But if a person wants to work on his job and mobility skills, he
>>>>>>> shouldn't be forced to climb rocks. I wouldn't have a problem with 
>>>>>>> state
>>>>>>> governments supporting recreational facilities for the blind. But if
>>>>>>> these centers are intended primarily as rehab centers, then they
>>>>>>> shouldn't be forcing people to climb rocks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:17 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello Jim and listers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Okay let me take a stab at this one. I'll insert my comments
>>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>>> yours and will indicate them with the letter A. Here goes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello all!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do all NFB centers insist that clients rock climb?  I'm referring 
>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>> three NFB centers in Minnesota, Colorado, and Louisiana as well as
>>>>>>>> centers
>>>>>>>> which are a part of a state's rehab program as is the case in Iowa 
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> Nebraska?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A. Yes
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Can a client be exempt from this exercise due to health, age or
>>>>>>>> other complications?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A.
>>>>>>>>    Each case is considered on an individual basis.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Have people been denied services from all of the above
>>>>>>>> agencies if they refused to rock climb or they obtained a doctor's
>>>>>>>> statement
>>>>>>>> that they shouldn't engage in such activity?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A.
>>>>>>>>    Recall the discussion of informed choice we've had from 
>>>>>>>> time-to-time.
>>>>>>>> These centers have a set curriculum students are required to take
>>>>>>>> including
>>>>>>>> participation in recreational activities such as rock climbing. 
>>>>>>>> Such
>>>>>>>> exemptions could be viewed as attempts by center students to 
>>>>>>>> "Menuize"
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> training. They never realize the full benefit of the program if 
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> attempt
>>>>>>>> to "Water down" these center curriculums by requesting exemptions 
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> or that part of the training. Here again each case is considered on 
>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>> individual basis.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  What exempts people from this
>>>>>>>> activity and if they are exempt, can they still receive services 
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>> NFB agencies?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    A.
>>>>>>>>    Much of my answer can be found above but I'll add here that if a
>>>>>>>> student
>>>>>>>> chooses not to participate in a class or activity all center 
>>>>>>>> students
>>>>>>>> must
>>>>>>>> attend or take part in they should reconsider their choice of
>>>>>>>> orientation
>>>>>>>> and adjustment center if they're unwilling to participate in the 
>>>>>>>> entire
>>>>>>>> center curriculum.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A friend of mine returned from one of these centers.  He has a 
>>>>>>>> badly
>>>>>>>> sprained leg or he has pulled ligaments in his leg!  Needless to 
>>>>>>>> say, he
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> out of the program or is immobile for an undetermined amount of 
>>>>>>>> time!
>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>> person was otherwise happy with the program and I commend this 
>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> giving it a good try but I think there comes a time when a person 
>>>>>>>> my age
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> is twice 30 shouldn't attempt such a thing!  If I were in my 20s 
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> 30s, I
>>>>>>>> wouldn't question this but when one is in their late 40s and 
>>>>>>>> beyond, I'd
>>>>>>>> question whether this is such a good idea!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any thoughts?A.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    Our centers have had students in their 80s participate in roc
>>>>>>>> climbing,
>>>>>>>> skydiving, and other high-impact activities. There are several 
>>>>>>>> accounts
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> blind senior citizens that attended our centers and participated in 
>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>> aspects of their programs and had a darn good time doing so 
>>>>>>>> published in
>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> Braille Monitor. Your friend needs to not allow his accident 
>>>>>>>> prevent him
>>>>>>>> from returning to the NFB center to finish his training. There are
>>>>>>>> numerous
>>>>>>>> accounts of students who due to accident or illness were unable to
>>>>>>>> complete
>>>>>>>> the initial part of their training but returned later to finish. 
>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> not be a problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    As far as doctors exemptions go remember that health care
>>>>>>>> professionals
>>>>>>>> are influanced by the same prevailing attitudes and beliefs about
>>>>>>>> blindness
>>>>>>>> and our capabilities as is the general public. It would be easy for 
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> doctor
>>>>>>>> to "issue a letter requesting that a student not be required to
>>>>>>>> participate
>>>>>>>> in this or that part of the center program due to these mistaken
>>>>>>>> attitudes
>>>>>>>> and beliefs about the blind. What happens if that same doctor is
>>>>>>>> presented
>>>>>>>> with a health report for a blind individual in their 80s wishing to
>>>>>>>> attend a
>>>>>>>> sports camp where rock climbing is one of the activities offered 
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> patient chooses to participate in that activity. There's the 
>>>>>>>> possibility
>>>>>>>> that the doctor may discourage this person from engaging in rock
>>>>>>>> climbing
>>>>>>>> even though the person is healthy. They can thank the patient who
>>>>>>>> mistakenly
>>>>>>>> believed that older blind individuals shouldn't participate in this
>>>>>>>> activity. Let me recommend that you take some rock climbing lessons 
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>> reread your post.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    I hope I was able to shed some light on this issue for you. All 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> best.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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