[nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
qubit
lauraeaves at yahoo.com
Fri Oct 16 18:47:29 UTC 2009
Hey there John -- you think everyone on the list says is patronizing... Try
looking at another unrelated group, the boy scouts.
They do a huge variety of activities to build character -- maybe we conclude
from this that boys need this in order to grow into productive human
beings...??? Is that patronizing as well? Hmm. The girl scouts in a limited
way do a lot of activities too, but not like the boys. I remember was a
merit badge counselor for several subjects and know it is a good program.
But as you say, a boy can get through life without the growth and friendship
and feeling of accomplishment he would get from boy scouts, but if he
finishes he also has that group of benefits to build on. It's the same for
the blind centers.
Is this a bad analogy? Do the girls need a similar program more like the
boys, or is the boy scout experience a "guy thing"?
--le
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
Peter, I'm pretty sure that, like you, almost everyone on this list is blind
too. I'm not sure about others but your story about struggling with
blindness does not resonate with me in the slightest. In fact, I find it
quite patronizing. I don't need the NFB or Dr. Jernigan or anyone else to
tell me how to deal with my disability. I don't need to climb rocks. I don't
need to be told to chop wood if I want wood for a fire. I just cannot
understand how you can fail to see how patronizing this is. We'd be outraged
if any other group just assumed that all blind people needed to climb rocks
to boost their confidence.
Your personal anecdote aside, there is no evidence that rock climbing is
beneficial. I'm not disputing that you personally may have had some kind of
epiphany on the rock face. But we'll never know what would have happened if
you'd never had that experience. I suspect that you would have been fine
anyway just like thousands of other blind people who have never attended an
NFB center. I have never climbed rocks and I do not have a confidence
problem.
Of all groups to be pre-judging blind people, the last should be the NFB.
But the worst of it probably is that it drives away people who need it the
most. You seem to think the "informed choice" idea is the answer. No, it's
not. It only makes it that much clearer that the NFB is willing to turn it's
back on those who need it the most.
Blind people need job skills and mobility training. They don't need to climb
rocks. You can't put that on a resume. People who can't or won't climb rocks
need job skills and mobility training just as much, if not more, than those
who do climb rocks.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
> Hello Tanna and listers,
>
> An incident occurred during my one and only rock climbing experience
> that brought home the importance of the role of challenge recreation
> activities in a program designed to empower blind youth and adults by
> teaching them a positive philosophy of blindness and the alternative
> techniques used by the blind. After topping the rock during my second
> climb
> it was time to repel back to Earth. On my way down I drifted to the right
> of
> where I should have been when descending the rock face and ended up in a
> tree. I told the ballet I was stuck and asked him how to get down. "Figure
> it out for yourself" he yelled up to me. I needed to figure out why I
> ended
> up in the tree to begin with, and would need to correct the path of my
> descent to the ground. This was no different than figuring out why I got
> lost when on a trip and retracing my course of travel in order to find the
> correct route in order to arrive at my intended destination.
>
> As I lie there on the tree branch harnessed to the rock face with
> nothing but the ballet and the rope holding me my mind drifted back to my
> days at the school for the blind. For a minute I thought of the many
> nights
> I sat in my dorm room with nothing better to do than to think about girls
> at
> other schools for the blind and fantasized about possible relationships
> with
> them never once thinking that this behavior is very destructive and is an
> unproductive way for a blind teen to spend his/her free time and that I
> was
> not likely to be on the agenda of these women. At no time did anyone at
> the
> schools for the blind I attended invite us to engage in challenge
> activities
> such as rock climbing, skydiving,snow and waterskiing,launching rockets,
> and
> participate in the activities today's blind youth now enjoy. No successful
> blind adults came around to mentor us and to serve as roll models to urge
> us
> to persue the wildest of dreams. We didn't have the NOPBC or the NFB to
> insure that blind children and youth received a positive start in life.
>
> For just a minute I lay on that tree branch thinking about all of this.
> After a while I shouted down to the ballet, "This is exactly the kind of
> activity that would have blasted those thoughts about the girls from the
> other schools out of my mind and motivated me to put my life in a more
> positive direction." I eventually got out of the tree and back on the
> ground. I along with the others in our group returned to the convention
> hotel pooped but feeling a sense of pride and accomplishment at having
> tried
> our hand at rock climbing with varying degrees of success.
>
> Dr. Jernigan told the story of some students at the Iowa Commission for
> the Blind's orientation adjustment center who complained that it was
> always
> cold in the building at night and that they wanted to start the fireplace.
> He told them they would need to chop wood in order to have logs for the
> fire
> but put off the trip to the woodlot until one day when it was very cold
> and
> the snow had fallen. Some of the students cut down trees while others
> sawed
> the branches in to logs. All of them helped load up the wood to truck it
> back to the center. That evening those students not only had a fire to
> warm
> themselves by, but they all went to bed exhausted and feeling good about
> themselves having received such a strong boost of confidence and a sense
> of
> accomplishment at having helped gather wood for the fireplace. No one went
> to bed worried about the trials of life and how they as blind individuals
> would cope with them.
>
> Mary and I are staunch supporters of our center programs and the many
> initiatives we have undertaken to involve blind children and teens at an
> early age. These activities need to be a part of our center training
> programs and youth outreach programs to teach blind youth and adults that
> it's okay to be blind. That's the exact reason why activities as rock
> climbing, skydiving, whitewater rafting, camping, canoeing, boating, and
> other high-impact activities are a part of these programs and why students
> are expected to participate in them.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Aldrich" <jajkaldrich at gmail.com>
> To: <tshoyo at neb.rr.com>; "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>
>
> Hello again!
>
> I will simply watch this one! I have nothing further to say about all of
> this! Thanks all for the good info on the various centers.
>
> Jim
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tanna G. Shoyo" <tshoyo at neb.rr.com>
> To: <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>
>
> It sounds like a case of judging a book by it's cover to me. Rock
> climbing
> is a way to boost your confidence in your abilities. Let me pose this
> question: Would you rather take a chance or stand on the side lines and
> wonder what it would have been like to take that chance. I attempted to
> climb a rock wall when I worked with blind youth and a few of my students
> made it to the top and others couldn't get themselves off the ground. I
> commend them because they tried.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>
>
>> Ah the classic "super blindy" generalization people like to make about
>> the
>> NFB. There may be some in the NFB with this attitude, but it doesn't
>> accurately reflect the organization as a whole. If I shouldn't make
>> assumptions like the one I was corrected on earlier, then generalizations
>> like this one should not be allowed to stand, either, in my opinion.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:46 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>
>>
>>> In my opinion, it's just another example of the NFB turning it's back on
>>> the part of the blind community that needs it most. This is exactly
>>> why
>>> the NFB philosophy is so harmful. Rock climbing just isn't for everyone.
>>> You shouldn't have to be super, rock climbing blind guy (or gal) to
>>> receive services from the NFB.
>>>
>>> The NFB philosophy blames the victim. If you aren't making it in this
>>> world, it's your own fault. Get in here and get some climbing in and
>>> everything will be rosy. But I'd like to see some real evidence that
>>> rock climbing makes any difference what so ever. Oh, I have little doubt
>>> that those who go through with the climbing do better than those who
>>> don't. But that's most likely because they're more motivated in the
>>> first
>>> place. Of course people who are willing to climb rocks do better than
>>> those who don't. But what about all those people who are scared away
>>> from
>>> the NFB centers because they have to climb rocks? Doesn't the NFB have a
>>> responsibility to aid those people too? Don't they have an even
>>> *greater*
>>> responsibility to help those people?
>>>
>>> Essentially, the NFB philosophy says we're only going to help people who
>>> don't really need our help that much. We're only going to help people
>>> who
>>> probably would make it on their own anyway. If you're really messed up,
>>> well, too bad for you. If you're not super blind guy (or gal) we're not
>>> interested in helping you.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>> To: "Chad Allen" <chad at chadallenmagic.com>; "NFB Talk Mailing List"
>>> <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:43 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>
>>>
>>>> Good afternoon everyone,
>>>>
>>>> Exactly. Anyone who doesn't want to fulfill this requirement for
>>>> successful completion of training at one of our centers needs to
>>>> rethink
>>>> their choice of orientation and adjustment center. Informed choice
>>>> rules!
>>>>
>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Chad Allen" <chad at chadallenmagic.com>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:03 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is considered a requirement for graduation from the center.
>>>> Everything is
>>>> discussed prior to enrollment and is simply par for the course.
>>>>
>>>> -original message-
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> Date: 10/15/2009 10:31 AM
>>>>
>>>> oh yea,
>>>>
>>>> try getting out of it!
>>>>
>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:44 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> No one is forced. It is, to my knowledge, just an option.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:03 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm unclear as to the purpose of these centers? Do people go to them
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> the opportunity to do things like rock climbing? Because I would
>>>>>> imagine
>>>>>> that if the NFB didn't provide opportunities like that, it would be
>>>>>> very
>>>>>> difficult to find them otherwise. I can't imagine most rock climbing
>>>>>> places letting blind people participate. Heck, one time I tried to
>>>>>> sign
>>>>>> up for a wood working class and they kicked me out when they found
>>>>>> out
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> was blind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But if a person wants to work on his job and mobility skills, he
>>>>>> shouldn't be forced to climb rocks. I wouldn't have a problem with
>>>>>> state
>>>>>> governments supporting recreational facilities for the blind. But if
>>>>>> these centers are intended primarily as rehab centers, then they
>>>>>> shouldn't be forcing people to climb rocks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:17 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello Jim and listers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Okay let me take a stab at this one. I'll insert my comments
>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>> yours and will indicate them with the letter A. Here goes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello all!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do all NFB centers insist that clients rock climb? I'm referring to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> three NFB centers in Minnesota, Colorado, and Louisiana as well as
>>>>>>> centers
>>>>>>> which are a part of a state's rehab program as is the case in Iowa
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Nebraska?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A. Yes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can a client be exempt from this exercise due to health, age or
>>>>>>> other complications?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A.
>>>>>>> Each case is considered on an individual basis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have people been denied services from all of the above
>>>>>>> agencies if they refused to rock climb or they obtained a doctor's
>>>>>>> statement
>>>>>>> that they shouldn't engage in such activity?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A.
>>>>>>> Recall the discussion of informed choice we've had from
>>>>>>> time-to-time.
>>>>>>> These centers have a set curriculum students are required to take
>>>>>>> including
>>>>>>> participation in recreational activities such as rock climbing. Such
>>>>>>> exemptions could be viewed as attempts by center students to
>>>>>>> "Menuize"
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> training. They never realize the full benefit of the program if they
>>>>>>> attempt
>>>>>>> to "Water down" these center curriculums by requesting exemptions
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> or that part of the training. Here again each case is considered on
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>> individual basis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What exempts people from this
>>>>>>> activity and if they are exempt, can they still receive services
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>> NFB agencies?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A.
>>>>>>> Much of my answer can be found above but I'll add here that if a
>>>>>>> student
>>>>>>> chooses not to participate in a class or activity all center
>>>>>>> students
>>>>>>> must
>>>>>>> attend or take part in they should reconsider their choice of
>>>>>>> orientation
>>>>>>> and adjustment center if they're unwilling to participate in the
>>>>>>> entire
>>>>>>> center curriculum.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A friend of mine returned from one of these centers. He has a badly
>>>>>>> sprained leg or he has pulled ligaments in his leg! Needless to
>>>>>>> say,
>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> out of the program or is immobile for an undetermined amount of
>>>>>>> time!
>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>> person was otherwise happy with the program and I commend this
>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> giving it a good try but I think there comes a time when a person my
>>>>>>> age
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> is twice 30 shouldn't attempt such a thing! If I were in my 20s and
>>>>>>> 30s, I
>>>>>>> wouldn't question this but when one is in their late 40s and beyond,
>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>> question whether this is such a good idea!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any thoughts?A.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Our centers have had students in their 80s participate in roc
>>>>>>> climbing,
>>>>>>> skydiving, and other high-impact activities. There are several
>>>>>>> accounts
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> blind senior citizens that attended our centers and participated in
>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>> aspects of their programs and had a darn good time doing so
>>>>>>> published
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>> Braille Monitor. Your friend needs to not allow his accident prevent
>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>> from returning to the NFB center to finish his training. There are
>>>>>>> numerous
>>>>>>> accounts of students who due to accident or illness were unable to
>>>>>>> complete
>>>>>>> the initial part of their training but returned later to finish.
>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>> not be a problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as doctors exemptions go remember that health care
>>>>>>> professionals
>>>>>>> are influanced by the same prevailing attitudes and beliefs about
>>>>>>> blindness
>>>>>>> and our capabilities as is the general public. It would be easy for
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> doctor
>>>>>>> to "issue a letter requesting that a student not be required to
>>>>>>> participate
>>>>>>> in this or that part of the center program due to these mistaken
>>>>>>> attitudes
>>>>>>> and beliefs about the blind. What happens if that same doctor is
>>>>>>> presented
>>>>>>> with a health report for a blind individual in their 80s wishing to
>>>>>>> attend a
>>>>>>> sports camp where rock climbing is one of the activities offered and
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> patient chooses to participate in that activity. There's the
>>>>>>> possibility
>>>>>>> that the doctor may discourage this person from engaging in rock
>>>>>>> climbing
>>>>>>> even though the person is healthy. They can thank the patient who
>>>>>>> mistakenly
>>>>>>> believed that older blind individuals shouldn't participate in this
>>>>>>> activity. Let me recommend that you take some rock climbing lessons
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>> reread your post.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope I was able to shed some light on this issue for you. All
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> best.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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