[nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives

Thu Apr 22 16:40:51 UTC 2010

Ray, you make a good point as there have been times over the years when I 
have been asked by people questions like "Why do I try to work when I can 
get SSI and other benefits?" With a college education and advanced degrees I 
found those questions rather insulting. Unfortunately, while programs like 
SSI are needed I have always felt that they have contributed to the 70% 
unemployment rate of the blind community because they give society an excuse 
not to provide adequate opportunities for blind people to secure gainful 
employment. A prevalent attitude seems to be that because these programs 
exist a hit or miss approach is used to provide full accommodations for 
employment of blind people.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ray Foret jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives


> All I'm asking now is this.  do we blind people have the intestsinal 
> fortitude to frankly face the fact that the SSI check is not the best way 
> for us to get ahead in this society?  If even asking that is a crime in 
> the federation, mark me down as being about as guilty as one can get. 
> Sometimes, the truth hurts, and that fact does not negate the eventual 
> fact that we're going to have to shut down SSI and create something 
> better.  Yes, I'll again speak frankly here.  We need to shut down SSI and 
> social security.  those things punish the blind for trying to work.  I 
> said it last night and I'll say it again.  IF a blind person tries to go 
> to work, they don't make enough money to live, and yet, too much money to 
> get needed help.  How do I know?  It happened to me.  So, with all due 
> respect, don't tell me I know not of what I speak!!!  I'm not saying that 
> those who need help should not get it; but, can we not even be honest with 
> ourselves and each other about the fact that our current set up may not be 
> the best way to cary us in to the future?  IS that too hard to do?  Is 
> that too much to ask?  I said what I said in this message and there's no 
> taking it back.  Even if I wanted to, it's too late.  If we can't even be 
> honest with ourselves about this, what have we come too?
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>
> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>
> E-Mail:
> rforetjr at comcast dot net
> Skype:
> barefootedray
>
> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>
>> Stepping back and examining our points of view makes a lot of sense to me 
>> and it is something I try to do often.
>> Actually, one element of Ray's comments that fits into this notion is 
>> that we do need to look at what we ask of society to
>> figure out what we need as opposed to what we want.  I further believe we 
>> need to think about the cost of what we
>> might request society and what the benefits are to us and to society. 
>> These seem like reasonable questions that should
>> not be seen as conservative or liberal.  Still, if this is even what Ray 
>> is saying, I find it very hard to believe that our
>> overall status, the 70% unemployed for example, is related to a sense of 
>> entitlement.  As we make progress, we do need
>> to be prepared to consider that some benefits of various types are no 
>> longer needed.   However, we have some pretty
>> large obstacles to overcome before we get there.  Labeling us as having a 
>> sense of entitlement that overshadows the
>> other barriers we encounter really does not recognize reality.  To 
>> extreme conservatives and to extreme liberals, life is
>> just a theory.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:04:22 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>>
>>> Its almost impossible to find anyone actually interested in discussing
>>> liberal vs conservative issues in a rational manner. People should
>>> occasionally take a step back and examine their point of view. Far too 
>>> many
>>> people make up their minds and then start casting around for reasons to
>>> believe what they've already decided.  That's a recipe for disaster. 
>>> That's
>>> how mistakes are made.
>>
>>> I am actually planning to write a book about this. I'm thinking of 
>>> calling
>>> it "Recipe For Wrongness". Almost everyone believes in freedom of 
>>> speech.
>>> And most people even understand why its so important. Its not just 
>>> because
>>> we all enjoy it. The reason why freedom of speech is so important is 
>>> that it
>>> allows the best ideas to win out. Ideas can compete against each other 
>>> in a
>>> society with free speech and most of the time, the best idea wins.  Its
>>> called the market place of ideas.
>>
>>> But very few people apply the concept of the market place of ideas to 
>>> their
>>> own opinions.  Its just not even something that occurs to most people to 
>>> do.
>>> Most people make up their minds ahead of time and then start casting 
>>> about
>>> for information to support what they already believe.  And that is a 
>>> recipe
>>> for wrongness.
>>
>>> If you start occasionally sitting back and examining what you believe, 
>>> you
>>> will find its an incredibly valuable tool. It even made me a better 
>>> chess
>>> player. I was in a round-robin chess tournament and lost almost all of 
>>> my
>>> matches until I started sitting back occasionally and trying to get a
>>> realistic overview of the board and my opponent. What are my opponent's
>>> strengths and weaknesses?Does he see any advantages I might not see? Is 
>>> he
>>> missing any vulnerabilities he currently has? What's going on in my
>>> opponent's head? From then on, I won almost every match. It was like 
>>> magic.
>>
>>> The real message in the chess tournament story is not the importance of
>>> trying to look into your opponents mind. The real insight there is how 
>>> few
>>> people do it. Its not just that a lot of people are crummy chess 
>>> players.
>>> Its that it would be so easy to be so much better.
>>
>>> Once you start thinking this way, you see opportunities to use it
>>> everywhere. Instead of just bulling ahead with your political opinions, 
>>> take
>>> a step back occasionally and consider whether they're working or not. Do
>>> they actually make sense? Does history support or dispute my beliefs? Do 
>>> I
>>> believe what I believe because I want to or because of the facts?  If 
>>> more
>>> people did this, they'd be right a lot more often and the world would be 
>>> a
>>> better place.
>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:45 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>
>>> Leftist, liberal, socialist, and progressive as well as conservative and
>>> "right wing" are words.  The fact is that these words have been used to
>>> inflame and are not necessarily true or fair.
>>
>>> In our country today we are seeing a war of words escalate into anger 
>>> and
>>> downright polarization on a scale we have never seen before.  I and 
>>> others
>>> survived the attack at the World Trade Center and Pentagon to see our
>>> potential to grow stronger be negated and even see our resolve 
>>> disintegrate
>>> along party lines.  Folks, it matters not our political leanings.  Knock 
>>> off
>>> the words and find ways to come together.  Stop calling each other names 
>>> and
>>> recognize that we all have a job to do.  In the case of the NFB it is to
>>> promote the security, equality, and opportunity which all blind 
>>> Americans
>>> should have.
>>
>>
>>> Mike Hingson
>>
>>
>>> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
>>> "Speaking with Vision"
>>> Michael Hingson, President
>>> (415) 827-4084
>>> info at michaelhingson.com
>>> www.michaelhingson.com
>>
>>
>>> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:16 AM
>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>
>>> Just being honest.  That's all.
>>
>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>
>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>
>>> E-Mail:
>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>> Skype:
>>> barefootedray
>>
>>> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:39 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>
>>>> I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss this rationally you 
>>>> refrain
>>> from using perjoritives like "leftist" and "socialist". The correct term 
>>> is
>>> "liberal" or "progressive".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret jr" 
>>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:05 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> RyanO,
>>>>>
>>>>> I must publicly applaud you for taking this very long overdue stand 
>>>>> for
>>> us blind conservatives.  Let me be completely frank here, at perhaps 
>>> some
>>> risk to myself.  For much too long now, I have feared that perhaps the
>>> federation was leaning rather too far over to the left.  But why?  It's 
>>> the
>>> entitlement mentality of the SSI check; to put it bluntly.  We poor 
>>> blind
>>> think we can't live without it.  But, the sad truth is, that for many of 
>>> us,
>>> that think is a physical reality.  That is the reason why more of us 
>>> don't
>>> have jobs.  We get punished for trying to start to go to work. When we 
>>> do,
>>> we don't make enough money to live by; and yet, on the other hand, we 
>>> make
>>> too much to receive any help from the socialist security system.  What,
>>> there fore, is the sad result?  The sad result is that too many blind
>>> individuals adopt leftist socialism because they think that government 
>>> will
>>> "look after us".  IF you just stop and consider for a moment what that
>>> really means, you'll see that i
>>>>> t goes directly against the grain of true federationism.  It 
>>>>> personally
>>> hurt me when Joanne Wilson and the rest of us were deceived by the
>>> Republican party in or about 2005 when Secretary Spelling wanted to
>>> dismantle blind rehab.  Frankly, I felt then and feel still that my 
>>> fellow
>>> conservatives were completely wrong on that score.  They seem to hate
>>> political correctness; that is, until it comes to the blind.  That turns 
>>> my
>>> stomach!!!!  It sure doesn't help when any leaders of the federation 
>>> fail to
>>> reach out to conservatives because they feel more comfortable being in 
>>> bed
>>> with the socialist left.  To speak quite candidly, I was sincerely 
>>> hoping
>>> that our fight to get money to convert over to the digital talking book
>>> program would have taught the lesson that we cannot afford to ride the 
>>> back
>>> of the tiger for fear of ending up devoured by it. It seems, however, 
>>> that
>>> this is not so.  Now look, just so I am not misunderstood here, I 
>>> personally
>>> couldn't care whether any individu
>>>>> al in the federation or on this list is a leftist, a socialist, an
>>> extreme right wing person or what ever.  What I do care about is the 
>>> fact
>>> that so long as we do not face up to the fact that we're going to have 
>>> to
>>> figure out a better way to live for ourselves, we'll be looking for that
>>> check every month which is supposed to assure us that we're being looked
>>> after. I'm just wondering when enough is finally going to be enough. 
>>> What I
>>> look forward to in this debate is not accusation after accusation, but
>>> rather, healthy discussion about how we can rid ourselves of the 
>>> entitlement
>>> mentality and move in to something much better for us.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>> Skype:
>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:32 PM, RyanO (by way of David Andrews
>>> <dandrews at visi.com>) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have been asked to circulate the following:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In October, 2008, a fellow Federationist and I were asked to reach 
>>>>>> out
>>> to the McCain campaign in hopes of persuading a representative to come 
>>> speak
>>> at our monthly Denver chapter meeting on the topic of disability issues. 
>>> We
>>> already had a rep from the Obama campaign in the person of one of our
>>> members, who was an official Obama surrogate. After several days of 
>>> phone
>>> tag, I was informed that the McCain camp would not be sending a
>>> representative to speak to us. The reason I was given was because, 
>>> "Obama
>>> was just too far ahead on disability issues."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I and my fellow conservative blind friends were angry and hurt. We 
>>>>>> tried
>>> to give both sides equal time and felt we'd been told that we didn't 
>>> matter.
>>> To that end, I felt I had two options. The first was to quit being a
>>> conservative and jump ship over to the other side. The second option was 
>>> to
>>> get more actively involved and to make our voices heard on all levels.
>>> Anyone who knows me knows that option one was not an option.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To that end, I have created a mailing list called, Brush Fires. It is
>>> primarily for blind conservatives so that we may form a network of
>>> communication and information. Let me stress that everyone is welcome on
>>> this list, no matter what their political stripe may be. In the spirit 
>>> of
>>> the Federation, I believe that healthy debate and discussion fosters a 
>>> more
>>> vibrant society for all of its members.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right now, the list is announce only. If we get big enough, I plan to
>>> turn it into a discussion mailing list. For more information, please 
>>> Email
>>> me at
>>>>>> ryano218 at comcast.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for your time and attention.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> RyanO
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>
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