[nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives

John G. Heim jheim at math.wisc.edu
Thu Apr 22 18:10:31 UTC 2010


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives


> Ray, you make a good point as there have been times over the years when I 
> have been asked by people questions like "Why do I try to work when I can 
> get SSI and other benefits?" With a college education and advanced degrees 
> I found those questions rather insulting. Unfortunately, while programs 
> like SSI are needed I have always felt that they have contributed to the 
> 70% unemployment rate of the blind community because they give society an 
> excuse not to provide adequate opportunities for blind people to secure 
> gainful employment. A prevalent attitude seems to be that because these 
> programs exist a hit or miss approach is used to provide full 
> accommodations for employment of blind people.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ray Foret jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 9:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>
>
>> All I'm asking now is this.  do we blind people have the intestsinal 
>> fortitude to frankly face the fact that the SSI check is not the best way 
>> for us to get ahead in this society?  If even asking that is a crime in 
>> the federation, mark me down as being about as guilty as one can get. 
>> Sometimes, the truth hurts, and that fact does not negate the eventual 
>> fact that we're going to have to shut down SSI and create something 
>> better.  Yes, I'll again speak frankly here.  We need to shut down SSI 
>> and social security.  those things punish the blind for trying to work. 
>> I said it last night and I'll say it again.  IF a blind person tries to 
>> go to work, they don't make enough money to live, and yet, too much money 
>> to get needed help.  How do I know?  It happened to me.  So, with all due 
>> respect, don't tell me I know not of what I speak!!!  I'm not saying that 
>> those who need help should not get it; but, can we not even be honest 
>> with ourselves and each other about the fact that our current set up may 
>> not be the best way to cary us in to the future?  IS that too hard to do? 
>> Is that too much to ask?  I said what I said in this message and there's 
>> no taking it back.  Even if I wanted to, it's too late.  If we can't even 
>> be honest with ourselves about this, what have we come too?
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>
>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>
>> E-Mail:
>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>> Skype:
>> barefootedray
>>
>> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>>
>>> Stepping back and examining our points of view makes a lot of sense to 
>>> me and it is something I try to do often.
>>> Actually, one element of Ray's comments that fits into this notion is 
>>> that we do need to look at what we ask of society to
>>> figure out what we need as opposed to what we want.  I further believe 
>>> we need to think about the cost of what we
>>> might request society and what the benefits are to us and to society. 
>>> These seem like reasonable questions that should
>>> not be seen as conservative or liberal.  Still, if this is even what Ray 
>>> is saying, I find it very hard to believe that our
>>> overall status, the 70% unemployed for example, is related to a sense of 
>>> entitlement.  As we make progress, we do need
>>> to be prepared to consider that some benefits of various types are no 
>>> longer needed.   However, we have some pretty
>>> large obstacles to overcome before we get there.  Labeling us as having 
>>> a sense of entitlement that overshadows the
>>> other barriers we encounter really does not recognize reality.  To 
>>> extreme conservatives and to extreme liberals, life is
>>> just a theory.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>> On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:04:22 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>
>>>> Its almost impossible to find anyone actually interested in discussing
>>>> liberal vs conservative issues in a rational manner. People should
>>>> occasionally take a step back and examine their point of view. Far too 
>>>> many
>>>> people make up their minds and then start casting around for reasons to
>>>> believe what they've already decided.  That's a recipe for disaster. 
>>>> That's
>>>> how mistakes are made.
>>>
>>>> I am actually planning to write a book about this. I'm thinking of 
>>>> calling
>>>> it "Recipe For Wrongness". Almost everyone believes in freedom of 
>>>> speech.
>>>> And most people even understand why its so important. Its not just 
>>>> because
>>>> we all enjoy it. The reason why freedom of speech is so important is 
>>>> that it
>>>> allows the best ideas to win out. Ideas can compete against each other 
>>>> in a
>>>> society with free speech and most of the time, the best idea wins.  Its
>>>> called the market place of ideas.
>>>
>>>> But very few people apply the concept of the market place of ideas to 
>>>> their
>>>> own opinions.  Its just not even something that occurs to most people 
>>>> to do.
>>>> Most people make up their minds ahead of time and then start casting 
>>>> about
>>>> for information to support what they already believe.  And that is a 
>>>> recipe
>>>> for wrongness.
>>>
>>>> If you start occasionally sitting back and examining what you believe, 
>>>> you
>>>> will find its an incredibly valuable tool. It even made me a better 
>>>> chess
>>>> player. I was in a round-robin chess tournament and lost almost all of 
>>>> my
>>>> matches until I started sitting back occasionally and trying to get a
>>>> realistic overview of the board and my opponent. What are my opponent's
>>>> strengths and weaknesses?Does he see any advantages I might not see? Is 
>>>> he
>>>> missing any vulnerabilities he currently has? What's going on in my
>>>> opponent's head? From then on, I won almost every match. It was like 
>>>> magic.
>>>
>>>> The real message in the chess tournament story is not the importance of
>>>> trying to look into your opponents mind. The real insight there is how 
>>>> few
>>>> people do it. Its not just that a lot of people are crummy chess 
>>>> players.
>>>> Its that it would be so easy to be so much better.
>>>
>>>> Once you start thinking this way, you see opportunities to use it
>>>> everywhere. Instead of just bulling ahead with your political opinions, 
>>>> take
>>>> a step back occasionally and consider whether they're working or not. 
>>>> Do
>>>> they actually make sense? Does history support or dispute my beliefs? 
>>>> Do I
>>>> believe what I believe because I want to or because of the facts?  If 
>>>> more
>>>> people did this, they'd be right a lot more often and the world would 
>>>> be a
>>>> better place.
>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:45 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>> Leftist, liberal, socialist, and progressive as well as conservative 
>>>> and
>>>> "right wing" are words.  The fact is that these words have been used to
>>>> inflame and are not necessarily true or fair.
>>>
>>>> In our country today we are seeing a war of words escalate into anger 
>>>> and
>>>> downright polarization on a scale we have never seen before.  I and 
>>>> others
>>>> survived the attack at the World Trade Center and Pentagon to see our
>>>> potential to grow stronger be negated and even see our resolve 
>>>> disintegrate
>>>> along party lines.  Folks, it matters not our political leanings. 
>>>> Knock off
>>>> the words and find ways to come together.  Stop calling each other 
>>>> names and
>>>> recognize that we all have a job to do.  In the case of the NFB it is 
>>>> to
>>>> promote the security, equality, and opportunity which all blind 
>>>> Americans
>>>> should have.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Mike Hingson
>>>
>>>
>>>> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
>>>> "Speaking with Vision"
>>>> Michael Hingson, President
>>>> (415) 827-4084
>>>> info at michaelhingson.com
>>>> www.michaelhingson.com
>>>
>>>
>>>> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>>> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:16 AM
>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>
>>>> Just being honest.  That's all.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>
>>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>
>>>> E-Mail:
>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>> Skype:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>
>>>> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:39 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss this rationally you 
>>>>> refrain
>>>> from using perjoritives like "leftist" and "socialist". The correct 
>>>> term is
>>>> "liberal" or "progressive".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret jr" 
>>>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:05 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> RyanO,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I must publicly applaud you for taking this very long overdue stand 
>>>>>> for
>>>> us blind conservatives.  Let me be completely frank here, at perhaps 
>>>> some
>>>> risk to myself.  For much too long now, I have feared that perhaps the
>>>> federation was leaning rather too far over to the left.  But why?  It's 
>>>> the
>>>> entitlement mentality of the SSI check; to put it bluntly.  We poor 
>>>> blind
>>>> think we can't live without it.  But, the sad truth is, that for many 
>>>> of us,
>>>> that think is a physical reality.  That is the reason why more of us 
>>>> don't
>>>> have jobs.  We get punished for trying to start to go to work. When we 
>>>> do,
>>>> we don't make enough money to live by; and yet, on the other hand, we 
>>>> make
>>>> too much to receive any help from the socialist security system.  What,
>>>> there fore, is the sad result?  The sad result is that too many blind
>>>> individuals adopt leftist socialism because they think that government 
>>>> will
>>>> "look after us".  IF you just stop and consider for a moment what that
>>>> really means, you'll see that i
>>>>>> t goes directly against the grain of true federationism.  It 
>>>>>> personally
>>>> hurt me when Joanne Wilson and the rest of us were deceived by the
>>>> Republican party in or about 2005 when Secretary Spelling wanted to
>>>> dismantle blind rehab.  Frankly, I felt then and feel still that my 
>>>> fellow
>>>> conservatives were completely wrong on that score.  They seem to hate
>>>> political correctness; that is, until it comes to the blind.  That 
>>>> turns my
>>>> stomach!!!!  It sure doesn't help when any leaders of the federation 
>>>> fail to
>>>> reach out to conservatives because they feel more comfortable being in 
>>>> bed
>>>> with the socialist left.  To speak quite candidly, I was sincerely 
>>>> hoping
>>>> that our fight to get money to convert over to the digital talking book
>>>> program would have taught the lesson that we cannot afford to ride the 
>>>> back
>>>> of the tiger for fear of ending up devoured by it. It seems, however, 
>>>> that
>>>> this is not so.  Now look, just so I am not misunderstood here, I 
>>>> personally
>>>> couldn't care whether any individu
>>>>>> al in the federation or on this list is a leftist, a socialist, an
>>>> extreme right wing person or what ever.  What I do care about is the 
>>>> fact
>>>> that so long as we do not face up to the fact that we're going to have 
>>>> to
>>>> figure out a better way to live for ourselves, we'll be looking for 
>>>> that
>>>> check every month which is supposed to assure us that we're being 
>>>> looked
>>>> after. I'm just wondering when enough is finally going to be enough. 
>>>> What I
>>>> look forward to in this debate is not accusation after accusation, but
>>>> rather, healthy discussion about how we can rid ourselves of the 
>>>> entitlement
>>>> mentality and move in to something much better for us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>> Skype:
>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:32 PM, RyanO (by way of David Andrews
>>>> <dandrews at visi.com>) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have been asked to circulate the following:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In October, 2008, a fellow Federationist and I were asked to reach 
>>>>>>> out
>>>> to the McCain campaign in hopes of persuading a representative to come 
>>>> speak
>>>> at our monthly Denver chapter meeting on the topic of disability 
>>>> issues. We
>>>> already had a rep from the Obama campaign in the person of one of our
>>>> members, who was an official Obama surrogate. After several days of 
>>>> phone
>>>> tag, I was informed that the McCain camp would not be sending a
>>>> representative to speak to us. The reason I was given was because, 
>>>> "Obama
>>>> was just too far ahead on disability issues."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I and my fellow conservative blind friends were angry and hurt. We 
>>>>>>> tried
>>>> to give both sides equal time and felt we'd been told that we didn't 
>>>> matter.
>>>> To that end, I felt I had two options. The first was to quit being a
>>>> conservative and jump ship over to the other side. The second option 
>>>> was to
>>>> get more actively involved and to make our voices heard on all levels.
>>>> Anyone who knows me knows that option one was not an option.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To that end, I have created a mailing list called, Brush Fires. It 
>>>>>>> is
>>>> primarily for blind conservatives so that we may form a network of
>>>> communication and information. Let me stress that everyone is welcome 
>>>> on
>>>> this list, no matter what their political stripe may be. In the spirit 
>>>> of
>>>> the Federation, I believe that healthy debate and discussion fosters a 
>>>> more
>>>> vibrant society for all of its members.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right now, the list is announce only. If we get big enough, I plan 
>>>>>>> to
>>>> turn it into a discussion mailing list. For more information, please 
>>>> Email
>>>> me at
>>>>>>> ryano218 at comcast.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you for your time and attention.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> RyanO
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
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