[nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives

[Sarah Baughn]

Because right now, speaking as his girlfriend, he doesn't have the 
resources.  Sorry babe, but these attacks on you are irking me.
Sarah
If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this 
mountain: "Remove hence to yonder place.", and it shall remove, and nothing 
shall be impossible unto you.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives


> First of all, I didn't misrepresent anything. I responded to what you 
> said. If you meant that SSI should be eliminated only after other programs 
> were in place, you should have said that. Don't blame me for your own lack 
> of clarity.
>
> As far as your plan goes, I say go ahead. Get started. Why don't you, Ray 
> Ford, get someone off SSI by paying them to work for you? Or maybe you 
> could set them up in a business of their own. What's stopping you?
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>
>
>> In an effort to meet you half way, I want to reiterate something.  Yes, I 
>> said we need to eliminate SSI and social security.  But, and this is very 
>> important, not before we have other systems in place.  Let me repeat 
>> myself.  Just because I said that does not mean that I believe that we 
>> should not help those who truly need it.  This has been how we are 
>> misrepresented in the press ETC.  Okay.  I'll take one thing you said and 
>> actually agree with you; rare but true.  YOu said, "Let's see the 
>> conservatives come up with some ideas".  Fair enough.  My own idea would 
>> be the establishment of a finatial pool from which money could be drawn 
>> to help the truly needy.  Where would this money come from?  The blind 
>> who are not on SSI or social security would contribute to this fund; 
>> which, would perhaps be held in trust by the NFB.  This would take some 
>> time; but, as funds accumulated, you would begin to be able to slowly 
>> draw off blind people from SSI by providing them jobs through direct
>>  networking.  It would have to start with one blind person who is no 
>> longer on SSI or social security willing to jump start the process.  From 
>> there, it would move to the first person being helped.  That person would 
>> then be able, through the efforts of the first, to obtain a secure 
>> position and then, when he himself is secure, help the third.  Okay, it's 
>> not perfect; but, it's a start isn't it?  Seems our only other choice is 
>> a most unpleasant one.
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>
>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>
>> e-mail:
>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>> skype:
>> barefootedray
>>
>> On Apr 21, 2010, at 8:46 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>
>>> Well, it would probably be worthwhile to discuss whether SSI and SSDI 
>>> represent needs or wants just to get that out of the way. But I don't 
>>> see how anyone could say these programs are not needed. I'd like to see 
>>> conservatives come up with some alternatives. Would they rather have 
>>> blind people begging in the streets?  It seems to me that conservatives 
>>> want to roll the clock back to the bad old days when blind people sold 
>>> pencils on the street corner.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" 
>>> <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 9:50 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>
>>>
>>>> Stepping back and examining our points of view makes a lot of sense to 
>>>> me and it is something I try to do often.
>>>> Actually, one element of Ray's comments that fits into this notion is 
>>>> that we do need to look at what we ask of society to
>>>> figure out what we need as opposed to what we want.  I further believe 
>>>> we need to think about the cost of what we
>>>> might request society and what the benefits are to us and to society. 
>>>> These seem like reasonable questions that should
>>>> not be seen as conservative or liberal.  Still, if this is even what 
>>>> Ray is saying, I find it very hard to believe that our
>>>> overall status, the 70% unemployed for example, is related to a sense 
>>>> of entitlement.  As we make progress, we do need
>>>> to be prepared to consider that some benefits of various types are no 
>>>> longer needed.   However, we have some pretty
>>>> large obstacles to overcome before we get there.  Labeling us as having 
>>>> a sense of entitlement that overshadows the
>>>> other barriers we encounter really does not recognize reality.  To 
>>>> extreme conservatives and to extreme liberals, life is
>>>> just a theory.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:04:22 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Its almost impossible to find anyone actually interested in discussing
>>>>> liberal vs conservative issues in a rational manner. People should
>>>>> occasionally take a step back and examine their point of view. Far too 
>>>>> many
>>>>> people make up their minds and then start casting around for reasons 
>>>>> to
>>>>> believe what they've already decided.  That's a recipe for disaster. 
>>>>> That's
>>>>> how mistakes are made.
>>>>
>>>>> I am actually planning to write a book about this. I'm thinking of 
>>>>> calling
>>>>> it "Recipe For Wrongness". Almost everyone believes in freedom of 
>>>>> speech.
>>>>> And most people even understand why its so important. Its not just 
>>>>> because
>>>>> we all enjoy it. The reason why freedom of speech is so important is 
>>>>> that it
>>>>> allows the best ideas to win out. Ideas can compete against each other 
>>>>> in a
>>>>> society with free speech and most of the time, the best idea wins. 
>>>>> Its
>>>>> called the market place of ideas.
>>>>
>>>>> But very few people apply the concept of the market place of ideas to 
>>>>> their
>>>>> own opinions.  Its just not even something that occurs to most people 
>>>>> to do.
>>>>> Most people make up their minds ahead of time and then start casting 
>>>>> about
>>>>> for information to support what they already believe.  And that is a 
>>>>> recipe
>>>>> for wrongness.
>>>>
>>>>> If you start occasionally sitting back and examining what you believe, 
>>>>> you
>>>>> will find its an incredibly valuable tool. It even made me a better 
>>>>> chess
>>>>> player. I was in a round-robin chess tournament and lost almost all of 
>>>>> my
>>>>> matches until I started sitting back occasionally and trying to get a
>>>>> realistic overview of the board and my opponent. What are my 
>>>>> opponent's
>>>>> strengths and weaknesses?Does he see any advantages I might not see? 
>>>>> Is he
>>>>> missing any vulnerabilities he currently has? What's going on in my
>>>>> opponent's head? From then on, I won almost every match. It was like 
>>>>> magic.
>>>>
>>>>> The real message in the chess tournament story is not the importance 
>>>>> of
>>>>> trying to look into your opponents mind. The real insight there is how 
>>>>> few
>>>>> people do it. Its not just that a lot of people are crummy chess 
>>>>> players.
>>>>> Its that it would be so easy to be so much better.
>>>>
>>>>> Once you start thinking this way, you see opportunities to use it
>>>>> everywhere. Instead of just bulling ahead with your political 
>>>>> opinions, take
>>>>> a step back occasionally and consider whether they're working or not. 
>>>>> Do
>>>>> they actually make sense? Does history support or dispute my beliefs? 
>>>>> Do I
>>>>> believe what I believe because I want to or because of the facts?  If 
>>>>> more
>>>>> people did this, they'd be right a lot more often and the world would 
>>>>> be a
>>>>> better place.
>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hingson" 
>>>>> <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:45 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>> Leftist, liberal, socialist, and progressive as well as conservative 
>>>>> and
>>>>> "right wing" are words.  The fact is that these words have been used 
>>>>> to
>>>>> inflame and are not necessarily true or fair.
>>>>
>>>>> In our country today we are seeing a war of words escalate into anger 
>>>>> and
>>>>> downright polarization on a scale we have never seen before.  I and 
>>>>> others
>>>>> survived the attack at the World Trade Center and Pentagon to see our
>>>>> potential to grow stronger be negated and even see our resolve 
>>>>> disintegrate
>>>>> along party lines.  Folks, it matters not our political leanings. 
>>>>> Knock off
>>>>> the words and find ways to come together.  Stop calling each other 
>>>>> names and
>>>>> recognize that we all have a job to do.  In the case of the NFB it is 
>>>>> to
>>>>> promote the security, equality, and opportunity which all blind 
>>>>> Americans
>>>>> should have.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Mike Hingson
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
>>>>> "Speaking with Vision"
>>>>> Michael Hingson, President
>>>>> (415) 827-4084
>>>>> info at michaelhingson.com
>>>>> www.michaelhingson.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>>>> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>>>> On
>>>>> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:16 AM
>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>
>>>>> Just being honest.  That's all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>
>>>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>
>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>> Skype:
>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:39 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss this rationally you 
>>>>>> refrain
>>>>> from using perjoritives like "leftist" and "socialist". The correct 
>>>>> term is
>>>>> "liberal" or "progressive".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret jr" 
>>>>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:05 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> RyanO,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I must publicly applaud you for taking this very long overdue stand 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>> us blind conservatives.  Let me be completely frank here, at perhaps 
>>>>> some
>>>>> risk to myself.  For much too long now, I have feared that perhaps the
>>>>> federation was leaning rather too far over to the left.  But why? 
>>>>> It's the
>>>>> entitlement mentality of the SSI check; to put it bluntly.  We poor 
>>>>> blind
>>>>> think we can't live without it.  But, the sad truth is, that for many 
>>>>> of us,
>>>>> that think is a physical reality.  That is the reason why more of us 
>>>>> don't
>>>>> have jobs.  We get punished for trying to start to go to work. When we 
>>>>> do,
>>>>> we don't make enough money to live by; and yet, on the other hand, we 
>>>>> make
>>>>> too much to receive any help from the socialist security system. 
>>>>> What,
>>>>> there fore, is the sad result?  The sad result is that too many blind
>>>>> individuals adopt leftist socialism because they think that government 
>>>>> will
>>>>> "look after us".  IF you just stop and consider for a moment what that
>>>>> really means, you'll see that i
>>>>>>> t goes directly against the grain of true federationism.  It 
>>>>>>> personally
>>>>> hurt me when Joanne Wilson and the rest of us were deceived by the
>>>>> Republican party in or about 2005 when Secretary Spelling wanted to
>>>>> dismantle blind rehab.  Frankly, I felt then and feel still that my 
>>>>> fellow
>>>>> conservatives were completely wrong on that score.  They seem to hate
>>>>> political correctness; that is, until it comes to the blind.  That 
>>>>> turns my
>>>>> stomach!!!!  It sure doesn't help when any leaders of the federation 
>>>>> fail to
>>>>> reach out to conservatives because they feel more comfortable being in 
>>>>> bed
>>>>> with the socialist left.  To speak quite candidly, I was sincerely 
>>>>> hoping
>>>>> that our fight to get money to convert over to the digital talking 
>>>>> book
>>>>> program would have taught the lesson that we cannot afford to ride the 
>>>>> back
>>>>> of the tiger for fear of ending up devoured by it. It seems, however, 
>>>>> that
>>>>> this is not so.  Now look, just so I am not misunderstood here, I 
>>>>> personally
>>>>> couldn't care whether any individu
>>>>>>> al in the federation or on this list is a leftist, a socialist, an
>>>>> extreme right wing person or what ever.  What I do care about is the 
>>>>> fact
>>>>> that so long as we do not face up to the fact that we're going to have 
>>>>> to
>>>>> figure out a better way to live for ourselves, we'll be looking for 
>>>>> that
>>>>> check every month which is supposed to assure us that we're being 
>>>>> looked
>>>>> after. I'm just wondering when enough is finally going to be enough. 
>>>>> What I
>>>>> look forward to in this debate is not accusation after accusation, but
>>>>> rather, healthy discussion about how we can rid ourselves of the 
>>>>> entitlement
>>>>> mentality and move in to something much better for us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>> Skype:
>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:32 PM, RyanO (by way of David Andrews
>>>>> <dandrews at visi.com>) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have been asked to circulate the following:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In October, 2008, a fellow Federationist and I were asked to reach 
>>>>>>>> out
>>>>> to the McCain campaign in hopes of persuading a representative to come 
>>>>> speak
>>>>> at our monthly Denver chapter meeting on the topic of disability 
>>>>> issues. We
>>>>> already had a rep from the Obama campaign in the person of one of our
>>>>> members, who was an official Obama surrogate. After several days of 
>>>>> phone
>>>>> tag, I was informed that the McCain camp would not be sending a
>>>>> representative to speak to us. The reason I was given was because, 
>>>>> "Obama
>>>>> was just too far ahead on disability issues."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I and my fellow conservative blind friends were angry and hurt. We 
>>>>>>>> tried
>>>>> to give both sides equal time and felt we'd been told that we didn't 
>>>>> matter.
>>>>> To that end, I felt I had two options. The first was to quit being a
>>>>> conservative and jump ship over to the other side. The second option 
>>>>> was to
>>>>> get more actively involved and to make our voices heard on all levels.
>>>>> Anyone who knows me knows that option one was not an option.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To that end, I have created a mailing list called, Brush Fires. It 
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>> primarily for blind conservatives so that we may form a network of
>>>>> communication and information. Let me stress that everyone is welcome 
>>>>> on
>>>>> this list, no matter what their political stripe may be. In the spirit 
>>>>> of
>>>>> the Federation, I believe that healthy debate and discussion fosters a 
>>>>> more
>>>>> vibrant society for all of its members.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Right now, the list is announce only. If we get big enough, I plan 
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>> turn it into a discussion mailing list. For more information, please 
>>>>> Email
>>>>> me at
>>>>>>>> ryano218 at comcast.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you for your time and attention.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> RyanO
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>
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