[nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
John G. Heim
jheim at math.wisc.edu
Fri Apr 23 18:31:39 UTC 2010
Ray suggested that employed blind people start a fund to get unemployed
blind people off SSI. But I think that if Ray had to contribute to this fund
of his, he'd look at it a little differently. I don't think he'd think it
was such a good idea if he had to put his own money into it.
In my opinion, its irresponsible to volunteer someone else to solve a
problem and not in keeping with the conservative spirit. Besides, Ray has
time, doesn't he? There's more to organizing a program to get people off SSI
than contributing money. He could contribute his time.
There are plenty of NGOs out there dedicated to helping blind people find
and keep jobs that could use some volunteer time. Heck, I run one myself.
When I saw the need for an association of blind technologists, I didn't say
someone should start something like that. No, I went out and started it.
PS: I haven't attacked anybody. You conservatives all seem to have these
firmly held opinions and seem to have no problem expressing them in the most
blunt terms. But if anybody should challenge those opinions, you think its
an attack. Well, its not.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah Baughn" <sarahb006 at comcast.net>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
> Because right now, speaking as his girlfriend, he doesn't have the
> resources. Sorry babe, but these attacks on you are irking me.
> Sarah
> If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this
> mountain: "Remove hence to yonder place.", and it shall remove, and
> nothing shall be impossible unto you.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>
>
>> First of all, I didn't misrepresent anything. I responded to what you
>> said. If you meant that SSI should be eliminated only after other
>> programs were in place, you should have said that. Don't blame me for
>> your own lack of clarity.
>>
>> As far as your plan goes, I say go ahead. Get started. Why don't you, Ray
>> Ford, get someone off SSI by paying them to work for you? Or maybe you
>> could set them up in a business of their own. What's stopping you?
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:14 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>
>>
>>> In an effort to meet you half way, I want to reiterate something. Yes,
>>> I said we need to eliminate SSI and social security. But, and this is
>>> very important, not before we have other systems in place. Let me
>>> repeat myself. Just because I said that does not mean that I believe
>>> that we should not help those who truly need it. This has been how we
>>> are misrepresented in the press ETC. Okay. I'll take one thing you
>>> said and actually agree with you; rare but true. YOu said, "Let's see
>>> the conservatives come up with some ideas". Fair enough. My own idea
>>> would be the establishment of a finatial pool from which money could be
>>> drawn to help the truly needy. Where would this money come from? The
>>> blind who are not on SSI or social security would contribute to this
>>> fund; which, would perhaps be held in trust by the NFB. This would take
>>> some time; but, as funds accumulated, you would begin to be able to
>>> slowly draw off blind people from SSI by providing them jobs through
>>> direct
>>> networking. It would have to start with one blind person who is no
>>> longer on SSI or social security willing to jump start the process.
>>> From there, it would move to the first person being helped. That person
>>> would then be able, through the efforts of the first, to obtain a secure
>>> position and then, when he himself is secure, help the third. Okay,
>>> it's not perfect; but, it's a start isn't it? Seems our only other
>>> choice is a most unpleasant one.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>
>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>
>>> e-mail:
>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>> skype:
>>> barefootedray
>>>
>>> On Apr 21, 2010, at 8:46 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, it would probably be worthwhile to discuss whether SSI and SSDI
>>>> represent needs or wants just to get that out of the way. But I don't
>>>> see how anyone could say these programs are not needed. I'd like to see
>>>> conservatives come up with some alternatives. Would they rather have
>>>> blind people begging in the streets? It seems to me that conservatives
>>>> want to roll the clock back to the bad old days when blind people sold
>>>> pencils on the street corner.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson"
>>>> <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 9:50 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Stepping back and examining our points of view makes a lot of sense to
>>>>> me and it is something I try to do often.
>>>>> Actually, one element of Ray's comments that fits into this notion is
>>>>> that we do need to look at what we ask of society to
>>>>> figure out what we need as opposed to what we want. I further believe
>>>>> we need to think about the cost of what we
>>>>> might request society and what the benefits are to us and to society.
>>>>> These seem like reasonable questions that should
>>>>> not be seen as conservative or liberal. Still, if this is even what
>>>>> Ray is saying, I find it very hard to believe that our
>>>>> overall status, the 70% unemployed for example, is related to a sense
>>>>> of entitlement. As we make progress, we do need
>>>>> to be prepared to consider that some benefits of various types are no
>>>>> longer needed. However, we have some pretty
>>>>> large obstacles to overcome before we get there. Labeling us as
>>>>> having a sense of entitlement that overshadows the
>>>>> other barriers we encounter really does not recognize reality. To
>>>>> extreme conservatives and to extreme liberals, life is
>>>>> just a theory.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:04:22 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Its almost impossible to find anyone actually interested in
>>>>>> discussing
>>>>>> liberal vs conservative issues in a rational manner. People should
>>>>>> occasionally take a step back and examine their point of view. Far
>>>>>> too many
>>>>>> people make up their minds and then start casting around for reasons
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> believe what they've already decided. That's a recipe for disaster.
>>>>>> That's
>>>>>> how mistakes are made.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am actually planning to write a book about this. I'm thinking of
>>>>>> calling
>>>>>> it "Recipe For Wrongness". Almost everyone believes in freedom of
>>>>>> speech.
>>>>>> And most people even understand why its so important. Its not just
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> we all enjoy it. The reason why freedom of speech is so important is
>>>>>> that it
>>>>>> allows the best ideas to win out. Ideas can compete against each
>>>>>> other in a
>>>>>> society with free speech and most of the time, the best idea wins.
>>>>>> Its
>>>>>> called the market place of ideas.
>>>>>
>>>>>> But very few people apply the concept of the market place of ideas to
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> own opinions. Its just not even something that occurs to most people
>>>>>> to do.
>>>>>> Most people make up their minds ahead of time and then start casting
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> for information to support what they already believe. And that is a
>>>>>> recipe
>>>>>> for wrongness.
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you start occasionally sitting back and examining what you
>>>>>> believe, you
>>>>>> will find its an incredibly valuable tool. It even made me a better
>>>>>> chess
>>>>>> player. I was in a round-robin chess tournament and lost almost all
>>>>>> of my
>>>>>> matches until I started sitting back occasionally and trying to get a
>>>>>> realistic overview of the board and my opponent. What are my
>>>>>> opponent's
>>>>>> strengths and weaknesses?Does he see any advantages I might not see?
>>>>>> Is he
>>>>>> missing any vulnerabilities he currently has? What's going on in my
>>>>>> opponent's head? From then on, I won almost every match. It was like
>>>>>> magic.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The real message in the chess tournament story is not the importance
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> trying to look into your opponents mind. The real insight there is
>>>>>> how few
>>>>>> people do it. Its not just that a lot of people are crummy chess
>>>>>> players.
>>>>>> Its that it would be so easy to be so much better.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Once you start thinking this way, you see opportunities to use it
>>>>>> everywhere. Instead of just bulling ahead with your political
>>>>>> opinions, take
>>>>>> a step back occasionally and consider whether they're working or not.
>>>>>> Do
>>>>>> they actually make sense? Does history support or dispute my beliefs?
>>>>>> Do I
>>>>>> believe what I believe because I want to or because of the facts? If
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> people did this, they'd be right a lot more often and the world would
>>>>>> be a
>>>>>> better place.
>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hingson"
>>>>>> <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:45 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>>> Leftist, liberal, socialist, and progressive as well as conservative
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> "right wing" are words. The fact is that these words have been used
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> inflame and are not necessarily true or fair.
>>>>>
>>>>>> In our country today we are seeing a war of words escalate into anger
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> downright polarization on a scale we have never seen before. I and
>>>>>> others
>>>>>> survived the attack at the World Trade Center and Pentagon to see our
>>>>>> potential to grow stronger be negated and even see our resolve
>>>>>> disintegrate
>>>>>> along party lines. Folks, it matters not our political leanings.
>>>>>> Knock off
>>>>>> the words and find ways to come together. Stop calling each other
>>>>>> names and
>>>>>> recognize that we all have a job to do. In the case of the NFB it is
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> promote the security, equality, and opportunity which all blind
>>>>>> Americans
>>>>>> should have.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike Hingson
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
>>>>>> "Speaking with Vision"
>>>>>> Michael Hingson, President
>>>>>> (415) 827-4084
>>>>>> info at michaelhingson.com
>>>>>> www.michaelhingson.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>>>>> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:16 AM
>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just being honest. That's all.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>> Skype:
>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:39 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss this rationally you
>>>>>>> refrain
>>>>>> from using perjoritives like "leftist" and "socialist". The correct
>>>>>> term is
>>>>>> "liberal" or "progressive".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret jr"
>>>>>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:05 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> RyanO,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I must publicly applaud you for taking this very long overdue stand
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>> us blind conservatives. Let me be completely frank here, at perhaps
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> risk to myself. For much too long now, I have feared that perhaps
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> federation was leaning rather too far over to the left. But why?
>>>>>> It's the
>>>>>> entitlement mentality of the SSI check; to put it bluntly. We poor
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> think we can't live without it. But, the sad truth is, that for many
>>>>>> of us,
>>>>>> that think is a physical reality. That is the reason why more of us
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> have jobs. We get punished for trying to start to go to work. When
>>>>>> we do,
>>>>>> we don't make enough money to live by; and yet, on the other hand, we
>>>>>> make
>>>>>> too much to receive any help from the socialist security system.
>>>>>> What,
>>>>>> there fore, is the sad result? The sad result is that too many blind
>>>>>> individuals adopt leftist socialism because they think that
>>>>>> government will
>>>>>> "look after us". IF you just stop and consider for a moment what
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> really means, you'll see that i
>>>>>>>> t goes directly against the grain of true federationism. It
>>>>>>>> personally
>>>>>> hurt me when Joanne Wilson and the rest of us were deceived by the
>>>>>> Republican party in or about 2005 when Secretary Spelling wanted to
>>>>>> dismantle blind rehab. Frankly, I felt then and feel still that my
>>>>>> fellow
>>>>>> conservatives were completely wrong on that score. They seem to hate
>>>>>> political correctness; that is, until it comes to the blind. That
>>>>>> turns my
>>>>>> stomach!!!! It sure doesn't help when any leaders of the federation
>>>>>> fail to
>>>>>> reach out to conservatives because they feel more comfortable being
>>>>>> in bed
>>>>>> with the socialist left. To speak quite candidly, I was sincerely
>>>>>> hoping
>>>>>> that our fight to get money to convert over to the digital talking
>>>>>> book
>>>>>> program would have taught the lesson that we cannot afford to ride
>>>>>> the back
>>>>>> of the tiger for fear of ending up devoured by it. It seems, however,
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> this is not so. Now look, just so I am not misunderstood here, I
>>>>>> personally
>>>>>> couldn't care whether any individu
>>>>>>>> al in the federation or on this list is a leftist, a socialist, an
>>>>>> extreme right wing person or what ever. What I do care about is the
>>>>>> fact
>>>>>> that so long as we do not face up to the fact that we're going to
>>>>>> have to
>>>>>> figure out a better way to live for ourselves, we'll be looking for
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> check every month which is supposed to assure us that we're being
>>>>>> looked
>>>>>> after. I'm just wondering when enough is finally going to be enough.
>>>>>> What I
>>>>>> look forward to in this debate is not accusation after accusation,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> rather, healthy discussion about how we can rid ourselves of the
>>>>>> entitlement
>>>>>> mentality and move in to something much better for us.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>>> Skype:
>>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:32 PM, RyanO (by way of David Andrews
>>>>>> <dandrews at visi.com>) wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have been asked to circulate the following:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In October, 2008, a fellow Federationist and I were asked to reach
>>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>> to the McCain campaign in hopes of persuading a representative to
>>>>>> come speak
>>>>>> at our monthly Denver chapter meeting on the topic of disability
>>>>>> issues. We
>>>>>> already had a rep from the Obama campaign in the person of one of our
>>>>>> members, who was an official Obama surrogate. After several days of
>>>>>> phone
>>>>>> tag, I was informed that the McCain camp would not be sending a
>>>>>> representative to speak to us. The reason I was given was because,
>>>>>> "Obama
>>>>>> was just too far ahead on disability issues."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I and my fellow conservative blind friends were angry and hurt. We
>>>>>>>>> tried
>>>>>> to give both sides equal time and felt we'd been told that we didn't
>>>>>> matter.
>>>>>> To that end, I felt I had two options. The first was to quit being a
>>>>>> conservative and jump ship over to the other side. The second option
>>>>>> was to
>>>>>> get more actively involved and to make our voices heard on all
>>>>>> levels.
>>>>>> Anyone who knows me knows that option one was not an option.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To that end, I have created a mailing list called, Brush Fires. It
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>> primarily for blind conservatives so that we may form a network of
>>>>>> communication and information. Let me stress that everyone is welcome
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> this list, no matter what their political stripe may be. In the
>>>>>> spirit of
>>>>>> the Federation, I believe that healthy debate and discussion fosters
>>>>>> a more
>>>>>> vibrant society for all of its members.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Right now, the list is announce only. If we get big enough, I plan
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>> turn it into a discussion mailing list. For more information, please
>>>>>> Email
>>>>>> me at
>>>>>>>>> ryano218 at comcast.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you for your time and attention.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> RyanO
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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