[nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
Sarah Baughn
sarahb006 at comcast.net
Mon Apr 26 19:15:15 UTC 2010
As a matter of fact, I know Ray well enough to know that if he had enough
financial resources, he would contribute to this fund. Now you're making
assumptions about a person you don't even know, assumptions without any
basis in fact.
Sarah
If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this
mountain: "Remove hence to yonder place.", and it shall remove, and nothing
shall be impossible unto you.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
> Ray suggested that employed blind people start a fund to get unemployed
> blind people off SSI. But I think that if Ray had to contribute to this
> fund of his, he'd look at it a little differently. I don't think he'd
> think it was such a good idea if he had to put his own money into it.
>
> In my opinion, its irresponsible to volunteer someone else to solve a
> problem and not in keeping with the conservative spirit. Besides, Ray has
> time, doesn't he? There's more to organizing a program to get people off
> SSI than contributing money. He could contribute his time.
>
> There are plenty of NGOs out there dedicated to helping blind people find
> and keep jobs that could use some volunteer time. Heck, I run one myself.
> When I saw the need for an association of blind technologists, I didn't
> say someone should start something like that. No, I went out and started
> it.
>
> PS: I haven't attacked anybody. You conservatives all seem to have these
> firmly held opinions and seem to have no problem expressing them in the
> most blunt terms. But if anybody should challenge those opinions, you
> think its an attack. Well, its not.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sarah Baughn" <sarahb006 at comcast.net>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 10:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>
>
>> Because right now, speaking as his girlfriend, he doesn't have the
>> resources. Sorry babe, but these attacks on you are irking me.
>> Sarah
>> If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this
>> mountain: "Remove hence to yonder place.", and it shall remove, and
>> nothing shall be impossible unto you.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:57 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>
>>
>>> First of all, I didn't misrepresent anything. I responded to what you
>>> said. If you meant that SSI should be eliminated only after other
>>> programs were in place, you should have said that. Don't blame me for
>>> your own lack of clarity.
>>>
>>> As far as your plan goes, I say go ahead. Get started. Why don't you,
>>> Ray Ford, get someone off SSI by paying them to work for you? Or maybe
>>> you could set them up in a business of their own. What's stopping you?
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:14 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>
>>>
>>>> In an effort to meet you half way, I want to reiterate something. Yes,
>>>> I said we need to eliminate SSI and social security. But, and this is
>>>> very important, not before we have other systems in place. Let me
>>>> repeat myself. Just because I said that does not mean that I believe
>>>> that we should not help those who truly need it. This has been how we
>>>> are misrepresented in the press ETC. Okay. I'll take one thing you
>>>> said and actually agree with you; rare but true. YOu said, "Let's see
>>>> the conservatives come up with some ideas". Fair enough. My own idea
>>>> would be the establishment of a finatial pool from which money could be
>>>> drawn to help the truly needy. Where would this money come from? The
>>>> blind who are not on SSI or social security would contribute to this
>>>> fund; which, would perhaps be held in trust by the NFB. This would
>>>> take some time; but, as funds accumulated, you would begin to be able
>>>> to slowly draw off blind people from SSI by providing them jobs through
>>>> direct
>>>> networking. It would have to start with one blind person who is no
>>>> longer on SSI or social security willing to jump start the process.
>>>> From there, it would move to the first person being helped. That
>>>> person would then be able, through the efforts of the first, to obtain
>>>> a secure position and then, when he himself is secure, help the third.
>>>> Okay, it's not perfect; but, it's a start isn't it? Seems our only
>>>> other choice is a most unpleasant one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>
>>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>
>>>> e-mail:
>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>> skype:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 21, 2010, at 8:46 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well, it would probably be worthwhile to discuss whether SSI and SSDI
>>>>> represent needs or wants just to get that out of the way. But I don't
>>>>> see how anyone could say these programs are not needed. I'd like to
>>>>> see conservatives come up with some alternatives. Would they rather
>>>>> have blind people begging in the streets? It seems to me that
>>>>> conservatives want to roll the clock back to the bad old days when
>>>>> blind people sold pencils on the street corner.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson"
>>>>> <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 9:50 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Stepping back and examining our points of view makes a lot of sense
>>>>>> to me and it is something I try to do often.
>>>>>> Actually, one element of Ray's comments that fits into this notion is
>>>>>> that we do need to look at what we ask of society to
>>>>>> figure out what we need as opposed to what we want. I further
>>>>>> believe we need to think about the cost of what we
>>>>>> might request society and what the benefits are to us and to society.
>>>>>> These seem like reasonable questions that should
>>>>>> not be seen as conservative or liberal. Still, if this is even what
>>>>>> Ray is saying, I find it very hard to believe that our
>>>>>> overall status, the 70% unemployed for example, is related to a sense
>>>>>> of entitlement. As we make progress, we do need
>>>>>> to be prepared to consider that some benefits of various types are no
>>>>>> longer needed. However, we have some pretty
>>>>>> large obstacles to overcome before we get there. Labeling us as
>>>>>> having a sense of entitlement that overshadows the
>>>>>> other barriers we encounter really does not recognize reality. To
>>>>>> extreme conservatives and to extreme liberals, life is
>>>>>> just a theory.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:04:22 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Its almost impossible to find anyone actually interested in
>>>>>>> discussing
>>>>>>> liberal vs conservative issues in a rational manner. People should
>>>>>>> occasionally take a step back and examine their point of view. Far
>>>>>>> too many
>>>>>>> people make up their minds and then start casting around for reasons
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> believe what they've already decided. That's a recipe for disaster.
>>>>>>> That's
>>>>>>> how mistakes are made.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am actually planning to write a book about this. I'm thinking of
>>>>>>> calling
>>>>>>> it "Recipe For Wrongness". Almost everyone believes in freedom of
>>>>>>> speech.
>>>>>>> And most people even understand why its so important. Its not just
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> we all enjoy it. The reason why freedom of speech is so important is
>>>>>>> that it
>>>>>>> allows the best ideas to win out. Ideas can compete against each
>>>>>>> other in a
>>>>>>> society with free speech and most of the time, the best idea wins.
>>>>>>> Its
>>>>>>> called the market place of ideas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But very few people apply the concept of the market place of ideas
>>>>>>> to their
>>>>>>> own opinions. Its just not even something that occurs to most
>>>>>>> people to do.
>>>>>>> Most people make up their minds ahead of time and then start casting
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> for information to support what they already believe. And that is a
>>>>>>> recipe
>>>>>>> for wrongness.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you start occasionally sitting back and examining what you
>>>>>>> believe, you
>>>>>>> will find its an incredibly valuable tool. It even made me a better
>>>>>>> chess
>>>>>>> player. I was in a round-robin chess tournament and lost almost all
>>>>>>> of my
>>>>>>> matches until I started sitting back occasionally and trying to get
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> realistic overview of the board and my opponent. What are my
>>>>>>> opponent's
>>>>>>> strengths and weaknesses?Does he see any advantages I might not see?
>>>>>>> Is he
>>>>>>> missing any vulnerabilities he currently has? What's going on in my
>>>>>>> opponent's head? From then on, I won almost every match. It was like
>>>>>>> magic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The real message in the chess tournament story is not the importance
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> trying to look into your opponents mind. The real insight there is
>>>>>>> how few
>>>>>>> people do it. Its not just that a lot of people are crummy chess
>>>>>>> players.
>>>>>>> Its that it would be so easy to be so much better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Once you start thinking this way, you see opportunities to use it
>>>>>>> everywhere. Instead of just bulling ahead with your political
>>>>>>> opinions, take
>>>>>>> a step back occasionally and consider whether they're working or
>>>>>>> not. Do
>>>>>>> they actually make sense? Does history support or dispute my
>>>>>>> beliefs? Do I
>>>>>>> believe what I believe because I want to or because of the facts?
>>>>>>> If more
>>>>>>> people did this, they'd be right a lot more often and the world
>>>>>>> would be a
>>>>>>> better place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hingson"
>>>>>>> <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:45 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Leftist, liberal, socialist, and progressive as well as conservative
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> "right wing" are words. The fact is that these words have been used
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> inflame and are not necessarily true or fair.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In our country today we are seeing a war of words escalate into
>>>>>>> anger and
>>>>>>> downright polarization on a scale we have never seen before. I and
>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>> survived the attack at the World Trade Center and Pentagon to see
>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>> potential to grow stronger be negated and even see our resolve
>>>>>>> disintegrate
>>>>>>> along party lines. Folks, it matters not our political leanings.
>>>>>>> Knock off
>>>>>>> the words and find ways to come together. Stop calling each other
>>>>>>> names and
>>>>>>> recognize that we all have a job to do. In the case of the NFB it
>>>>>>> is to
>>>>>>> promote the security, equality, and opportunity which all blind
>>>>>>> Americans
>>>>>>> should have.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike Hingson
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
>>>>>>> "Speaking with Vision"
>>>>>>> Michael Hingson, President
>>>>>>> (415) 827-4084
>>>>>>> info at michaelhingson.com
>>>>>>> www.michaelhingson.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>>>>>> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:16 AM
>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just being honest. That's all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>> Skype:
>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:39 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss this rationally you
>>>>>>>> refrain
>>>>>>> from using perjoritives like "leftist" and "socialist". The correct
>>>>>>> term is
>>>>>>> "liberal" or "progressive".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret jr"
>>>>>>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:05 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> RyanO,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I must publicly applaud you for taking this very long overdue
>>>>>>>>> stand for
>>>>>>> us blind conservatives. Let me be completely frank here, at perhaps
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>> risk to myself. For much too long now, I have feared that perhaps
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> federation was leaning rather too far over to the left. But why?
>>>>>>> It's the
>>>>>>> entitlement mentality of the SSI check; to put it bluntly. We poor
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> think we can't live without it. But, the sad truth is, that for
>>>>>>> many of us,
>>>>>>> that think is a physical reality. That is the reason why more of us
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> have jobs. We get punished for trying to start to go to work. When
>>>>>>> we do,
>>>>>>> we don't make enough money to live by; and yet, on the other hand,
>>>>>>> we make
>>>>>>> too much to receive any help from the socialist security system.
>>>>>>> What,
>>>>>>> there fore, is the sad result? The sad result is that too many
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> individuals adopt leftist socialism because they think that
>>>>>>> government will
>>>>>>> "look after us". IF you just stop and consider for a moment what
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> really means, you'll see that i
>>>>>>>>> t goes directly against the grain of true federationism. It
>>>>>>>>> personally
>>>>>>> hurt me when Joanne Wilson and the rest of us were deceived by the
>>>>>>> Republican party in or about 2005 when Secretary Spelling wanted to
>>>>>>> dismantle blind rehab. Frankly, I felt then and feel still that my
>>>>>>> fellow
>>>>>>> conservatives were completely wrong on that score. They seem to
>>>>>>> hate
>>>>>>> political correctness; that is, until it comes to the blind. That
>>>>>>> turns my
>>>>>>> stomach!!!! It sure doesn't help when any leaders of the federation
>>>>>>> fail to
>>>>>>> reach out to conservatives because they feel more comfortable being
>>>>>>> in bed
>>>>>>> with the socialist left. To speak quite candidly, I was sincerely
>>>>>>> hoping
>>>>>>> that our fight to get money to convert over to the digital talking
>>>>>>> book
>>>>>>> program would have taught the lesson that we cannot afford to ride
>>>>>>> the back
>>>>>>> of the tiger for fear of ending up devoured by it. It seems,
>>>>>>> however, that
>>>>>>> this is not so. Now look, just so I am not misunderstood here, I
>>>>>>> personally
>>>>>>> couldn't care whether any individu
>>>>>>>>> al in the federation or on this list is a leftist, a socialist, an
>>>>>>> extreme right wing person or what ever. What I do care about is the
>>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>> that so long as we do not face up to the fact that we're going to
>>>>>>> have to
>>>>>>> figure out a better way to live for ourselves, we'll be looking for
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> check every month which is supposed to assure us that we're being
>>>>>>> looked
>>>>>>> after. I'm just wondering when enough is finally going to be enough.
>>>>>>> What I
>>>>>>> look forward to in this debate is not accusation after accusation,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> rather, healthy discussion about how we can rid ourselves of the
>>>>>>> entitlement
>>>>>>> mentality and move in to something much better for us.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>>>> Skype:
>>>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:32 PM, RyanO (by way of David Andrews
>>>>>>> <dandrews at visi.com>) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have been asked to circulate the following:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In October, 2008, a fellow Federationist and I were asked to
>>>>>>>>>> reach out
>>>>>>> to the McCain campaign in hopes of persuading a representative to
>>>>>>> come speak
>>>>>>> at our monthly Denver chapter meeting on the topic of disability
>>>>>>> issues. We
>>>>>>> already had a rep from the Obama campaign in the person of one of
>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>> members, who was an official Obama surrogate. After several days of
>>>>>>> phone
>>>>>>> tag, I was informed that the McCain camp would not be sending a
>>>>>>> representative to speak to us. The reason I was given was because,
>>>>>>> "Obama
>>>>>>> was just too far ahead on disability issues."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I and my fellow conservative blind friends were angry and hurt.
>>>>>>>>>> We tried
>>>>>>> to give both sides equal time and felt we'd been told that we didn't
>>>>>>> matter.
>>>>>>> To that end, I felt I had two options. The first was to quit being a
>>>>>>> conservative and jump ship over to the other side. The second option
>>>>>>> was to
>>>>>>> get more actively involved and to make our voices heard on all
>>>>>>> levels.
>>>>>>> Anyone who knows me knows that option one was not an option.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To that end, I have created a mailing list called, Brush Fires.
>>>>>>>>>> It is
>>>>>>> primarily for blind conservatives so that we may form a network of
>>>>>>> communication and information. Let me stress that everyone is
>>>>>>> welcome on
>>>>>>> this list, no matter what their political stripe may be. In the
>>>>>>> spirit of
>>>>>>> the Federation, I believe that healthy debate and discussion fosters
>>>>>>> a more
>>>>>>> vibrant society for all of its members.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Right now, the list is announce only. If we get big enough, I
>>>>>>>>>> plan to
>>>>>>> turn it into a discussion mailing list. For more information, please
>>>>>>> Email
>>>>>>> me at
>>>>>>>>>> ryano218 at comcast.net
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for your time and attention.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> RyanO
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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