[nfb-talk] National Federation of the BlindDefendsRightsofBlind Students

Steve Jacobson steve.jacobson at visi.com
Thu Aug 12 18:04:20 UTC 2010


John,

You make some good arguments here, but this is one of those cases where things sometimes have gotten controversial because people just see the same 
thing differently.  For example, while I have used DVS, I have never had a problem with the concept that it is different than braille or taped books.  Ironically, 
though, at the time, I remember there being some discussion that actually was based upon your arguments as a reason to oppose the regulations at the 
time.  There was a fear that some might make the case that DVS did infringe on freedom of expression, and if there was no differentiation between DVS and 
reproducing books in braille or on tape that loosing that action might be a precedence to not requiring any assistance from publishers to help with alternative 
formats.  As much as we are still fighting with publishers, our relationship to publishers was probably worse then making such a thing more of a threat.  To 
me, requiring DVS is more like requiring that the publishers of a picture book write descriptions of the pictures specifically for us.  Still, I can see the accuracy 
of certain aspects of your argument, too.  There was also expressed that priority should be given to conveying to us that information that was written on the 
screen as that fits more into the mold of alternative formats.

Having said this, I don't really want to argue the point with you now, because a number of things have changed.  The fact that it would be a challenge to a 
law in this case changes the playing field.  Even if we were to decide we didn't like the DVS requirement, I don't know that overturning a law would 
necessarily be in our long-term interest.  Also, the fact is that descriptions are very popular.

Best regards,

Steve

On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 09:35:24 -0500, John Heim wrote:

>Read this:

>http://nfb.org/legacy/bm/bm01/bm0105/bm010506.htm

>One problem I have with his article is comparing DVS to making a symphony 
>accessible to the deaf. In fact, Dr. Maurer's own comments work against him. 
>DVS does not "alter the essence of the experience". That's exactly *why* its 
>not a violation of the artists First Amendment rights. You could make a much 
>stronger case that books on tape alter the experience of reading a book than 
>DVS does for watching a movie.  Other things that would violate the First 
>Amendment by Dr. Maurer's standards would be closed captioning and even 
>braille books. Doesn't reading a book via your sense of touch alter the 
>experience compared to using your sense of sight?  What if an author argued 
>that his book shouldn't be converted to braille or audio tape because it 
>just isn't the same if the reader couldn't see his words?

>But the main problem I have with Dr. Maurer's opinions is regarding this 
>comment,  "We think access to information is essential as a matter of civil 
>rights, but access to entertainment is not."

>Access to entertainment is indeed a civil right. Movie theaters and even 
>porn shops have to be wheelchair accessible. As a lawyer, Dr. Maurer should 
>know that. Its not clear to me whether he is expressing a personal view or a 
>legal principle. But he's going  against 20 years of legal president if he 
>intends that as a legal comment.

>It strikes me as extraordinarily irresponsible for Dr. Maurer to try to turn 
>the clock back like that. If movie theaters didn't have to have wheelchair 
>ramps, it may not alter the course of human history but it certainly would 
>put civil rights for the disable back a long, long way. If he feels that way 
>personally, that disabled people don't have the right to access to 
>entertainment, that's fine with me. But that is not a thing for a person in 
>his position to be arguing. If he feels that way, he should resign as 
>President of the NFB and start an organization called "Turn the Clock Back 
>20 Years" or something like that.

>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 6:57 PM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] National Federation of the BlindDefendsRightsofBlind 
>Students


>>I had read something years ago that the ACB got that put through, but the 
>>NFB got it stopped, but I never confirmed that.
>> But of course the companies are going to fight it
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "John Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 2:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] National Federation of the Blind 
>> DefendsRightsofBlind Students
>>
>>
>>> Did you see that the bill that passed last Thursday authorizes the FCC to 
>>> require a certain number of hours of DVS each week on the 4 major 
>>> networks? There are probably lots of things in that bill that the NFB 
>>> approves of but it sure didn't approve of that.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, the bill also requires that emergency information be 
>>> accessible. The NFB has been fighting for that for years.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 2:20 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] National Federation of the Blind Defends 
>>> RightsofBlind Students
>>>
>>>
>>>> Its the same thing as the cable and dish companies, I guess the market 
>>>> is not big enough for them, We could buy on demand movies and give them 
>>>> more money, but they don't think they can off set the caust I guess.
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 10:26 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] National Federation of the Blind Defends Rights 
>>>> ofBlind Students
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> John,  you'll get no argument from me on any of the points you bring up 
>>>>> in this message for sure.
>>>>>
>>>>> ON this matter, we're exactly on the same page.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> A Very Proud and Happy Mac User!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 10, 2010, at 9:38 AM, John Heim wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, the arguments against what the NFB, ACB, and Justice Department 
>>>>>> have done are laughable.  Critics would have us believe Amazon made 
>>>>>> the Kindle accessible on its own because the free market required it. 
>>>>>> Hmmm.... Nah, I gotta say I don't think so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The closest that argument comes to making sense is the fact that some 
>>>>>> universities  not named in the lawsuit dropped their plans to buy 
>>>>>> kindles because it wasn't accessible. But they did that because of the 
>>>>>> lawsuits. Some universities had the foresight to realize that their 
>>>>>> plans to buy kindles violated anti-discrimination laws and dropped 
>>>>>> their plans before any legal action was taken against them.  The 
>>>>>> University of Wisconsin, where I work, was one of them. But there is 
>>>>>> no reason to believe they'd have done that if the law didn't require 
>>>>>> it.Amazon saw what was happening and fixed their device.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Critics also point to the variety of accessible devices out there like 
>>>>>> the IPhone and IPad saying its evidence that the free market works. 
>>>>>> But its just not true. Apple developed a screen reader because they 
>>>>>> knew that if they didn't have a screen reader, they wouldn't be able 
>>>>>> to sell Macintoshes to schools and universities. I saw this first hand 
>>>>>> at the University of Wisconsin. We started putting Windows machines 
>>>>>> with jaws into the computer labs where there used to be Macs. We 
>>>>>> didn't have any choice. We had to supply computers with screen 
>>>>>> readers. Now, Macs are going back into the libraries and computer labs 
>>>>>> because each Mac comes with a free screen reader.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The key point here is that Amazon and Apple  made their products 
>>>>>> accessible to sell them to schools, not to blind people.  They didn't 
>>>>>> say, "We need to make our products accessible in order to tap into 
>>>>>> that very lucrative blind market." They simply realized they wouldn't 
>>>>>> be able to sell their products to schools unless they were accessible 
>>>>>> and that's because of laws and regulations, not the free market.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The fact is that even schools and universities will ignore the laws 
>>>>>> requiring access unless they are forced to comply. I've seen this too 
>>>>>> first hand at the University of Wisconsin. People want to do the right 
>>>>>> thing but they have budgets and time constraints to deal with. As 
>>>>>> someone who ahs dealt with these issues for many years, I don't 
>>>>>> believe for a second that any university would have stopped its plans 
>>>>>> to buy the Kindle had it not been for the lawsuits.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Freeh,Jessica (by way of David 
>>>>>> Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>)" <JFreeh at nfb.org>
>>>>>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 2:42 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] National Federation of the Blind Defends Rights of 
>>>>>> Blind Students
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CONTACT:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chris Danielsen
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Director of Public Relations
>>>>>>
>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind Defends Rights of Blind Students
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Calls for Equal Access to Information and Technology in America's 
>>>>>> Universities
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (August 9, 2010): The
>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind (NFB) responded
>>>>>> today to recent attacks on the right of blind
>>>>>> students to have equal access to technologies
>>>>>> used by America's universities and to the
>>>>>> textbooks and course materials offered by
>>>>>> institutions of higher learning.  The NFB and the
>>>>>> United States Department of Justice, Civil Rights
>>>>>> Division, have come under attack in recent days
>>>>>> for reaching settlements with universities
>>>>>> requiring that the universities refrain from
>>>>>> purchasing any e-book technology that is not fully accessible to the 
>>>>>> blind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National
>>>>>> Federation of the Blind, said: "Blind students
>>>>>> must have access to the same textbooks and course
>>>>>> materials and the same technology to read them as
>>>>>> all other students.  This is not only a matter of
>>>>>> fairness to blind students but a requirement of
>>>>>> federal law.  For this reason, we applaud the
>>>>>> United States Department of Justice, acting at
>>>>>> our request and pursuant to its mandate to
>>>>>> enforce this nation's disability rights laws, for
>>>>>> reaching landmark settlements with colleges and
>>>>>> universities ensuring that e-book technologies
>>>>>> deployed by these institutions will be accessible
>>>>>> to all their students.  With the announcement of
>>>>>> a new accessible Amazon Kindle, the recent
>>>>>> introduction of the Apple iPad, and the promise
>>>>>> of future accessible e-book products many of
>>>>>> which would not have been made accessible without
>>>>>> our advocacy efforts colleges and universities
>>>>>> will find it increasingly easy to procure e-book
>>>>>> technology that benefits everyone.  These
>>>>>> settlements benefit not only blind students, who
>>>>>> will now have access to the same books at the
>>>>>> same time and at the same price as their sighted
>>>>>> peers, but also institutions of higher learning,
>>>>>> which will no longer incur the administrative
>>>>>> burden of producing or procuring accessible books
>>>>>> through separate and inferior methods.  To the
>>>>>> extent that inaccessible e-book technology
>>>>>> remains a barrier to the equal education of the
>>>>>> blind, however, the National Federation of the
>>>>>> Blind will continue to fight for the educational
>>>>>> and legal rights of blind students, and we will
>>>>>> not hesitate to call upon the Department of
>>>>>> Justice and other government authorities to
>>>>>> assist us in doing so when necessary."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ###
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> About the National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National
>>>>>> Federation of the Blind is the largest and most
>>>>>> influential membership organization of blind
>>>>>> people in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns =
>>>>>> "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
>>>>>> />United States.  The NFB improves blind people's
>>>>>> lives through advocacy, education, research,
>>>>>> technology, and programs encouraging independence
>>>>>> and self-confidence.  It is the leading force in
>>>>>> the blindness field today and the voice of the
>>>>>> nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened
>>>>>> the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan
>>>>>> Institute, the first research and training center
>>>>>> in the United States for the blind led by the blind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>
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