[nfb-talk] Enough already!

Ray Foret Jr rforetjr at att.net
Sat Dec 11 01:53:34 UTC 2010 

And if you see this trend continue, what will you do then?  I would concede that David does have one good point to make.  If you find you cannot remedy the situation in this way, perhaps you should contact Dr. Maurer.  I'm saying this publicly on the list because I want no misunderstanding of my own point of view regarding this matter.  So, let me Tel you this.  IF, in your mind, contacting Dr. Maurer becomes an option, you'll need to be willing to take the time to go through all the list archives and do a lot of cutting and pasting of messages which back up your case.  You will need, in other words, to base your arguments on the facts that you can discover as opposed to your personal feelings about the matter.  A fact based argument is one more likely to win a hearing, if nothing else.


Sincerely, 
The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!

Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!

Skype Name:
barefootedray

On Dec 10, 2010, at 7:26 PM, T. Joseph Carter wrote:

> Ray,
> 
> Probably I should’ve continued to do so, as originally was my intent, for that very reason.  Yet I suspect there will be no change, lest it come in the form of removing the “troublemaker” from the list.  I suspect we both know who that’s going to mean.
> 
> The tyranny of the offended minority, demanding the right to be not offended, while at the same time being profoundly offensive.
> 
> Frankly, the thing that finally did it for me was the comment about how blind people cannot really be expected to manage their own basic home maintenance.  Yes, actually, they can!  We hold sighted people responsible for maintaining safe and sanitary living conditions, even if they cannot do the repairs themselves!
> 
> Yet this entitled little whiner thinks a couple of people deserve a pass because they’re blind?  And how dare we, the National Federation of the Blind, argue otherwise?  What greater offense can one give to the membership of an NFB listserv?
> 
> He deserves to be flamed for such statements, and if our dear moderator would stop protecting him from the anger of those he has offended again and again, he surely would be.  Either he’d learn to cope, learn to stop going out of his way to anger pretty much the entire Federation, or he’d go away.  Any of the above is reasonable as far as I’m concerned.
> 
> Y'know, I never really had a problem with Joe Harcz.  The man is willfully offensive to any federationist, and he knows it.  And he can sure dish it out.  But he can take it as well as he can dish it out.  I’ve gone a few rounds with him.  I’ve been forced to accept a couple of his points as valid, and he’s been forced to accept a couple of mine.
> 
> Now, I don’t regret that he was removed from the NFB lists for the good of everyone, but truly I’d rather have him to deal with, because he’s not going to go crying to the moderator every time someone hurts his feelings.  And to my knowledge, nobody was ever threatened with removal from the list for telling Joe Harcz where to stick it.
> 
> Joseph
> 
> 
> On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 04:56:07PM -0600, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>> Josh, I reckon if we could avoid naming names, we might make more progress here.  This is not a thread which, I think, lends itself to that.  I'm sure Joseph and I would have named names if we felt it necessary.  That's why I have not and will not do so now.
>> 
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>> 
>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>> 
>> Skype Name:
>> barefootedray
>> 
>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 4:45 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi, My teacher in High School did show me different ways to fold my
>>> money, and that's what I do. You and I can discuss this in another
>>> thread. I have something to say on the topic of this thread as well.
>>> I've noticed how us conservatives on this thread are being attacked by
>>> the liberals here. Gloria, you, Ms. Judy, and others have been
>>> attacked because we disagreed with the little implanted chips given to
>>> visually impaired people. That's just one of those instances you were
>>> referring to. Blessings, Joshua
>>> 
>>> On 12/9/10, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
>>>> Well, Josh, my answer to you would not be the  Ibill; instead, I'd advise
>>>> you to just save your money and fold it different ways.  Myself, I'd love to
>>>> have the Ibill.
>>>> 
>>>> Back to the topic though.
>>>> 
>>>> I felt a need to come on here and publically support Joseph because, as
>>>> usual, I can't stand to see a friend stand alone on an issue; especially
>>>> when I feel he or she is right.
>>>> 
>>>> This is one such case.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>> 
>>>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>>> 
>>>> Skype Name:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>> 
>>>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 4:28 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Ray, I agree with you wholeheartedly, although, I disagree with the
>>>>> NFB's stance on accessible currency for the blind. The argument I get
>>>>> from most NFB members is, "well, get the I-Bill," but they don't
>>>>> understand is that it's too expensive for some of us, like myself who
>>>>> are going to college, and having to pay for that. $99 for a little
>>>>> gadget is too much. If they'll lower the price at the next convention
>>>>> that I'll be able to attend, (2012 in Dallas,) I'll buy the I-Bill.
>>>>> But until then, accessible currency is the way to go, (just my humble
>>>>> oppinion.) Blessings, Joshua
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 12/9/10, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>> David, I must agree with Joseph on this point.  I will speak frankly
>>>>>> here.
>>>>>> Why do you tolerate vicious attacks on not only the NFB but on the
>>>>>> members
>>>>>> of this list who hold with that way of thinking, not just because some
>>>>>> federation leader says so, but because of their own personal experience?
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> understand wanting to tolerate healthy and open and honest discussion;
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> David, there are some individuals, (I'm not going to name names because I
>>>>>> believe you know who they are if you have been truly reading the posts
>>>>>> here), who have violently attacked not only me but others who think as I
>>>>>> do.
>>>>>> I have had enough; and, so, I dare say, have those who hold with me.  I'm
>>>>>> not giving out the names of these attackers because I don't feel the need
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> sink this list in to that mire.  If a person honestly does not know the
>>>>>> answer to the reason why an independent blind person says or thinks or
>>>>>> does
>>>>>> something, of course, it goes without  saying that they should feel more
>>>>>> than free to ask.  But Dave, I think we both know that this is not what
>>>>>> Joseph and I are talking about here.  Honest ignorance is one thing.
>>>>>> Attacks are another.  I will not claim to be totally guiltless myself in
>>>>>> this regard, and so, indeed, I may not be.  However, this has truly gone
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> quite long enough.  I'm writing this as an open response so that everyone
>>>>>> may know just exactly how I feel.  Mind you, I can't speak for others
>>>>>> here
>>>>>> directly, (only they can and must), but, I think I know some others here
>>>>>> well enough to be able to make a fairly good guess at how they feel.
>>>>>> This
>>>>>> is supposed to be a list where ideas can be freely shared, and, sans the
>>>>>> personal attacks, (which have become more and more of late), it is.  But,
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> too have noticed that those who defend the NFB positions on certain
>>>>>> matters
>>>>>> are threatened and the attackers defended.  Why is this?  Surely, you
>>>>>> must
>>>>>> know what I'm talking about?  I believe you do.  Tolerance is, in
>>>>>> general,
>>>>>> good, but, there comes a time when enough is enough.  It would appear
>>>>>> that,
>>>>>> (at least with respect to Joseph and myself), our patience has about
>>>>>> reached
>>>>>> it's end.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 2:05 PM, T. Joseph Carter wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> David,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Have you noticed the trend of discussions on this list over the past
>>>>>>> couple of years or so?  I have, and I’ve double-checked the archives to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> sure I wasn’t reading something into it.  The pattern is that every
>>>>>>> large
>>>>>>> discussion seems to involve one group of people arguing for the ability
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the blind, for the NFB, its policies, and its mission.  The other side
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the discussion is generally one person.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The pattern of the discussion is that the individual says something
>>>>>>> incendiary against one of the above, something I have a hard time
>>>>>>> accepting is unintentional at this point.  The group reacts, some with
>>>>>>> distaste, some with disagreement, and some with anger.  This last group
>>>>>>> has taken the bait, if you will.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This is where you come in, because inevitably the individual insists
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> he is “offended” and “baselessly attacked” for his views.  You defend
>>>>>>> him,
>>>>>>> going so far as to threaten to ban longtime regulars and well-respected
>>>>>>> federationists.  The individual takes this as a sign that he may stand
>>>>>>> behind you, and continue to insult not only us few here, but everything
>>>>>>> this organization stands for.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The fact that there is not a single person on this list that does not
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> of whom I speak is evidence in and of itself.  It’s really got to stop.
>>>>>>> Those who would not be flamed should not make a habit of setting fires.
>>>>>>> Having set a few myself over the years, it comes with the territory.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Joseph
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 08, 2010 at 10:19:24PM -0600, David Andrews wrote:
>>>>>>>> This is a personal attack and is totally unacceptable.  You can
>>>>>>>> disagree
>>>>>>>> with someone -- but please stick to facts, not speculation etc.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> David Andrews, Moderator
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> At 03:09 PM 12/6/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I agree Gloria.  He is a very shallow person, and I don't care of his
>>>>>>>>> $250,000 house is paid off or not.  He could rip off Bernie Madoff,
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> biggest cheat in the world, and he wouldn't impress me..smile.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Connie Canode
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
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