[nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?

Buddy Brannan buddy at brannan.name
Sat Jul 17 23:43:48 UTC 2010


I reckon that's just more proof that you can't always trust partial vision? *LOL*
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY



On Jul 17, 2010, at 6:54 PM, Jim wrote:

> I don't know Mike.  That's pretty funny.
> Of course, I still don't think it beat the time my two friends and I were
> walking together at an Austin mall.  One of my friends, the one with "the
> most vision" told us to slow down or stop so as not to run into the other
> blind people coming toward us.  I asked what other blind people because I
> didn't hear any canes or anything.  As hard as he tried avoiding them, we
> couldn't.  We walked a bit, and all of a sudden, he ran into something.  He
> realized what had happened.  He was looking at some sort of mirror or at
> least at our reflections and thought there were three other blind folks
> coming our way.
> He couldn't help but bust a gut and ended up on the floor laughing
> hysterically.  I'm sure passers-by wondered what the heck was happening
> there.  I'm sure the blind folks were noticed after he began laughing
> without control.
> JP
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 3:30 PM
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
> 
> Yeah; it took her a minute to figure out why I was laughing and then she sat
> 
> down on the curb and howled with mirth.
> 
> Mike
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 2:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
> 
> 
>> Mike, bet the lady chuckled, too.
>> 
>> Margo and Arrow
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 2:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>> 
>> 
>>> I once knew a lady who was unfamiliar with my neighborhood and who said 
>>> hello to every lamp post for a block because she wasn't used to them being
> 
>>> so close to the sidewalk! In truth, it *was* funny!
>>> 
>>> Mike
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Mike Bullis" <mabullis at hotmail.com>
>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 8:21 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Not knowing what it was, I hit a bush with my cane the other day as I 
>>>> was
>>>> walking quickly by and said excuse me.  I thought it was funny. 
>>>> Although I
>>>> know that many disagree with me about this, I simply find lots of things
>>>> funny that are politically incorrect or self deprecating.  Humor, 
>>>> perhaps
>>>> sadly, but truly, is very much about the put down.
>>>> Mike
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 11:44 PM
>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>> 
>>>> Ray:
>>>> 
>>>> In any discussion such as this, it's damnably dangerous to generalize
>>>> because almost universally, there are exceptions to any rule. But with
>>>> respect to humor regarding aspects of blindness, I think we must ask
>>>> ourselves *why* we (or our sighted coleagues) find any particular
>>>> blindness-related incident funny. Let me give you an example.
>>>> 
>>>> Many years ago, I remember a commercial for a particular optical company
>>>> touting the need to wear good glasses (this was before lasic) by using a
>>>> skit whereby a mom's kids on a camping trip with her stole her glasses 
>>>> and
>>>> laughed themselves silly when she got up in the morning over how 
>>>> ridiculous
>>>> she looked stumbling about and doing awkward things because she couldn't
>>>> see.
>>>> 
>>>> That commercial burned my posterior because it was pure cruelty for the 
>>>> kids
>>>> 
>>>> to laugh about something the mom couldn't help because she wasn't 
>>>> trained as
>>>> 
>>>> a blind person and had I been her, I'd have tanned their hides. This 
>>>> sort of
>>>> 
>>>> thing is the reason I find almost all slapstick comedy unappealing. It's
>>>> basically cruelty in another guise. And if (as in Mr. Magoo) it gives 
>>>> the
>>>> impression that all vision-impaired persons are like that, it sets us 
>>>> back
>>>> immeasurably.
>>>> 
>>>> But something like forgetting to turn a coffee cup over when getting it 
>>>> out
>>>> of the cupboard and absent-mindedly pouring coffee all over the counter 
>>>> as a
>>>> 
>>>> result -- that's just plain funny because I knew better and had my head 
>>>> in
>>>> the clouds rather than paying attention to what I was doing as I should
>>>> have.
>>>> 
>>>> You see what I'm driving at? Do we laugh over our blindness because it's
>>>> funny or because we are laughing at what we take to be our misfortune.
>>>> 
>>>> What we in NFB bridle at our two assumptions: (a) that others (including
>>>> ourselves) assume that we need help when we may not and (b) that we may
>>>> falsely assume that we can't do something so elect not to try. Every one
> 
>>>> of
>>>> us (including those of us who are sighted) use help when we need it 
>>>> and/or
>>>> when it's convenient for us and others. Where this gets us into trouble 
>>>> is
>>>> when we ask for help so often that people don't think we can do without 
>>>> it.
>>>> 
>>>> But basically, it all comes down to how we view ourselves mediated by 
>>>> our
>>>> view of blindness.
>>>> 
>>>> Mike
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:33 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Ah, well, you see John, here's the thing.  As I see it, I don't think 
>>>>> that
>>>> 
>>>>> the NFB philosophy is looking to diminish blindness itself; rather, as 
>>>>> I
>>>>> understand it, the NFB is trying to make blindness itself a mere 
>>>>> nucence
>>>>> according to the perceptions of both the sighted and blind alike.  We 
>>>>> tend
>>>> 
>>>>> to see ourselves as others see us.  That includes the blind as well. 
>>>>> It's
>>>> 
>>>>> a fact of human nature that when you've got a cause to fight, and the 
>>>>> need
>>>> 
>>>>> for help from others seems to fly in the face of any forward movement 
>>>>> in
>>>>> that cause, there tends to be at least a little personal or 
>>>>> professional
>>>>> embarrassment at the idea of needing help; especially when that need 
>>>>> for
>>>>> help and the taking of it, (how ever badly needed) would even appear to
>>>>> set back the cause for which one is fighting.  I note the most recent
>>>>> issue of "The Braille Monitor" for July 2010.  The "Ask Mrs. Whsoit 
>>>>> column
>>>> 
>>>>> is particularly worth paying attention to.  Why?  Because in that 
>>>>> column,
>>>>> one of the letter writers indicate
>>>>> d that they got the impression that the independent blind in the NFB
>>>>> always would brag about how they could always find their way through
>>>>> airports and never needed help; and therefore, that one was not a true
>>>>> federationist if one either needed or accepted help regardless of how 
>>>>> much
>>>> 
>>>>> that help was actually needed.  Barbara Pierce, in her answer, 
>>>>> indicated
>>>>> that she wondered whether she and the letter writer were reading the 
>>>>> same
>>>>> issues of "The Braille Monitor".  Here, I think the letter writer could
>>>>> have made a stronger case by actually sighting issue and articles.  If 
>>>>> the
>>>> 
>>>>> truth of the matter be known, I too was once under the same impression 
>>>>> as
>>>>> the letter writer.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Now, I'll give you another.  The subject of laughter.  Once, on this 
>>>>> list,
>>>> 
>>>>> I made an attempt to explore this issue in depth but it didn't go very
>>>>> far.  I sighted what I believed at the time to be inconsistencies in 
>>>>> what
>>>>> some leaders in the federation were saying and human reality.  It's 
>>>>> human
>>>>> to laugh at things which are truly funny; even things blindness 
>>>>> related.
>>>>> Some among the federation leadership, (barbara Pierce for example) said
>>>>> things which I took to be the attitude that it was not acceptable for a
>>>>> blind person to laugh at anything blindness related; even if it was
>>>>> genuinely funny.  But this philosophy, if you live and breathe it
>>>>> literally, tends to deny human reality.  What say y'all?
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'm just trying to poke at a few points here to see what we can go 
>>>>> with.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>> 
>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:51 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ah! Actually, you bring up an exciting possibility that never occured 
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> me.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> No, I can't honestly say that I've been arguing that the NFB 
>>>>>> philosophy
>>>>>> should be modified. The trouble is that I've always believed that an
>>>>>> advocacy group cannot be effective when its own philosophy is that the
>>>>>> problem it is organized around is fairly minor. Why bother working for
>>>>>> change when blindness is a mere nuiscance anyway?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You're probably saying, "That's not waht the NFB philosophy means." 
>>>>>> And I
>>>> 
>>>>>> think it should be clear that I know that especially after my
>>>>>> dissertation about how similar  the NFB philosophy is to Lombardi's. 
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> problem, as I see it, is that it is impossible to avoid having the
>>>>>> philosophy to morph into something that blames the victim.  It 
>>>>>> inevitably
>>>> 
>>>>>> will lead to a situation where its a sin to ask for an accomodation, 
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> accomodation.  The only solution I see is to get rid of the philosophy
>>>>>> all together.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Well, that's the only solution I saw until now. Actually, I'm really
>>>>>> excited about the idea you bring up. Can the philosophy be tweaked to
>>>>>> address the problems I have seen? I'll admit I'm very skeptical. But 
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> sure is worth some thought and/or discussion.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Actually, I'd consider it a major victory if someone, anyone, would
>>>>>> acknowledge the problem itself. How can the NFB be effective as an
>>>>>> advocacy group when its own philosophy is that with proper training,
>>>>>> blindness can be reduced to a mere nuiscance? If I were President of 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> NFB (scary thought, I know), I could go on for days about how those 2
>>>>>> ideas are not really contradictory. But as a practical matter, I just 
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> not think they can work together. And you've got to admit that on the
>>>>>> surface, they seem quite at odds.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr" 
>>>>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:34 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Okay John,  So, let me see if I understand you correctly.  What some 
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> us have viewed as your attacks on the NFB philosophy are actually not
>>>>>>> attacks at all; rather, they are attempts on your part to help the 
>>>>>>> NFB
>>>>>>> fulfill and perhaps even improve on its  philosophy?  I want you to
>>>>>>> understand that I do not intend my question as an attack upon you; 
>>>>>>> but,
>>>>>>> instead, I truly want to see if this is where you are going. 
>>>>>>> Because,
>>>>>>> if so, I think we may have the beginnings of a rather forward 
>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>> discussion about a substantive way of moving forward that if we 
>>>>>>> advance
>>>>>>> it to the leadership of the NFB in exactly the right way, we might
>>>>>>> perhaps gain ground not otherwise obtainable.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:02 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I'm impressed with the number of swimmers on this list. Its a good
>>>>>>>> sign, IMO. It says something about the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I may have given the impression that I disapprove of the NFB 
>>>>>>>> philosophy
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> but nothing could be further from the truth. Its very close to my
>>>>>>>> personal philosophy of life which is borrowed from Vince Lombardi.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> A lot of people think Vince Lombardi was the mean old coach who 
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>> do anything to win. No, that was not what he was like at all. His
>>>>>>>> players loved him and still gather to meet each year to honor him. 
>>>>>>>> What
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> he believed was that life's greatest moments come when you meet a
>>>>>>>> challenge and over come it. That's what life is about. That is what 
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> is to be human.  You've got to have the will to win, to be the best 
>>>>>>>> you
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> can be. Strive for perfection, knowing you'll never obtain it but on
>>>>>>>> the way there, you'll find three things. First, you'll do more than 
>>>>>>>> you
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ever thought you could. Second, you'll find the struggle itself can 
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> fun. And third, , when you do succeed, it will be the greatest 
>>>>>>>> feeling
>>>>>>>> you've ever had. So when I went blind, I decided I was going to be 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> best damn blind guy I could be. I learned braille, tried to learn to
>>>>>>>> play the violin, got a guide dog, and got back into running and
>>>>>>>> swimming.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The beauty of Lombardi's philosophy is that whenever you run into
>>>>>>>> adversity, you don't say, "Oh, woe is me. Life is so hard."  Instead
>>>>>>>> the response is , "Well, what are you going to do about it?" You 
>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>> seek out adversity but when it comes, embrace it. Take it on.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Not to create controversy again but like the NFB philosophy, the
>>>>>>>> problem with Vince Lombardi's philosophy is that it is easily 
>>>>>>>> morphed
>>>>>>>> into a mentality of showing contempt for losers. You can't live
>>>>>>>> Lombardi's philosophy and be satisfied -- well ever really since
>>>>>>>> perfection is impossible to obtain. You can always get better. But 
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> everybody has the same strengths and not everyone can win.  And no 
>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>> has any right to tell anyone else how to live their lives.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> anyway, I think you can see the simularity between Lombardi's
>>>>>>>> philosophy of life and the NFB philosophy. I would say, though, that
>>>>>>>> Lombardi's philosophy is a step beyond that of the NFB in that it 
>>>>>>>> gives
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> you a sort of method for carrying it out. The idea of never settling
>>>>>>>> for anything short of success is implied in the NFB philosophy but 
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> spelled out. I think Lombardi's take on the NFB philosophy would 
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> been that the most important thing in life for a blind person is
>>>>>>>> striving to reduce blindness to a mere nuisance.  You may never get
>>>>>>>> there but the most important thing is to never be satisfied until it
>>>>>>>> is.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Johnson"
>>>>>>>> <stevencjohnson at centurytel.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 7:10 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I think it is just cool that you are swimming.  I think the best I
>>>>>>>>> would at
>>>>>>>>> my skill level is circles!  Good for you in wanting to be a
>>>>>>>>> tri-athelete!
>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 11:25 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> If you swim laps and if you have a way to stay on your side of the
>>>>>>>>> lane, I'd
>>>>>>>>> like to hear about it.  I believe most lap pools have the swimmers
>>>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>>>> right like on a road. You swim up the right side of the lane and on
>>>>>>>>> the way
>>>>>>>>> back you come down the other side. The best I've been able to do is
> 
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> swim
>>>>>>>>> with my right arm flailing out so that i can touch the lane divider
> 
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>>> stroke.  That doesn't really work very well.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> It isn't really very helpful to tell me my skills need to improve.
>>>>>>>>> After
>>>>>>>>> all, I already asked for tips on how to improve.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:14 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> A lane for yourself alone?  Why?  Is it your swimming skills that
>>>>>>>>>> vastly need improvement; or, perhaps your blindness skills?
>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:04 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> So you're a swimmer, huh?  Do you ever have to share a lane? If 
>>>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>>>> how do you do it? I have never managed to do that successfully. 
>>>>>>>>>>> Here
>>>>>>>>>>> at the pool at the University of Wisconsin, I call ahead and they
>>>>>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>>>>>> a lane aside for me so I can have it to myself. Its only a minor
>>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice because there are usually several lanes with only one
>>>>>>>>>>> person in them. So when they reserve a lane for me, it only means
>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>> other person has to share a lane.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Have you ever done any open water swimming? I would like to enter
> 
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> triathlon but I don't like swimming tethered to someone else. I 
>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>> can't get comfortable doing that. It effects my breathing and I 
>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>> can't swim normally.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wm. Ritchhart"
>>>>>>>>>>> <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:04 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the new digital talking book player.  I do wish it
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> still smaller and lighter.  With all my swimming gear, lunch,
>>>>>>>>>>>> back-up cane and everything else I have in my gym bag; it is 
>>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>>>> too heavy.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Steve Johnson
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 8:22 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> John, I have not tried one myself yet, so this is good to know.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Steve
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 3:26 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Man, I just got one of those new digital book players from the
>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service.  You might wonder why a computer nerd
>>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>> myself took so long to ask for one of those things. Well, I 
>>>>>>>>>>>> guess
>>>>>>>>>>>> mostly the reason is that I have 2 tape players that I bought
>>>>>>>>>>>> myself
>>>>>>>>>>>> plus the one from NLS. So now I have to use the player from the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS
>>>>>>>>>>>> all of the time.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> But holy cow, is this thing nice. I downloaded a book and put it
> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> a USB thumb drive and was listening to a book amybe 3 minutes 
>>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>> getting started. And navigation within the book is very nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Your tax dollars at work.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> 
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