[nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
Mike Freeman
k7uij at panix.com
Sun Jul 18 03:09:57 UTC 2010
I've seen a guide dog bark at her image in a mirror!
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim" <jp100 at earthlink.net>
To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>I don't know Mike. That's pretty funny.
> Of course, I still don't think it beat the time my two friends and I were
> walking together at an Austin mall. One of my friends, the one with "the
> most vision" told us to slow down or stop so as not to run into the other
> blind people coming toward us. I asked what other blind people because I
> didn't hear any canes or anything. As hard as he tried avoiding them, we
> couldn't. We walked a bit, and all of a sudden, he ran into something.
> He
> realized what had happened. He was looking at some sort of mirror or at
> least at our reflections and thought there were three other blind folks
> coming our way.
> He couldn't help but bust a gut and ended up on the floor laughing
> hysterically. I'm sure passers-by wondered what the heck was happening
> there. I'm sure the blind folks were noticed after he began laughing
> without control.
> JP
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 3:30 PM
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>
> Yeah; it took her a minute to figure out why I was laughing and then she
> sat
>
> down on the curb and howled with mirth.
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 2:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>
>
>> Mike, bet the lady chuckled, too.
>>
>> Margo and Arrow
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 2:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>
>>
>>>I once knew a lady who was unfamiliar with my neighborhood and who said
>>>hello to every lamp post for a block because she wasn't used to them
>>>being
>
>>>so close to the sidewalk! In truth, it *was* funny!
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Mike Bullis" <mabullis at hotmail.com>
>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 8:21 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Not knowing what it was, I hit a bush with my cane the other day as I
>>>> was
>>>> walking quickly by and said excuse me. I thought it was funny.
>>>> Although I
>>>> know that many disagree with me about this, I simply find lots of
>>>> things
>>>> funny that are politically incorrect or self deprecating. Humor,
>>>> perhaps
>>>> sadly, but truly, is very much about the put down.
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 11:44 PM
>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>>
>>>> Ray:
>>>>
>>>> In any discussion such as this, it's damnably dangerous to generalize
>>>> because almost universally, there are exceptions to any rule. But with
>>>> respect to humor regarding aspects of blindness, I think we must ask
>>>> ourselves *why* we (or our sighted coleagues) find any particular
>>>> blindness-related incident funny. Let me give you an example.
>>>>
>>>> Many years ago, I remember a commercial for a particular optical
>>>> company
>>>> touting the need to wear good glasses (this was before lasic) by using
>>>> a
>>>> skit whereby a mom's kids on a camping trip with her stole her glasses
>>>> and
>>>> laughed themselves silly when she got up in the morning over how
>>>> ridiculous
>>>> she looked stumbling about and doing awkward things because she
>>>> couldn't
>>>> see.
>>>>
>>>> That commercial burned my posterior because it was pure cruelty for the
>>>> kids
>>>>
>>>> to laugh about something the mom couldn't help because she wasn't
>>>> trained as
>>>>
>>>> a blind person and had I been her, I'd have tanned their hides. This
>>>> sort of
>>>>
>>>> thing is the reason I find almost all slapstick comedy unappealing.
>>>> It's
>>>> basically cruelty in another guise. And if (as in Mr. Magoo) it gives
>>>> the
>>>> impression that all vision-impaired persons are like that, it sets us
>>>> back
>>>> immeasurably.
>>>>
>>>> But something like forgetting to turn a coffee cup over when getting it
>>>> out
>>>> of the cupboard and absent-mindedly pouring coffee all over the counter
>>>> as a
>>>>
>>>> result -- that's just plain funny because I knew better and had my head
>>>> in
>>>> the clouds rather than paying attention to what I was doing as I should
>>>> have.
>>>>
>>>> You see what I'm driving at? Do we laugh over our blindness because
>>>> it's
>>>> funny or because we are laughing at what we take to be our misfortune.
>>>>
>>>> What we in NFB bridle at our two assumptions: (a) that others
>>>> (including
>>>> ourselves) assume that we need help when we may not and (b) that we may
>>>> falsely assume that we can't do something so elect not to try. Every
>>>> one
>
>>>> of
>>>> us (including those of us who are sighted) use help when we need it
>>>> and/or
>>>> when it's convenient for us and others. Where this gets us into trouble
>>>> is
>>>> when we ask for help so often that people don't think we can do without
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> But basically, it all comes down to how we view ourselves mediated by
>>>> our
>>>> view of blindness.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:33 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Ah, well, you see John, here's the thing. As I see it, I don't think
>>>>> that
>>>>
>>>>> the NFB philosophy is looking to diminish blindness itself; rather, as
>>>>> I
>>>>> understand it, the NFB is trying to make blindness itself a mere
>>>>> nucence
>>>>> according to the perceptions of both the sighted and blind alike. We
>>>>> tend
>>>>
>>>>> to see ourselves as others see us. That includes the blind as well.
>>>>> It's
>>>>
>>>>> a fact of human nature that when you've got a cause to fight, and the
>>>>> need
>>>>
>>>>> for help from others seems to fly in the face of any forward movement
>>>>> in
>>>>> that cause, there tends to be at least a little personal or
>>>>> professional
>>>>> embarrassment at the idea of needing help; especially when that need
>>>>> for
>>>>> help and the taking of it, (how ever badly needed) would even appear
>>>>> to
>>>>> set back the cause for which one is fighting. I note the most recent
>>>>> issue of "The Braille Monitor" for July 2010. The "Ask Mrs. Whsoit
>>>>> column
>>>>
>>>>> is particularly worth paying attention to. Why? Because in that
>>>>> column,
>>>>> one of the letter writers indicate
>>>>> d that they got the impression that the independent blind in the NFB
>>>>> always would brag about how they could always find their way through
>>>>> airports and never needed help; and therefore, that one was not a true
>>>>> federationist if one either needed or accepted help regardless of how
>>>>> much
>>>>
>>>>> that help was actually needed. Barbara Pierce, in her answer,
>>>>> indicated
>>>>> that she wondered whether she and the letter writer were reading the
>>>>> same
>>>>> issues of "The Braille Monitor". Here, I think the letter writer
>>>>> could
>>>>> have made a stronger case by actually sighting issue and articles. If
>>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>> truth of the matter be known, I too was once under the same impression
>>>>> as
>>>>> the letter writer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, I'll give you another. The subject of laughter. Once, on this
>>>>> list,
>>>>
>>>>> I made an attempt to explore this issue in depth but it didn't go very
>>>>> far. I sighted what I believed at the time to be inconsistencies in
>>>>> what
>>>>> some leaders in the federation were saying and human reality. It's
>>>>> human
>>>>> to laugh at things which are truly funny; even things blindness
>>>>> related.
>>>>> Some among the federation leadership, (barbara Pierce for example)
>>>>> said
>>>>> things which I took to be the attitude that it was not acceptable for
>>>>> a
>>>>> blind person to laugh at anything blindness related; even if it was
>>>>> genuinely funny. But this philosophy, if you live and breathe it
>>>>> literally, tends to deny human reality. What say y'all?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm just trying to poke at a few points here to see what we can go
>>>>> with.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:51 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah! Actually, you bring up an exciting possibility that never occured
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, I can't honestly say that I've been arguing that the NFB
>>>>>> philosophy
>>>>>> should be modified. The trouble is that I've always believed that an
>>>>>> advocacy group cannot be effective when its own philosophy is that
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> problem it is organized around is fairly minor. Why bother working
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> change when blindness is a mere nuiscance anyway?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You're probably saying, "That's not waht the NFB philosophy means."
>>>>>> And I
>>>>
>>>>>> think it should be clear that I know that especially after my
>>>>>> dissertation about how similar the NFB philosophy is to Lombardi's.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> problem, as I see it, is that it is impossible to avoid having the
>>>>>> philosophy to morph into something that blames the victim. It
>>>>>> inevitably
>>>>
>>>>>> will lead to a situation where its a sin to ask for an accomodation,
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> accomodation. The only solution I see is to get rid of the
>>>>>> philosophy
>>>>>> all together.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, that's the only solution I saw until now. Actually, I'm really
>>>>>> excited about the idea you bring up. Can the philosophy be tweaked to
>>>>>> address the problems I have seen? I'll admit I'm very skeptical. But
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> sure is worth some thought and/or discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, I'd consider it a major victory if someone, anyone, would
>>>>>> acknowledge the problem itself. How can the NFB be effective as an
>>>>>> advocacy group when its own philosophy is that with proper training,
>>>>>> blindness can be reduced to a mere nuiscance? If I were President of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> NFB (scary thought, I know), I could go on for days about how those 2
>>>>>> ideas are not really contradictory. But as a practical matter, I just
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> not think they can work together. And you've got to admit that on the
>>>>>> surface, they seem quite at odds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr"
>>>>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:34 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Okay John, So, let me see if I understand you correctly. What some
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> us have viewed as your attacks on the NFB philosophy are actually
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> attacks at all; rather, they are attempts on your part to help the
>>>>>>> NFB
>>>>>>> fulfill and perhaps even improve on its philosophy? I want you to
>>>>>>> understand that I do not intend my question as an attack upon you;
>>>>>>> but,
>>>>>>> instead, I truly want to see if this is where you are going.
>>>>>>> Because,
>>>>>>> if so, I think we may have the beginnings of a rather forward
>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>> discussion about a substantive way of moving forward that if we
>>>>>>> advance
>>>>>>> it to the leadership of the NFB in exactly the right way, we might
>>>>>>> perhaps gain ground not otherwise obtainable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:02 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm impressed with the number of swimmers on this list. Its a good
>>>>>>>> sign, IMO. It says something about the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I may have given the impression that I disapprove of the NFB
>>>>>>>> philosophy
>>>>
>>>>>>>> but nothing could be further from the truth. Its very close to my
>>>>>>>> personal philosophy of life which is borrowed from Vince Lombardi.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A lot of people think Vince Lombardi was the mean old coach who
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>> do anything to win. No, that was not what he was like at all. His
>>>>>>>> players loved him and still gather to meet each year to honor him.
>>>>>>>> What
>>>>
>>>>>>>> he believed was that life's greatest moments come when you meet a
>>>>>>>> challenge and over come it. That's what life is about. That is what
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> is to be human. You've got to have the will to win, to be the best
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>
>>>>>>>> can be. Strive for perfection, knowing you'll never obtain it but
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> the way there, you'll find three things. First, you'll do more than
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>
>>>>>>>> ever thought you could. Second, you'll find the struggle itself can
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> fun. And third, , when you do succeed, it will be the greatest
>>>>>>>> feeling
>>>>>>>> you've ever had. So when I went blind, I decided I was going to be
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> best damn blind guy I could be. I learned braille, tried to learn
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> play the violin, got a guide dog, and got back into running and
>>>>>>>> swimming.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The beauty of Lombardi's philosophy is that whenever you run into
>>>>>>>> adversity, you don't say, "Oh, woe is me. Life is so hard."
>>>>>>>> Instead
>>>>>>>> the response is , "Well, what are you going to do about it?" You
>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>> seek out adversity but when it comes, embrace it. Take it on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not to create controversy again but like the NFB philosophy, the
>>>>>>>> problem with Vince Lombardi's philosophy is that it is easily
>>>>>>>> morphed
>>>>>>>> into a mentality of showing contempt for losers. You can't live
>>>>>>>> Lombardi's philosophy and be satisfied -- well ever really since
>>>>>>>> perfection is impossible to obtain. You can always get better. But
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> everybody has the same strengths and not everyone can win. And no
>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>> has any right to tell anyone else how to live their lives.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> anyway, I think you can see the simularity between Lombardi's
>>>>>>>> philosophy of life and the NFB philosophy. I would say, though,
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> Lombardi's philosophy is a step beyond that of the NFB in that it
>>>>>>>> gives
>>>>
>>>>>>>> you a sort of method for carrying it out. The idea of never
>>>>>>>> settling
>>>>>>>> for anything short of success is implied in the NFB philosophy but
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> spelled out. I think Lombardi's take on the NFB philosophy would
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> been that the most important thing in life for a blind person is
>>>>>>>> striving to reduce blindness to a mere nuisance. You may never get
>>>>>>>> there but the most important thing is to never be satisfied until
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> is.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Johnson"
>>>>>>>> <stevencjohnson at centurytel.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 7:10 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think it is just cool that you are swimming. I think the best I
>>>>>>>>> would at
>>>>>>>>> my skill level is circles! Good for you in wanting to be a
>>>>>>>>> tri-athelete!
>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 11:25 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you swim laps and if you have a way to stay on your side of the
>>>>>>>>> lane, I'd
>>>>>>>>> like to hear about it. I believe most lap pools have the swimmers
>>>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>>>> right like on a road. You swim up the right side of the lane and
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> the way
>>>>>>>>> back you come down the other side. The best I've been able to do
>>>>>>>>> is
>
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> swim
>>>>>>>>> with my right arm flailing out so that i can touch the lane
>>>>>>>>> divider
>
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>>> stroke. That doesn't really work very well.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It isn't really very helpful to tell me my skills need to improve.
>>>>>>>>> After
>>>>>>>>> all, I already asked for tips on how to improve.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:14 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A lane for yourself alone? Why? Is it your swimming skills that
>>>>>>>>>> vastly need improvement; or, perhaps your blindness skills?
>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:04 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So you're a swimmer, huh? Do you ever have to share a lane? If
>>>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>>>> how do you do it? I have never managed to do that successfully.
>>>>>>>>>>> Here
>>>>>>>>>>> at the pool at the University of Wisconsin, I call ahead and
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>>>>>> a lane aside for me so I can have it to myself. Its only a minor
>>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice because there are usually several lanes with only one
>>>>>>>>>>> person in them. So when they reserve a lane for me, it only
>>>>>>>>>>> means
>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>> other person has to share a lane.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Have you ever done any open water swimming? I would like to
>>>>>>>>>>> enter
>
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> triathlon but I don't like swimming tethered to someone else. I
>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>> can't get comfortable doing that. It effects my breathing and I
>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>> can't swim normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wm. Ritchhart"
>>>>>>>>>>> <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:04 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the new digital talking book player. I do wish
>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> still smaller and lighter. With all my swimming gear, lunch,
>>>>>>>>>>>> back-up cane and everything else I have in my gym bag; it is
>>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>>>> too heavy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Steve Johnson
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 8:22 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> John, I have not tried one myself yet, so this is good to know.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Steve
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 3:26 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Man, I just got one of those new digital book players from the
>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service. You might wonder why a computer nerd
>>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>> myself took so long to ask for one of those things. Well, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> guess
>>>>>>>>>>>> mostly the reason is that I have 2 tape players that I bought
>>>>>>>>>>>> myself
>>>>>>>>>>>> plus the one from NLS. So now I have to use the player from the
>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS
>>>>>>>>>>>> all of the time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But holy cow, is this thing nice. I downloaded a book and put
>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> a USB thumb drive and was listening to a book amybe 3 minutes
>>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>> getting started. And navigation within the book is very nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Your tax dollars at work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>
>>>
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