[nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals

Wed May 26 23:39:14 UTC 2010

Of course he wants to replace our values with his!  You and Dewey 
have been sucked in, Jim. I support honest debate, but you might just 
as well be trying to reason with a cantaloupe.

Joseph

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 04:09:48PM -0600, Jim Marks wrote:
>Many of us share the belief and practice that we should set personal goals
>for ourselves that stretch our actions and thoughts.  Aiming high works well
>as a tool for improving ourselves.  The NFB helps this process out by the
>power of collective action and philosophy.  Of course the NFB has values,
>the kinds of values that help us break away from dysfunctional behaviors and
>attitudes.  To do otherwise would be to permit ourselves and the NFB to aim
>merely for mediocrity.  Ethically, the NFB must aim high so that all of us
>up and down the continuum of functioning as a blind person can have a decent
>chance at doing better in whatever it is we choose to do as individuals.
>
>John, I can't resist this.  On one hand, you say that the NFB should have no
>values.  On the other, you say the NFB should speak for those who don't
>share its values.  Putting the obvious contradiction aside, aren't you
>really trying to replace one set of values for another?
>
>Also, even if you were to object to aiming high, which you say you do not,
>can't you see that aiming high serves everyone who is blind no matter where
>their abilities stand?  After all, none of us have arrived at a state of
>total independence.  To break the chains that hold us back, we are all
>learning and growing.  The NFB does more to help those who are stuck than
>any other organization out there.  It's kind of the point behind the NFB.
>If the NFB dumped its values, then it would stand for nothing and have no
>reason to exist except to argue only for environmental access.  That would
>be horribly dysfunctional since function is rooted on the combination of
>environmental access and personal development.  We have to believe that it's
>OK to be blind and that the alternate techniques of the blind are what sets
>the blind free just as much as we believe that we have a right to access
>information on equal footing with the rest of society.  We must work both
>ends, and that's what the NFB does.
>
>
>
>-----
>Jim Marks
>blind.grizzly at gmail.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of John G. Heim
>Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 10:17 AM
>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals
>
>Super Blind Guy is my term for the person the NFB wants you to be.  This is
>the guy for whom blindness has become a mere nuisance.
>
>Its truely ironic that I am being criticized on this list for not being
>Super Blind Guy. Earlier this month, I was thuroughly trashed on the acb-l
>list for insisting that everyone should try to be Super Blind Guy. IMO, that
>
>is the goal every blind person should set. But I don't think that should be
>an official policy of the NFB because they have no right to tell people how
>to be blind.
>
>Nobody has a right to tell anyone else how to deal with their disability.  I
>
>happen to agree that with proper training blindness can be reduced to a mere
>
>nuisance. But I bristle at the NFB telling me that I should feel that way.
>That's a personal value that nobody has a right to determine on my behalf.
>I happen to agree with that value judgement but I would never tell anyone
>that they have to share my values. I think they should share them but that
>decision *must* be left up to the individual.
>
>The NFB has an ethical responsibility to represent those who do not share
>its values.  In fact, the NFB should not even *have* values. The NFB is not
>a church or a religious organization. It should not be dictating values.
>That is inappropriate and unethical.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jim Marks" <blind.grizzly at gmail.com>
>To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:48 AM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals
>
>
>> It's OK to be blind.  And it's sure a lot more functional to develop solid
>> blindness skills.  Blind people can either fix our environments or we can
>> learn how to be good at being blind.  Most of us blend the two options for
>> the best effect.  APS give us information about our environment.  They
>> don't
>> affect the alternative techniques of blindness, though.
>>
>> What does this common sense approach have to do with blaming the victim
>> and
>> being super blind?  Also, what does being super blind mean?  Aren't we
>> talking about function here?  I thought the re-print of the speech was
>> pretty good stuff.  When I read it, I thought that we are starting to turn
>
>> a
>> corner to a better understanding of APS.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----
>> Jim Marks
>> blind.grizzly at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 7:16 AM
>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian
>> signals
>>
>> My mobility skills are not at issue here. The fact is that not everyone
>> has
>> perfect mobility skills and everyone can make a mistake. I've already
>> posted
>>
>> a link to an article about the ways that audible walk signals help blind
>> people deal with confusing and difficult situations.  Did you read that
>> article?
>>
>> In fact, my mobility skills are just fine. But that's not the point. I
>> have
>> had access to some of the best mobility training in the world via the
>> Wisconsin Council of the Blind and Guide dogs for the Blind. But not
>> everyone has that access. And even if they do, everyone makes mistakes.
>> Audible walk signlas help blind people avoid mistakes.
>>
>> Actually, I'm glad you brought this up. Blaming the blind person for their
>> problems is not a solution. But all too often, that is exactly what the
>> NFB
>> does.  Its a direct result of the NFB philosophy that blindness can be
>> reduced to a mere nuiscance. Well, that may or may not even be true. But
>> the
>>
>> main problem with it is that it inevitably results in blaming the victim.
>> If
>>
>> you can't cross a street without audible walk signals, that's your
>> problem.
>> If you're not Super Blind Guy (or Gal), the NFB has no use for you.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 7:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian
>> signals
>>
>>
>> Maybe you should get some travel training, I don't like them because when
>> the dam things are makeing all the raket, I can't hear the traffic.
>> This is a fact of life, people don't always stop for a red light, I want
>> to
>> be able to hear them.
>> Maybe someone on the list can explain to you how blind people are able to
>> tell when the light is ready for you to cross.
>> These things are where sighted people get there negative stereotypes from.
>> They think that we can't do anything for our selves, like open a door,
>> cross
>> the street, find a seat, carry our food, take care of our kids, and much
>> more.
>> Its guys like you that hold us back.
>> That's just one reason that they wont hire us, they think we can't do
>> anything.
>> I know someone else like you, he wont even go to the store or to the bank
>> by
>> him self, and he knows how to, but wants everyone to know that blind
>> people
>> are stupid and helpless.
>> Maybe you should get rehab to send you to one of the NFB training centers.
>> I whent to the Colorado center myself, they are good, I'm not shore about
>> the other 2, but I'm shore they are good as well.
>> They can show you how to tell when the light changes, and when and how to
>> cross the street
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian
>> signals
>>
>>
>> Yes, of course I need audible walk signals.
>>
>> I hope you're not trying to imply that I shouldn't need audible walk
>> signals. By that logic, visible walk signals are also unnecessary. That
>> would imply that cities all over the globe have wasted millions of dollars
>> installing visible walk signals for sighted people.  If you don't believe
>> that visible walk signals help sighted people cross streets more safely,
>> you
>> should contact the traffic engineers in your city and they will set you
>> straight. Just as visible signals help sighted people cross streets more
>> safely, audible signals help blind pedestrians cross streets more safely.
>>
>> Here is a link to some information about audible walk signals helping
>> blind
>> people cross streets more safely:
>> http://www.apsguide.org/appendix_c_research.cfm
>>
>> If you have any reason to believe that audible signals do not help blind
>> pedestrians cross the street more safely, I would like to see it.  It
>> certainly seems counter-intuitive to say that audible signals would not
>> make
>> blind pedestrians safer. If you're going to say that, you are obligated to
>> provide some evidence.  The NFB should not be organizing protests against
>> something that by all appearances would make blind pedestrians safer
>> unless
>> they have some compelling reason to believe it doesn't work.
>>
>> Otherwise, the NFB should stop playing games with the lives of blind
>> pedestrians.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian
>> signals
>>
>>
>> Why do you think the NFB  should change its stance?
>> Do you need them?
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 9:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian
>> signals
>>
>>
>> As recently as 2003, the NFB organized protests against audible  walk
>> signals:
>> http://nfb.org/legacy/bm/bm03/bm0301/bm030103.htm
>>
>> Personally, I feel there is no more important issue on which the NFB needs
>> to change its stance. This is about as wrong-headed as an organization can
>> be.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>; "Florida Association of
>> Guide Dog Users" <flagdu at nfbnet.org>; "NAGDU Mailing List,the National
>> Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>; "NFB Florida"
>> <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>; "NFB of Florida parents" <fopbc at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: "Dianne Ketts" <dianne at ketts.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 8:20 AM
>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals
>>
>>
>> The FCB is streaming their convention and I am currently listening to a
>> speech by an O & M instructor, Dianne Ketts, who happens to work for the
>> Lighthouse of Central Florida. I know Dianne personally and find her to be
>
>> a
>> very progressive-thinking O & M instructor. She is explaining the various
>> kinds of Pedestrian signals, traffic lights and the use of audible
>> pedestrian signals. She particularly emphasizes that you need proper O & M
>> techniques and training whether or not the audible indications exists,
>> saying that the audible signal only indicates that the walk signal is
>> showing, not that it is safe to cross the street. I find her outlook
>> refreshing and the lecture fascinating.  It is interesting to learn how
>> the
>> various lights are actuated as well as how the audible pedestrian signals
>> work. I think it would be of great use to have an explanation of these
>> various signals and the technology regarding APS'S AT A FUTURE NFBF
>> CONVENTION AND EVEN POSSIBLY AT AN NFB national convention. I really
>> believe
>> with traffic patterns changing, with more and more cars on our roadways,
>> this information is useful for us to know. She says, for example, that
>> whether there is an APS or not, there are some intersections where it is
>> imperative for people to find the push-button. Really interesting!
>>
>> Sherri
>>
>>
>> Sherri Brun, NFBF Secretary and NewslineR Coordinator
>> E-mail:  flmom2006 at gmail.com
>> http://www.nfbnewslineonline.org
>> http://www.nfbflorida.org
>>
>> "Don't give up something you want forever for something you want only for
>> now!"
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfb-talk mailing list
>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfb-talk mailing list
>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfb-talk mailing list
>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfb-talk mailing list
>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfb-talk mailing list
>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfb-talk mailing list
>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfb-talk mailing list
>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>nfb-talk mailing list
>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>nfb-talk mailing list
>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org