[nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals

Thu May 27 04:26:43 UTC 2010

Hi Joseph,

Convincing John is not why I replied.  Sometimes it's good to take the time
to respond to posts like John's for the sake of others reading the list.
I'm done now, though, except to say that discussion of ideas is always on
target while personal jabs are rarely useful or kind.  As someone who has
been sucked in on too many previous occasions to count, I sure get the
frustration just the same.

-----
Jim Marks
blind.grizzly at gmail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 5:39 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals

Of course he wants to replace our values with his!  You and Dewey 
have been sucked in, Jim. I support honest debate, but you might just 
as well be trying to reason with a cantaloupe.

Joseph

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 04:09:48PM -0600, Jim Marks wrote:
>Many of us share the belief and practice that we should set personal goals
>for ourselves that stretch our actions and thoughts.  Aiming high works
well
>as a tool for improving ourselves.  The NFB helps this process out by the
>power of collective action and philosophy.  Of course the NFB has values,
>the kinds of values that help us break away from dysfunctional behaviors
and
>attitudes.  To do otherwise would be to permit ourselves and the NFB to aim
>merely for mediocrity.  Ethically, the NFB must aim high so that all of us
>up and down the continuum of functioning as a blind person can have a
decent
>chance at doing better in whatever it is we choose to do as individuals.
>
>John, I can't resist this.  On one hand, you say that the NFB should have
no
>values.  On the other, you say the NFB should speak for those who don't
>share its values.  Putting the obvious contradiction aside, aren't you
>really trying to replace one set of values for another?
>
>Also, even if you were to object to aiming high, which you say you do not,
>can't you see that aiming high serves everyone who is blind no matter where
>their abilities stand?  After all, none of us have arrived at a state of
>total independence.  To break the chains that hold us back, we are all
>learning and growing.  The NFB does more to help those who are stuck than
>any other organization out there.  It's kind of the point behind the NFB.
>If the NFB dumped its values, then it would stand for nothing and have no
>reason to exist except to argue only for environmental access.  That would
>be horribly dysfunctional since function is rooted on the combination of
>environmental access and personal development.  We have to believe that
it's
>OK to be blind and that the alternate techniques of the blind are what sets
>the blind free just as much as we believe that we have a right to access
>information on equal footing with the rest of society.  We must work both
>ends, and that's what the NFB does.
>
>
>
>-----
>Jim Marks
>blind.grizzly at gmail.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of John G. Heim
>Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 10:17 AM
>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian
signals
>
>Super Blind Guy is my term for the person the NFB wants you to be.  This is
>the guy for whom blindness has become a mere nuisance.
>
>Its truely ironic that I am being criticized on this list for not being
>Super Blind Guy. Earlier this month, I was thuroughly trashed on the acb-l
>list for insisting that everyone should try to be Super Blind Guy. IMO,
that
>
>is the goal every blind person should set. But I don't think that should be
>an official policy of the NFB because they have no right to tell people how
>to be blind.
>
>Nobody has a right to tell anyone else how to deal with their disability.
I
>
>happen to agree that with proper training blindness can be reduced to a
mere
>
>nuisance. But I bristle at the NFB telling me that I should feel that way.
>That's a personal value that nobody has a right to determine on my behalf.
>I happen to agree with that value judgement but I would never tell anyone
>that they have to share my values. I think they should share them but that
>decision *must* be left up to the individual.
>
>The NFB has an ethical responsibility to represent those who do not share
>its values.  In fact, the NFB should not even *have* values. The NFB is not
>a church or a religious organization. It should not be dictating values.
>That is inappropriate and unethical.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jim Marks" <blind.grizzly at gmail.com>
>To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:48 AM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian
signals
>
>
>> It's OK to be blind.  And it's sure a lot more functional to develop
solid
>> blindness skills.  Blind people can either fix our environments or we can
>> learn how to be good at being blind.  Most of us blend the two options
for
>> the best effect.  APS give us information about our environment.  They
>> don't
>> affect the alternative techniques of blindness, though.
>>
>> What does this common sense approach have to do with blaming the victim
>> and
>> being super blind?  Also, what does being super blind mean?  Aren't we
>> talking about function here?  I thought the re-print of the speech was
>> pretty good stuff.  When I read it, I thought that we are starting to
turn
>
>> a
>> corner to a better understanding of APS.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----
>> Jim Marks
>> blind.grizzly at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 7:16 AM
>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian
>> signals
>>
>> My mobility skills are not at issue here. The fact is that not everyone
>> has
>> perfect mobility skills and everyone can make a mistake. I've already
>> posted
>>
>> a link to an article about the ways that audible walk signals help blind
>> people deal with confusing and difficult situations.  Did you read that
>> article?
>>
>> In fact, my mobility skills are just fine. But that's not the point. I
>> have
>> had access to some of the best mobility training in the world via the
>> Wisconsin Council of the Blind and Guide dogs for the Blind. But not
>> everyone has that access. And even if they do, everyone makes mistakes.
>> Audible walk signlas help blind people avoid mistakes.
>>
>> Actually, I'm glad you brought this up. Blaming the blind person for
their
>> problems is not a solution. But all too often, that is exactly what the
>> NFB
>> does.  Its a direct result of the NFB philosophy that blindness can be
>> reduced to a mere nuiscance. Well, that may or may not even be true. But
>> the
>>
>> main problem with it is that it inevitably results in blaming the victim.
>> If
>>
>> you can't cross a street without audible walk signals, that's your
>> problem.
>> If you're not Super Blind Guy (or Gal), the NFB has no use for you.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 7:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian
>> signals
>>
>>
>> Maybe you should get some travel training, I don't like them because when
>> the dam things are makeing all the raket, I can't hear the traffic.
>> This is a fact of life, people don't always stop for a red light, I want
>> to
>> be able to hear them.
>> Maybe someone on the list can explain to you how blind people are able to
>> tell when the light is ready for you to cross.
>> These things are where sighted people get there negative stereotypes
from.
>> They think that we can't do anything for our selves, like open a door,
>> cross
>> the street, find a seat, carry our food, take care of our kids, and much
>> more.
>> Its guys like you that hold us back.
>> That's just one reason that they wont hire us, they think we can't do
>> anything.
>> I know someone else like you, he wont even go to the store or to the bank
>> by
>> him self, and he knows how to, but wants everyone to know that blind
>> people
>> are stupid and helpless.
>> Maybe you should get rehab to send you to one of the NFB training
centers.
>> I whent to the Colorado center myself, they are good, I'm not shore about
>> the other 2, but I'm shore they are good as well.
>> They can show you how to tell when the light changes, and when and how to
>> cross the street
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian
>> signals
>>
>>
>> Yes, of course I need audible walk signals.
>>
>> I hope you're not trying to imply that I shouldn't need audible walk
>> signals. By that logic, visible walk signals are also unnecessary. That
>> would imply that cities all over the globe have wasted millions of
dollars
>> installing visible walk signals for sighted people.  If you don't believe
>> that visible walk signals help sighted people cross streets more safely,
>> you
>> should contact the traffic engineers in your city and they will set you
>> straight. Just as visible signals help sighted people cross streets more
>> safely, audible signals help blind pedestrians cross streets more safely.
>>
>> Here is a link to some information about audible walk signals helping
>> blind
>> people cross streets more safely:
>> http://www.apsguide.org/appendix_c_research.cfm
>>
>> If you have any reason to believe that audible signals do not help blind
>> pedestrians cross the street more safely, I would like to see it.  It
>> certainly seems counter-intuitive to say that audible signals would not
>> make
>> blind pedestrians safer. If you're going to say that, you are obligated
to
>> provide some evidence.  The NFB should not be organizing protests against
>> something that by all appearances would make blind pedestrians safer
>> unless
>> they have some compelling reason to believe it doesn't work.
>>
>> Otherwise, the NFB should stop playing games with the lives of blind
>> pedestrians.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian
>> signals
>>
>>
>> Why do you think the NFB  should change its stance?
>> Do you need them?
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 9:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian
>> signals
>>
>>
>> As recently as 2003, the NFB organized protests against audible  walk
>> signals:
>> http://nfb.org/legacy/bm/bm03/bm0301/bm030103.htm
>>
>> Personally, I feel there is no more important issue on which the NFB
needs
>> to change its stance. This is about as wrong-headed as an organization
can
>> be.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>; "Florida Association
of
>> Guide Dog Users" <flagdu at nfbnet.org>; "NAGDU Mailing List,the National
>> Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>; "NFB Florida"
>> <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>; "NFB of Florida parents" <fopbc at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: "Dianne Ketts" <dianne at ketts.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 8:20 AM
>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals
>>
>>
>> The FCB is streaming their convention and I am currently listening to a
>> speech by an O & M instructor, Dianne Ketts, who happens to work for the
>> Lighthouse of Central Florida. I know Dianne personally and find her to
be
>
>> a
>> very progressive-thinking O & M instructor. She is explaining the various
>> kinds of Pedestrian signals, traffic lights and the use of audible
>> pedestrian signals. She particularly emphasizes that you need proper O &
M
>> techniques and training whether or not the audible indications exists,
>> saying that the audible signal only indicates that the walk signal is
>> showing, not that it is safe to cross the street. I find her outlook
>> refreshing and the lecture fascinating.  It is interesting to learn how
>> the
>> various lights are actuated as well as how the audible pedestrian signals
>> work. I think it would be of great use to have an explanation of these
>> various signals and the technology regarding APS'S AT A FUTURE NFBF
>> CONVENTION AND EVEN POSSIBLY AT AN NFB national convention. I really
>> believe
>> with traffic patterns changing, with more and more cars on our roadways,
>> this information is useful for us to know. She says, for example, that
>> whether there is an APS or not, there are some intersections where it is
>> imperative for people to find the push-button. Really interesting!
>>
>> Sherri
>>
>>
>> Sherri Brun, NFBF Secretary and NewslineR Coordinator
>> E-mail:  flmom2006 at gmail.com
>> http://www.nfbnewslineonline.org
>> http://www.nfbflorida.org
>>
>> "Don't give up something you want forever for something you want only for
>> now!"
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