[nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals

Thu May 27 14:49:04 UTC 2010

Well, you've contradicted yourself in bizarre fashion in the message below. 
First you tell me you're not trying to tell me how to act as a blind person 
and then you trash me for daring to ask for an accomodation.

You can't have it both ways.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals

> No one is telling you how to be, or what kind of blind guy you are to be.
> And no one on this list are what you are calling super blind, we just do 
> things for our selves, and not have everyone else do everything for us and 
> hand out stuff.
> Its called being independent.
> You are why sighted people talk down to us and think that we are stupid 
> and helpless.
> That's why they think they they have to tell us when to cross the street.
> I've seen the talking crosswalks, most of the time when they go off, 
> traffic is still turning in front of you, but because they make all that 
> noise you can't hear them.
> If you listen to sighted people, you will get hit some time.
> They just see a gap in traffic and start walking.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 11:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
> signals
>
>
>> Super Blind Guy is my term for the person the NFB wants you to be.  This 
>> is the guy for whom blindness has become a mere nuisance.
>>
>> Its truely ironic that I am being criticized on this list for not being 
>> Super Blind Guy. Earlier this month, I was thuroughly trashed on the 
>> acb-l list for insisting that everyone should try to be Super Blind Guy. 
>> IMO, that is the goal every blind person should set. But I don't think 
>> that should be an official policy of the NFB because they have no right 
>> to tell people how to be blind.
>>
>> Nobody has a right to tell anyone else how to deal with their disability. 
>> I happen to agree that with proper training blindness can be reduced to a 
>> mere nuisance. But I bristle at the NFB telling me that I should feel 
>> that way. That's a personal value that nobody has a right to determine on 
>> my behalf. I happen to agree with that value judgement but I would never 
>> tell anyone that they have to share my values. I think they should share 
>> them but that decision *must* be left up to the individual.
>>
>> The NFB has an ethical responsibility to represent those who do not share 
>> its values.  In fact, the NFB should not even *have* values. The NFB is 
>> not a church or a religious organization. It should not be dictating 
>> values. That is inappropriate and unethical.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Jim Marks" <blind.grizzly at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:48 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>> signals
>>
>>
>>> It's OK to be blind.  And it's sure a lot more functional to develop 
>>> solid
>>> blindness skills.  Blind people can either fix our environments or we 
>>> can
>>> learn how to be good at being blind.  Most of us blend the two options 
>>> for
>>> the best effect.  APS give us information about our environment.  They 
>>> don't
>>> affect the alternative techniques of blindness, though.
>>>
>>> What does this common sense approach have to do with blaming the victim 
>>> and
>>> being super blind?  Also, what does being super blind mean?  Aren't we
>>> talking about function here?  I thought the re-print of the speech was
>>> pretty good stuff.  When I read it, I thought that we are starting to 
>>> turn a
>>> corner to a better understanding of APS.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----
>>> Jim Marks
>>> blind.grizzly at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 7:16 AM
>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>> signals
>>>
>>> My mobility skills are not at issue here. The fact is that not everyone 
>>> has
>>> perfect mobility skills and everyone can make a mistake. I've already 
>>> posted
>>>
>>> a link to an article about the ways that audible walk signals help blind
>>> people deal with confusing and difficult situations.  Did you read that
>>> article?
>>>
>>> In fact, my mobility skills are just fine. But that's not the point. I 
>>> have
>>> had access to some of the best mobility training in the world via the
>>> Wisconsin Council of the Blind and Guide dogs for the Blind. But not
>>> everyone has that access. And even if they do, everyone makes mistakes.
>>> Audible walk signlas help blind people avoid mistakes.
>>>
>>> Actually, I'm glad you brought this up. Blaming the blind person for 
>>> their
>>> problems is not a solution. But all too often, that is exactly what the 
>>> NFB
>>> does.  Its a direct result of the NFB philosophy that blindness can be
>>> reduced to a mere nuiscance. Well, that may or may not even be true. But 
>>> the
>>>
>>> main problem with it is that it inevitably results in blaming the 
>>> victim. If
>>>
>>> you can't cross a street without audible walk signals, that's your 
>>> problem.
>>> If you're not Super Blind Guy (or Gal), the NFB has no use for you.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 7:44 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>> signals
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe you should get some travel training, I don't like them because 
>>> when
>>> the dam things are makeing all the raket, I can't hear the traffic.
>>> This is a fact of life, people don't always stop for a red light, I want 
>>> to
>>> be able to hear them.
>>> Maybe someone on the list can explain to you how blind people are able 
>>> to
>>> tell when the light is ready for you to cross.
>>> These things are where sighted people get there negative stereotypes 
>>> from.
>>> They think that we can't do anything for our selves, like open a door, 
>>> cross
>>> the street, find a seat, carry our food, take care of our kids, and much
>>> more.
>>> Its guys like you that hold us back.
>>> That's just one reason that they wont hire us, they think we can't do
>>> anything.
>>> I know someone else like you, he wont even go to the store or to the 
>>> bank by
>>> him self, and he knows how to, but wants everyone to know that blind 
>>> people
>>> are stupid and helpless.
>>> Maybe you should get rehab to send you to one of the NFB training 
>>> centers.
>>> I whent to the Colorado center myself, they are good, I'm not shore 
>>> about
>>> the other 2, but I'm shore they are good as well.
>>> They can show you how to tell when the light changes, and when and how 
>>> to
>>> cross the street
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:57 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>> signals
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, of course I need audible walk signals.
>>>
>>> I hope you're not trying to imply that I shouldn't need audible walk
>>> signals. By that logic, visible walk signals are also unnecessary. That
>>> would imply that cities all over the globe have wasted millions of 
>>> dollars
>>> installing visible walk signals for sighted people.  If you don't 
>>> believe
>>> that visible walk signals help sighted people cross streets more safely, 
>>> you
>>> should contact the traffic engineers in your city and they will set you
>>> straight. Just as visible signals help sighted people cross streets more
>>> safely, audible signals help blind pedestrians cross streets more 
>>> safely.
>>>
>>> Here is a link to some information about audible walk signals helping 
>>> blind
>>> people cross streets more safely:
>>> http://www.apsguide.org/appendix_c_research.cfm
>>>
>>> If you have any reason to believe that audible signals do not help blind
>>> pedestrians cross the street more safely, I would like to see it.  It
>>> certainly seems counter-intuitive to say that audible signals would not 
>>> make
>>> blind pedestrians safer. If you're going to say that, you are obligated 
>>> to
>>> provide some evidence.  The NFB should not be organizing protests 
>>> against
>>> something that by all appearances would make blind pedestrians safer 
>>> unless
>>> they have some compelling reason to believe it doesn't work.
>>>
>>> Otherwise, the NFB should stop playing games with the lives of blind
>>> pedestrians.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:06 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>> signals
>>>
>>>
>>> Why do you think the NFB  should change its stance?
>>> Do you need them?
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 9:51 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>> signals
>>>
>>>
>>> As recently as 2003, the NFB organized protests against audible  walk
>>> signals:
>>> http://nfb.org/legacy/bm/bm03/bm0301/bm030103.htm
>>>
>>> Personally, I feel there is no more important issue on which the NFB 
>>> needs
>>> to change its stance. This is about as wrong-headed as an organization 
>>> can
>>> be.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>; "Florida Association 
>>> of
>>> Guide Dog Users" <flagdu at nfbnet.org>; "NAGDU Mailing List,the National
>>> Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>; "NFB Florida"
>>> <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>; "NFB of Florida parents" <fopbc at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: "Dianne Ketts" <dianne at ketts.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 8:20 AM
>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals
>>>
>>>
>>> The FCB is streaming their convention and I am currently listening to a
>>> speech by an O & M instructor, Dianne Ketts, who happens to work for the
>>> Lighthouse of Central Florida. I know Dianne personally and find her to 
>>> be a
>>> very progressive-thinking O & M instructor. She is explaining the 
>>> various
>>> kinds of Pedestrian signals, traffic lights and the use of audible
>>> pedestrian signals. She particularly emphasizes that you need proper O & 
>>> M
>>> techniques and training whether or not the audible indications exists,
>>> saying that the audible signal only indicates that the walk signal is
>>> showing, not that it is safe to cross the street. I find her outlook
>>> refreshing and the lecture fascinating.  It is interesting to learn how 
>>> the
>>> various lights are actuated as well as how the audible pedestrian 
>>> signals
>>> work. I think it would be of great use to have an explanation of these
>>> various signals and the technology regarding APS'S AT A FUTURE NFBF
>>> CONVENTION AND EVEN POSSIBLY AT AN NFB national convention. I really 
>>> believe
>>> with traffic patterns changing, with more and more cars on our roadways,
>>> this information is useful for us to know. She says, for example, that
>>> whether there is an APS or not, there are some intersections where it is
>>> imperative for people to find the push-button. Really interesting!
>>>
>>> Sherri
>>>
>>>
>>> Sherri Brun, NFBF Secretary and NewslineR Coordinator
>>> E-mail:  flmom2006 at gmail.com
>>> http://www.nfbnewslineonline.org
>>> http://www.nfbflorida.org
>>>
>>> "Don't give up something you want forever for something you want only 
>>> for
>>> now!"
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>>
>>
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