[nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals

Dewey Bradley dewey.bradley at att.net
Thu May 27 15:09:39 UTC 2010 

I don't know where you get that from, but I'm shore you know what you are 
talking about.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals


> Well, you've contradicted yourself in bizarre fashion in the message 
> below. First you tell me you're not trying to tell me how to act as a 
> blind person and then you trash me for daring to ask for an accomodation.
>
> You can't have it both ways.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 3:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
> signals
>
>
>> No one is telling you how to be, or what kind of blind guy you are to be.
>> And no one on this list are what you are calling super blind, we just do 
>> things for our selves, and not have everyone else do everything for us 
>> and hand out stuff.
>> Its called being independent.
>> You are why sighted people talk down to us and think that we are stupid 
>> and helpless.
>> That's why they think they they have to tell us when to cross the street.
>> I've seen the talking crosswalks, most of the time when they go off, 
>> traffic is still turning in front of you, but because they make all that 
>> noise you can't hear them.
>> If you listen to sighted people, you will get hit some time.
>> They just see a gap in traffic and start walking.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 11:17 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>> signals
>>
>>
>>> Super Blind Guy is my term for the person the NFB wants you to be.  This 
>>> is the guy for whom blindness has become a mere nuisance.
>>>
>>> Its truely ironic that I am being criticized on this list for not being 
>>> Super Blind Guy. Earlier this month, I was thuroughly trashed on the 
>>> acb-l list for insisting that everyone should try to be Super Blind Guy. 
>>> IMO, that is the goal every blind person should set. But I don't think 
>>> that should be an official policy of the NFB because they have no right 
>>> to tell people how to be blind.
>>>
>>> Nobody has a right to tell anyone else how to deal with their 
>>> disability. I happen to agree that with proper training blindness can be 
>>> reduced to a mere nuisance. But I bristle at the NFB telling me that I 
>>> should feel that way. That's a personal value that nobody has a right to 
>>> determine on my behalf. I happen to agree with that value judgement but 
>>> I would never tell anyone that they have to share my values. I think 
>>> they should share them but that decision *must* be left up to the 
>>> individual.
>>>
>>> The NFB has an ethical responsibility to represent those who do not 
>>> share its values.  In fact, the NFB should not even *have* values. The 
>>> NFB is not a church or a religious organization. It should not be 
>>> dictating values. That is inappropriate and unethical.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Jim Marks" <blind.grizzly at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:48 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>> signals
>>>
>>>
>>>> It's OK to be blind.  And it's sure a lot more functional to develop 
>>>> solid
>>>> blindness skills.  Blind people can either fix our environments or we 
>>>> can
>>>> learn how to be good at being blind.  Most of us blend the two options 
>>>> for
>>>> the best effect.  APS give us information about our environment.  They 
>>>> don't
>>>> affect the alternative techniques of blindness, though.
>>>>
>>>> What does this common sense approach have to do with blaming the victim 
>>>> and
>>>> being super blind?  Also, what does being super blind mean?  Aren't we
>>>> talking about function here?  I thought the re-print of the speech was
>>>> pretty good stuff.  When I read it, I thought that we are starting to 
>>>> turn a
>>>> corner to a better understanding of APS.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>> Jim Marks
>>>> blind.grizzly at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 7:16 AM
>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>>> signals
>>>>
>>>> My mobility skills are not at issue here. The fact is that not everyone 
>>>> has
>>>> perfect mobility skills and everyone can make a mistake. I've already 
>>>> posted
>>>>
>>>> a link to an article about the ways that audible walk signals help 
>>>> blind
>>>> people deal with confusing and difficult situations.  Did you read that
>>>> article?
>>>>
>>>> In fact, my mobility skills are just fine. But that's not the point. I 
>>>> have
>>>> had access to some of the best mobility training in the world via the
>>>> Wisconsin Council of the Blind and Guide dogs for the Blind. But not
>>>> everyone has that access. And even if they do, everyone makes mistakes.
>>>> Audible walk signlas help blind people avoid mistakes.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, I'm glad you brought this up. Blaming the blind person for 
>>>> their
>>>> problems is not a solution. But all too often, that is exactly what the 
>>>> NFB
>>>> does.  Its a direct result of the NFB philosophy that blindness can be
>>>> reduced to a mere nuiscance. Well, that may or may not even be true. 
>>>> But the
>>>>
>>>> main problem with it is that it inevitably results in blaming the 
>>>> victim. If
>>>>
>>>> you can't cross a street without audible walk signals, that's your 
>>>> problem.
>>>> If you're not Super Blind Guy (or Gal), the NFB has no use for you.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 7:44 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>>> signals
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe you should get some travel training, I don't like them because 
>>>> when
>>>> the dam things are makeing all the raket, I can't hear the traffic.
>>>> This is a fact of life, people don't always stop for a red light, I 
>>>> want to
>>>> be able to hear them.
>>>> Maybe someone on the list can explain to you how blind people are able 
>>>> to
>>>> tell when the light is ready for you to cross.
>>>> These things are where sighted people get there negative stereotypes 
>>>> from.
>>>> They think that we can't do anything for our selves, like open a door, 
>>>> cross
>>>> the street, find a seat, carry our food, take care of our kids, and 
>>>> much
>>>> more.
>>>> Its guys like you that hold us back.
>>>> That's just one reason that they wont hire us, they think we can't do
>>>> anything.
>>>> I know someone else like you, he wont even go to the store or to the 
>>>> bank by
>>>> him self, and he knows how to, but wants everyone to know that blind 
>>>> people
>>>> are stupid and helpless.
>>>> Maybe you should get rehab to send you to one of the NFB training 
>>>> centers.
>>>> I whent to the Colorado center myself, they are good, I'm not shore 
>>>> about
>>>> the other 2, but I'm shore they are good as well.
>>>> They can show you how to tell when the light changes, and when and how 
>>>> to
>>>> cross the street
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:57 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>>> signals
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, of course I need audible walk signals.
>>>>
>>>> I hope you're not trying to imply that I shouldn't need audible walk
>>>> signals. By that logic, visible walk signals are also unnecessary. That
>>>> would imply that cities all over the globe have wasted millions of 
>>>> dollars
>>>> installing visible walk signals for sighted people.  If you don't 
>>>> believe
>>>> that visible walk signals help sighted people cross streets more 
>>>> safely, you
>>>> should contact the traffic engineers in your city and they will set you
>>>> straight. Just as visible signals help sighted people cross streets 
>>>> more
>>>> safely, audible signals help blind pedestrians cross streets more 
>>>> safely.
>>>>
>>>> Here is a link to some information about audible walk signals helping 
>>>> blind
>>>> people cross streets more safely:
>>>> http://www.apsguide.org/appendix_c_research.cfm
>>>>
>>>> If you have any reason to believe that audible signals do not help 
>>>> blind
>>>> pedestrians cross the street more safely, I would like to see it.  It
>>>> certainly seems counter-intuitive to say that audible signals would not 
>>>> make
>>>> blind pedestrians safer. If you're going to say that, you are obligated 
>>>> to
>>>> provide some evidence.  The NFB should not be organizing protests 
>>>> against
>>>> something that by all appearances would make blind pedestrians safer 
>>>> unless
>>>> they have some compelling reason to believe it doesn't work.
>>>>
>>>> Otherwise, the NFB should stop playing games with the lives of blind
>>>> pedestrians.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:06 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>>> signals
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why do you think the NFB  should change its stance?
>>>> Do you need them?
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 9:51 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>>> signals
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As recently as 2003, the NFB organized protests against audible  walk
>>>> signals:
>>>> http://nfb.org/legacy/bm/bm03/bm0301/bm030103.htm
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I feel there is no more important issue on which the NFB 
>>>> needs
>>>> to change its stance. This is about as wrong-headed as an organization 
>>>> can
>>>> be.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>; "Florida Association 
>>>> of
>>>> Guide Dog Users" <flagdu at nfbnet.org>; "NAGDU Mailing List,the National
>>>> Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>; "NFB Florida"
>>>> <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>; "NFB of Florida parents" <fopbc at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: "Dianne Ketts" <dianne at ketts.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 8:20 AM
>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>>> signals
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The FCB is streaming their convention and I am currently listening to a
>>>> speech by an O & M instructor, Dianne Ketts, who happens to work for 
>>>> the
>>>> Lighthouse of Central Florida. I know Dianne personally and find her to 
>>>> be a
>>>> very progressive-thinking O & M instructor. She is explaining the 
>>>> various
>>>> kinds of Pedestrian signals, traffic lights and the use of audible
>>>> pedestrian signals. She particularly emphasizes that you need proper O 
>>>> & M
>>>> techniques and training whether or not the audible indications exists,
>>>> saying that the audible signal only indicates that the walk signal is
>>>> showing, not that it is safe to cross the street. I find her outlook
>>>> refreshing and the lecture fascinating.  It is interesting to learn how 
>>>> the
>>>> various lights are actuated as well as how the audible pedestrian 
>>>> signals
>>>> work. I think it would be of great use to have an explanation of these
>>>> various signals and the technology regarding APS'S AT A FUTURE NFBF
>>>> CONVENTION AND EVEN POSSIBLY AT AN NFB national convention. I really 
>>>> believe
>>>> with traffic patterns changing, with more and more cars on our 
>>>> roadways,
>>>> this information is useful for us to know. She says, for example, that
>>>> whether there is an APS or not, there are some intersections where it 
>>>> is
>>>> imperative for people to find the push-button. Really interesting!
>>>>
>>>> Sherri
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sherri Brun, NFBF Secretary and NewslineR Coordinator
>>>> E-mail:  flmom2006 at gmail.com
>>>> http://www.nfbnewslineonline.org
>>>> http://www.nfbflorida.org
>>>>
>>>> "Don't give up something you want forever for something you want only 
>>>> for
>>>> now!"
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