[nfb-talk] [john at johnheim.com: unethical personal attacks]

Fri May 28 14:41:56 UTC 2010

this turned personal several days ago.
don't you get it? our delete finger is tired.

Bryan Schulz

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [john at johnheim.com: unethical personal attacks]

> What evidence do you have for your claim that I want to "tear down" the 
> NFB other than that I happen to disagree with several of its policies? 
> Don't you see that if you attack me simply for disagreeing with NFB 
> policies, you're confirming everything I have been saying? The NFB needs 
> voices of opposition. If I was irrational or insulting, it would be 
> different. But I have been unrelentingly rational and fair.
>
> I never said the NFB opposes audible walk signals "universally".  I said 
> they organized protests against them. I also pointed to an article in the 
> Braille Monitor which described the point of view expressed in the article 
> as "representative" of that of NFB members.  In the article, the author 
> claims that audible walk signals make blind pedestrians less safe.  The 
> Braille Monitor itself described that opinion as representative of its 
> members. From what I can see on this list, that seems to be correct.
>
> If you think I'm exaggerating the NFB position, please read the article 
> about the protest organized by the NFB.
> http://nfb.org/legacy/bm/bm03/bm0301/bm030103.htm
>
> That article was written by a member of the NFB Board of Directors. It 
> doesn't say anything about being in favor of certain audible signals or in 
> favor of them under certain conditions.  Quite the contrary, . Here is a 
> section of that article:
>
> --- begin quote ---
>
> Mike Freeman: "Some Federationists crossed Sixth Avenue so that chanting 
> with antiphonal responses could be set up. Such chants as: `Got our canes; 
> got our minds. We don't need those beeping signs!'; `Chirp, chirp, beep, 
> beep! We know how to cross the street!';
>
> --- end quote ---
>
>
>
> If the NFB was trying to say it favors audible walk signals under certain 
> conditions, it was doing a very poor job of saying so.
>
>
>
> In my opinion, it is unfair for Joseph to keep making these vague 
> accusations while refusing to even listening to my response. I can't ask 
> him to clarify his accusations because he has my messages filtered.
>
>
> From: "T. Joseph Carter" <carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [john at johnheim.com: unethical personal attacks]
>
>
>> Kenneth,
>>
>> Have you read John's messages?  Last I checked, he did not claim to be a 
>> member of this organization.  Moreover, he insists that the NFB has an 
>> obligation to represent the viewpoint of the blind people who are not its 
>> membership.  Setting aside the sheer impossibility of this, the 
>> discussion inevitably winds up concluding that by blind people who aren't 
>> members of the organization, John means himself.  And by represent, he 
>> means change our views so that what he believes is correct is the policy 
>> of the NFB.
>>
>> No one man has the power to change the policies and direction of this 
>> organization by himself.  Not even Dr. Jernigan had that kind of sway 
>> over the NFB, and he was a lot more charismatic.  Likewise, the words of 
>> Jernigan ring bold, true, and unafraid in the hearts of many.  By 
>> contrast, Heim's words ring of the cheap straw man attacks they are, 
>> intended solely to tear down what we have built.
>>
>> He then goes on to say that we universally oppose audible pedestrian 
>> signals, descriptive video, access to new technologies, and I would be 
>> shocked if he doesn't also argue that NFB hates guide dogs, though I 
>> don't recall if he's ever made that argument now or not.
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 07:40:39PM -0400, Kenneth Chrane wrote:
>>>Hi Don, we do have a good list and a good group.
>>>Dr. Tenbroek resigned because he under-went personal attacks in 1961.
>>>We don't want a repeat perforance of it.
>>>Kenneth Chrane
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "don nepple" <dnepple at hotmail.com>
>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 5:54 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [john at johnheim.com: unethical personal attacks]
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>yes ray i all so do not like this on this list we have a good list so 
>>>>yes he shshould googo off the list.by for now.
>>>>
>>>>----------------------------------------
>>>>>From: jheim at math.wisc.edu
>>>>>To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 16:38:45 -0500
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [john at johnheim.com: unethical personal attacks]
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't know what you're talking about. People have been uncivil toward 
>>>>>me,
>>>>>not the other way around.
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Ray Foret Jr"
>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List"
>>>>>Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 3:16 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [john at johnheim.com: unethical personal attacks]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I wish to state here and now that I stand with Sarah and Joseph 
>>>>>>completely.
>>>>>>I wish to openly ask that John be removed from the lists. Under normal
>>>>>>circumstances, I would write Dave privately and protest; but, in this 
>>>>>>case,
>>>>>>I am choosing to come right straight out and plainly and openly ask 
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>this be done. Civil debate is one thing; and, God knows we've had go
>>>>>>rounds about this issue and that on this list. But this, I think is 
>>>>>>much
>>>>>>too far!!!! Very much too far!!! ENOUGH, ENOUGH, ENOUGH!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>e-mail:
>>>>>>rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>skype:
>>>>>>barefootedray
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>with Hotmail.
>>>>http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5
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>>>
>>>
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