[nfb-talk] [john at johnheim.com: unethical personal attacks]

Fri May 28 13:37:14 UTC 2010

What evidence do you have for your claim that I want to "tear down" the NFB 
other than that I happen to disagree with several of its policies?  Don't 
you see that if you attack me simply for disagreeing with NFB policies, 
you're confirming everything I have been saying? The NFB needs voices of 
opposition. If I was irrational or insulting, it would be different. But I 
have been unrelentingly rational and fair.

I never said the NFB opposes audible walk signals "universally".  I said 
they organized protests against them. I also pointed to an article in the 
Braille Monitor which described the point of view expressed in the article 
as "representative" of that of NFB members.  In the article, the author 
claims that audible walk signals make blind pedestrians less safe.  The 
Braille Monitor itself described that opinion as representative of its 
members. From what I can see on this list, that seems to be correct.

If you think I'm exaggerating the NFB position, please read the article 
about the protest organized by the NFB.
http://nfb.org/legacy/bm/bm03/bm0301/bm030103.htm

That article was written by a member of the NFB Board of Directors. It 
doesn't say anything about being in favor of certain audible signals or in 
favor of them under certain conditions.  Quite the contrary, . Here is a 
section of that article:

--- begin quote ---

Mike Freeman: "Some Federationists crossed Sixth Avenue so that chanting 
with antiphonal responses could be set up. Such chants as: `Got our canes; 
got our minds. We don't need those beeping signs!'; `Chirp, chirp, beep, 
beep! We know how to cross the street!';

--- end quote ---

If the NFB was trying to say it favors audible walk signals under certain 
conditions, it was doing a very poor job of saying so.

In my opinion, it is unfair for Joseph to keep making these vague 
accusations while refusing to even listening to my response. I can't ask him 
to clarify his accusations because he has my messages filtered.

From: "T. Joseph Carter" <carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [john at johnheim.com: unethical personal attacks]

> Kenneth,
>
> Have you read John's messages?  Last I checked, he did not claim to be a 
> member of this organization.  Moreover, he insists that the NFB has an 
> obligation to represent the viewpoint of the blind people who are not its 
> membership.  Setting aside the sheer impossibility of this, the discussion 
> inevitably winds up concluding that by blind people who aren't members of 
> the organization, John means himself.  And by represent, he means change 
> our views so that what he believes is correct is the policy of the NFB.
>
> No one man has the power to change the policies and direction of this 
> organization by himself.  Not even Dr. Jernigan had that kind of sway over 
> the NFB, and he was a lot more charismatic.  Likewise, the words of 
> Jernigan ring bold, true, and unafraid in the hearts of many.  By 
> contrast, Heim's words ring of the cheap straw man attacks they are, 
> intended solely to tear down what we have built.
>
> He then goes on to say that we universally oppose audible pedestrian 
> signals, descriptive video, access to new technologies, and I would be 
> shocked if he doesn't also argue that NFB hates guide dogs, though I don't 
> recall if he's ever made that argument now or not.
>
> Joseph
>
>
> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 07:40:39PM -0400, Kenneth Chrane wrote:
>>Hi Don, we do have a good list and a good group.
>>Dr. Tenbroek resigned because he under-went personal attacks in 1961.
>>We don't want a repeat perforance of it.
>>Kenneth Chrane
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "don nepple" <dnepple at hotmail.com>
>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 5:54 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [john at johnheim.com: unethical personal attacks]
>>
>>
>>>
>>>yes ray i all so do not like this on this list we have a good list so yes 
>>>he shshould googo off the list.by for now.
>>>
>>>----------------------------------------
>>>>From: jheim at math.wisc.edu
>>>>To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 16:38:45 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [john at johnheim.com: unethical personal attacks]
>>>>
>>>>I don't know what you're talking about. People have been uncivil toward 
>>>>me,
>>>>not the other way around.
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Ray Foret Jr"
>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List"
>>>>Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 3:16 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [john at johnheim.com: unethical personal attacks]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I wish to state here and now that I stand with Sarah and Joseph 
>>>>>completely.
>>>>>I wish to openly ask that John be removed from the lists. Under normal
>>>>>circumstances, I would write Dave privately and protest; but, in this 
>>>>>case,
>>>>>I am choosing to come right straight out and plainly and openly ask 
>>>>>that
>>>>>this be done. Civil debate is one thing; and, God knows we've had go
>>>>>rounds about this issue and that on this list. But this, I think is 
>>>>>much
>>>>>too far!!!! Very much too far!!! ENOUGH, ENOUGH, ENOUGH!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>e-mail:
>>>>>rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>skype:
>>>>>barefootedray
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>_________________________________________________________________
>>>The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with 
>>>Hotmail.
>>>http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>
>>
>>
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