[nfb-talk] Convention

Loren Wakefield isaiah5719 at mchsi.com
Sat Aug 6 11:10:53 UTC 2011


Steve, I think we agree for the most part.  You make some very valid points. 
As you say, it can be a very fine line between the two.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Convention


> Loren,
>
> As you have described, you are dealing with a serious health situation and 
> you have a clear reason why you might choose to have your meat cut.  In
> addition, as I have tried to express, there may well be situations where a 
> blind person who had not mastered cutting meet yet may choose to have 
> their meat
> cut rather than tackling a task in public with which they are not yet 
> comfortable.  What sometimes troubles me, though, is when people allow the 
> impression
> to be given that they cannot do a given task because of being blind when 
> there are other disabilities or circumstances involved.  I also get a 
> little troubled
> when I see people not learn to do something they might be capable of 
> learning because they just don't want to make the effort and then use the 
> "I don't
> have to prove anything to anybody" has a justification.  I don't believe 
> we need to all be equally good at everything, that is just not possible. 
> We also have
> to be aware that each of us has our own set of circumstances.  Still, 
> there is a big difference between walking with someone as did Dr. Jernigan 
> at times
> because one has decided it is more efficient in a given situation, and 
> walking with someone because one has to.  We sometimes walk a fine line 
> between
> pushing each other to do just a little more and being critical of each 
> other, and it is good for us to examine the difference from time to time. 
> However, don't
> overlook the fact that one might choose to try to do something not to be 
> superior to someone else but to reinforce one's own self-confidence. 
> There are
> times when I do something like take a bus instead of a taxi or walk 
> instead of taking a bus not to lord it over someone else but to remind 
> myself that I can do
> it.  We live in a society that doesn't understand our capabilities, so it 
> is easy to loose one's self-confidence.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:12:26 -0500, Loren Wakefield wrote:
>
>>agreed.  But even Dr. Jernigan walked with people at times.  It was when 
>>he
>>chose to do so.  I have seen to often that people will do things just
>>because they need to prove how independent they are.  And I have to wonder
>>if sometimes we will undertake an action just so we can feel momentarily
>>superior to someone who cannot do that yet.  Normally I can cut my own 
>>meat
>>without much problems.  However, right now, I am still recovering from a
>>long illness in which I was in bed for several months and had two valves
>>replaced replaced in my heart.  And right now, I still do not have the
>>strength to cut my own meat.  But there is no way someone is going to act
>>superior to me or put me down if I ask to have the chef cut it for me.  I
>>still view this as exercising some independence though because I am making
>>the decision as to what needs to be done, and how it is done.  Also, I 
>>know
>>what I can do under normal circumstances and what I cannot.  I am at a 
>>point
>>where I do not have to prove anything to anyone.  I do not mean to sound
>>snobbish about that.  I'm also smart enough to know that there is more for
>>me to still learn than I could ever learn in a lifetime.  And I would hate
>>to see someone miss out on the fun of convention just because he or she
>>cannot cut his or her own meat.  There's just so much more out there.
>>Anyway, thanks for letting me give some rambling and disjointed thoughts.
>
>
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 4:36 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Convention
>
>
>>> Loren,
>>>
>>> I still find myself getting a little uneasy with how we carry out
>>> accepting people where they are even though I agree that we need to do
>>> that.  I think
>>> independence is not just accepting the status quo but it is something we
>>> have to strive for.  It doesn't mean that we have to constantly beat up 
>>> on
>>> ourselves
>>> because we are not as independent as someone else in terms of not
>>> requiring help, for example, but it also sometimes means looking at what
>>> we do and
>>> how we might do it more independently.  It can be easy for any of us to
>>> decide that a given problem isn't our fault, it is everybody else's 
>>> fault
>>> for not
>>> accepting us as we are.  Sometimes people are quick to judge, but
>>> sometimes we sell ourselves short.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>> On Thu, 4 Aug 2011 13:18:10 -0500, Loren Wakefield wrote:
>>>
>>>>Yes, there may be another disability involved.  And it also may be that
>>>>the
>>>>person is older.  Whatever the reason, it happens.
>>>
>>>>Anyway, we need to meet people where they are.  And let them decide how 
>>>>to
>>>>handle things.  We can show them ways to handle various situations.  And
>>>>maybe a good discussion would be exactly what is independence anyway?
>>>
>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 10:45 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Convention
>>>
>>>
>>>>> We need to be understanding that blind people and our members in
>>>>> particularly come to conventions with many different backgrounds and
>>>>> levels of skills so
>>>>> I agree with your point.  Our role should be to help people achieve
>>>>> independence, not to require that independence be already achieved
>>>>> before
>>>>> attending a
>>>>> convention.  I do question your statement that sighted people don't 
>>>>> cut
>>>>> their own meat, though.  I've ever seen a sighted person not cut their
>>>>> own
>>>>> meat
>>>>> unless there was another disability involved.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:00:03 -0500, Loren Wakefield wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm not surprised at all but finding those who do not cut their own 
>>>>>>meat
>>>>>>at
>>>>>>nfb conventions.  Many sighted do not cut their own these days. And
>>>>>>cutting
>>>>>>your own meat does nothing to prove you are independent.  We all have
>>>>>>differing abilities.  And as long as we are calling the shots, then 
>>>>>>who
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>to say who is independent and who is not?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>>From: <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 9:50 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Convention
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dave,
>>>>>>> Great points from personal experience! But given the philosophy of
>>>>>>> independence, I'm kind of surprised you've seen individuals who need
>>>>>>> help
>>>>>>> cutting meat.  I would think those people would be embarrassed to be
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> NFB convention with many independent blind people. I've certainly 
>>>>>>> seen
>>>>>>> many different types of people with a wide range of interests at
>>>>>>> conventions. I have been to mainly state ones but one part of a
>>>>>>> national
>>>>>>> one.  Yes there is certainly diversity.
>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- 
>>>>>>> From: David Andrews
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 10:41 PM
>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Convention
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have been to quite a number of NFb conventions, and I will say 
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> I have observed a wide range of persons and abilities.  I have seen
>>>>>>> some great travelers, and I have seen people who bring a sighted
>>>>>>> parent or friend because they don't travel alone.  I have seen 
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> who went through buffet lines with little or no assistance, and I
>>>>>>> have had dinner with people who requested that the waiter or 
>>>>>>> waitress
>>>>>>> cut their meat.  I suspect that the range of people and abilities is
>>>>>>> much greater than you think.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At 04:13 PM 8/2/2011, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>Well, I presume you're asking how I know that those who attend the
>>>>>>>>conventions are the best of the best. And I'll admit its just
>>>>>>>>speculation.
>>>>>>>>But it just stands to reason. Of course, it wouldn't be a perfect
>>>>>>>>correllation either.  But I'm sure the majority of people at the NFB
>>>>>>>>conventions are those who have it together (for lack of a better
>>>>>>>>term).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I once got into a debate with someone from the ACB who questioned 
>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>70%
>>>>>>>>unemployment figure for blind people. He had done  a survey of ACB
>>>>>>>>members
>>>>>>>>and found that the unemployment rate was more like 30 - 40%. But I
>>>>>>>>pointed
>>>>>>>>out that ACB members probably aren't average blind people. 30 - 40% 
>>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>ACB
>>>>>>>>members might be unemployed but that doesn't mean that 30 - 40% of 
>>>>>>>>all
>>>>>>>>blind people are unemployed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>NFB members probably aren't average either, especially those who
>>>>>>>>attend
>>>>>>>>conventions. So you probably couldn't get an accurate glimpse into 
>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>lives of the average blind person even if you expanded the voting to
>>>>>>>>those
>>>>>>>>not attending the convention. But it would help, IMO.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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