[nfb-talk] Fwd: Why did the National Federation of the BlindCondemns Lack of Access to New Kindle Fire?

Ashley Bramlett bookwormahb at earthlink.net
Tue Oct 4 22:08:28 UTC 2011


Yep. We did have the protests. Then when they had a text to speech feature 
on the product, the publishers and author's guild stepped in and
said No. Then Amazon silenced the text to speech feature unless the 
publisher would permit audio.
Before you say we do not educate or try other approaches, it might be good 
to read past press releases from NFB on the actions or a quick scan of the 
braille monitor will tell you the same thing. Major events such as protests 
are recorded in the monitor.

-----Original Message----- 
From: T. Joseph Carter
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 5:43 PM
To: nimerjaber1 at gmail.com ; NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fwd: Why did the National Federation of the 
BlindCondemns Lack of Access to New Kindle Fire?

For the record, we did try educating.  Amazon has proven to be a
particularly difficult pupil.  We've had mass demonstrations
involving coalitions of different disability organizations, both NFB
and ACB united among them (HOW OFTEN does that happen?!) and yet
Amazon seems to be backsliding again.

Amazon originally made every one of their books audiobooks if the
(sighted) user wished.  Publishers screamed.  And we responded that
we should have access to them, if they were audiobooks.  It took a
couple of years to get a Kindle we could use, and then only with
those books the publishers would deign to allow to talk.  (Apple and
Blio consequently both have managed to make accessibility to their
books a universal affair!)

And now after years of fighting for this, efforts at negotiation,
failure of negotiation efforts leading to lawsuits, and finally
winning, now Amazon does this!  It's a slap in the face to every
person with a disability.  They apparently didn't get the message!

Since you call for education, there's some history for you.

Joseph


On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 04:21:54PM -0500, Nimer M. Jaber, IC³ wrote:
>Yeah yeah yeah, and if the NFB decided to educate instead of talk too
>much and go to court over everything and anything then maybe
>organizations such as Amazon would be more willing and receptive to
>making their products accessible. Just saying ...
>
>On 04.10.2011, Prows, Bennett (HHS/OCR) <Bennett.Prows at hhs.gov> wrote:
>> I might jump in here to say, that sometimes when someone like this is
>> educated a bit more, he might change his tune.  for example, since we 
>> know
>> that touch-screen technology is now usable by blind persons, (witness
>> i-phones, etc), and since other reading devices and software for 
>> downloading
>> books is usable by the blind, (witness BLIO software, etc), there is no
>> reason why Amazon can't make its device usable.  And it does have
>> proprietary rights on a lot of written material in electronic format that
>> other companies and devices don't have. Also, we have been trying to get
>> Amazon, one of the largest purveyors of e-books and devices in the world 
>> to
>> comply with laws pertaining to providing devices to blind students, 
>> business
>> professionals and other members of the public for a long time, yet that
>> company has refused to work with us, etc.  Perhaps the tirade would abate
>> when he realizes that if we don't do something, we will be left behind in
>> the age of rapid technology change, etc.  Or, maybe his tirade wouldn't
>> change.  If not, might as well ignore the source.
>>
>> Thank God for Doctor Maurer and the NFB to keep fighting for our equal
>> access to the technology out there.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 1:45 PM
>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fwd: Why did the National Federation of the
>> BlindCondemns Lack of Access to New Kindle Fire?
>>
>> I suspect Dr. Maurer can defend himself if he thinks it's important.
>>
>> Mike Freeman
>> sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Oct 4, 2011, at 13:35, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> We wouldn't have had the issue, if the guy didn't insult Dr Maurer.
>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>
>>> On 10/4/11, Jeanette Fortin <jeanette at fortin-home.com> wrote:
>>>> well hum, i think insulting folks just because  they disagree with you
>>>> doesn't show too much intelligence either, this fellow is entitled to 
>>>> his
>>>> opinion after all and whether you agree with im or not you are entitled
>>>> to
>>>> your opinion. jeanette
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at att.net>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 1:54 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fwd: Why did the National Federation of the
>>>> BlindCondemns Lack of Access to New Kindle Fire?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Why waste our time with this?  Nothing new from the simple minded 
>>>>> sapps
>>>>> who oppose us surely?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Skype name:
>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>
>>>>> Facebook:
>>>>> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 4, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi, it's Joshua Lester.
>>>>>> Look at what this idiot just sent, to the entire NFB of Arkansas!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>> From: terrysteve at suddenlink.net
>>>>>> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 13:59:48 -0500
>>>>>> Subject: Why did the National Federation of the Blind Condemns Lack 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> Access to New Kindle Fire?
>>>>>> To: tosheeler at cox.net, bkshfreeman at gmail.com, bfreeman0420 at gmail.com,
>>>>>> vtscott at cox.net, leaann1967 at gmail.com, j.scholes at sbcglobal.net,
>>>>>> bogan1265 at yahoo.com, geofynder at gmail.com, Gogetm00 at aol.com,
>>>>>> hayleyksch at gmail.com, dave.mehler at gmail.com, walkercutoff at att.net,
>>>>>> Donna.Walker at arkansas.gov, Matt.Lyles at arkansas.gov,
>>>>>> lyles_j at sbcglobal.net, honestblindman at gmail.com, pat.nfb at att.net,
>>>>>> bkkindle at yahoo.com, Teddey3000 at aol.com, james.worley at cox.net,
>>>>>> twedwards1111 at gmail.com, anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com, 
>>>>>> deweycoursey at cox.net,
>>>>>> lizngraves at yahoo.com, erp at uark.edu, mika_hooper at yahoo.com,
>>>>>> Matteri at cox.net, donbrey at gmail.com, trinitymlovell at gmail.com,
>>>>>> clj_smith at yahoo.com, arspurplegirl at cox.net, delreal93 at yahoo.com,
>>>>>> ctroby at uark.edu, e.yarberry at gmail.com, 
>>>>>> jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu,
>>>>>> gvwright2 at juno.com, lhwayland at sbcglobal.net, 
>>>>>> joshcrunkleton at gmail.com,
>>>>>> showard826 at gmail.com, jsexson at live.com, sflesher at yahoo.com,
>>>>>> diane403bill at suddenlink.net, abhoxeng at yahoo.com, hoxeng at aol.com,
>>>>>> barefootinar at yahoo.com, peter-hoffman at att.net, kaylaltodd at gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Get a grip folks! There are many devices designed, manufactured and
>>>>>> sold
>>>>>> that are not "blind friendly". And rightly so! It was stated that 
>>>>>> "The
>>>>>> feasibility of including accessibility in similar products has been
>>>>>> demonstrated." As a result of this statement there must be devices of
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> nature that are "blind friendly". So the blind apparently do have 
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> technology available to them. And just to put a point on it, the 
>>>>>> Kindle
>>>>>> Fire
>>>>>> is a PERSONAL devise, not a community device. There are dozens of
>>>>>> devices
>>>>>> that use touch screens. None of these are "blind friendly". I doubt 
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> technology now exists to make them "blind friendly".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This tirade by Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Blind, is typical of individuals that get so fanatical about  an 
>>>>>> issue
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> have loose touch with the reality of the real world in their
>>>>>> unrealistic
>>>>>> search for and unworldly and unobtainable utopia. I have books on my
>>>>>> shelf
>>>>>> that the blind cannot read; must all my books be audio? I have clocks
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> home that the blind cannot use to tell the time; must all my clocks 
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> talking. I drive a car that the blind cannot drive. This is not me
>>>>>> being
>>>>>> unsympathetic to the blind or to the cause of the blind, it is me 
>>>>>> being
>>>>>> realistic in my reality. There is technology that the blind cannot 
>>>>>> use
>>>>>> because they are blind. Sorry, FACT! There is technology that cannot 
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> made
>>>>>> available to the blind due to our level of technology at this time.
>>>>>> Touch
>>>>>> screens in use by many devices again come to mind. Can't we focus on
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> can be done and what needs to be done. Not on minor issues as that
>>>>>> below?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dr. Maurer should rethink his position regarding Amazon, waste not 
>>>>>> his
>>>>>> energy on such nonsense and concentrate on those things which 
>>>>>> actually
>>>>>> help
>>>>>> our cause. Senselessly attacking anything that is not "blind 
>>>>>> friendly"
>>>>>> actually hurts the cause. Using some common sense in choosing the
>>>>>> issues
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> tackle is important to our cause.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lets tone down the rhetoric and concentrate on issues that help our
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> friends and make the public aware of their real needs and not insist 
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> unnecessary requirements that turn the public against us and out 
>>>>>> cause
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> make us look like foolish fanatics. Stop hurting our cause with self
>>>>>> serving
>>>>>> rhetoric.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve Terry
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: <tosheeler at cox.net>
>>>>>> To: <bkshfreeman at gmail.com>; <bfreeman0420 at gmail.com>;
>>>>>> <vtscott at cox.net>;
>>>>>> <leaann1967 at gmail.com>; <j.scholes at sbcglobal.net>;
>>>>>> <bogan1265 at yahoo.com>;
>>>>>> <geofynder at gmail.com>; <Gogetm00 at aol.com>; <hayleyksch at gmail.com>;
>>>>>> <dave.mehler at gmail.com>; <walkercutoff at att.net>;
>>>>>> <Donna.Walker at arkansas.gov>; <Matt.Lyles at arkansas.gov>;
>>>>>> <lyles_j at sbcglobal.net>; <honestblindman at gmail.com>; 
>>>>>> <pat.nfb at att.net>;
>>>>>> <bkkindle at yahoo.com>; <Teddey3000 at aol.com>; <james.worley at cox.net>;
>>>>>> <twedwards1111 at gmail.com>; <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>;
>>>>>> <deweycoursey at cox.net>;
>>>>>> <lizngraves at yahoo.com>; <erp at uark.edu>; <mika_hooper at yahoo.com>;
>>>>>> <Matteri at cox.net>; <donbrey at gmail.com>; <trinitymlovell at gmail.com>;
>>>>>> <clj_smith at yahoo.com>; <hayleyksch at gmail.com>; 
>>>>>> <arspurplegirl at cox.net>;
>>>>>> <delreal93 at yahoo.com>; <ctroby at uark.edu>; <e.yarberry at gmail.com>;
>>>>>> <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>; <gvwright2 at juno.com>;
>>>>>> <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>; <lhwayland at sbcglobal.net>;
>>>>>> <joshcrunkleton at gmail.com>; <showard826 at gmail.com>; 
>>>>>> <jsexson at live.com>;
>>>>>> <sflesher at yahoo.com>; <diane403bill at suddenlink.net>;
>>>>>> <abhoxeng at yahoo.com>;
>>>>>> <hoxeng at aol.com>; <barefootinar at yahoo.com>;
>>>>>> <Terrysteve at suddenlink.net>;
>>>>>> <peter-hoffman at att.net>; <kaylaltodd at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 6:19 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Fwd: National Federation of the Blind Condemns Lack of 
>>>>>> Access
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> New Kindle Fire
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: "Freeh, Jessica" <JFreeh at nfb.org>
>>>>>>> To: Alpidio Rolon <arguza at attglobal.net>, Amy Buresh
>>>>>>> <amy.buresh74 at gmail.com>,
>>>>>> Art Schreiber <blindart at samobile.net>, Beth Rival 
>>>>>> <erival at comcast.net>,
>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>> Packee <alaskanfb at yahoo.com>, Bob Kresmer <krezguy at cox.net>, Carl
>>>>>> Jacobsen
>>>>>> <office at nfbny.org>, Cassandra McNabb <cemcnabb21 at yahoo.com>, Cathy
>>>>>> Jackson
>>>>>> <cathyj at iglou.com>, Charlene Smyth <cs.nfbwv at verizon.net>, "Christine
>>>>>> G.
>>>>>> Hall" <c.tessa4 at comcast.net>, Dan Hicks <danjhicks at yahoo.com>, Daniel
>>>>>> Burke
>>>>>> <burke.dall at gmail.com>, Don Galloway <dgalloway627 at gmail.com>, Donna
>>>>>> Wood
>>>>>> <donnajwood at cox.net>, Duane Iverson <diverson at samobile.net>, Elsie
>>>>>> Dickerson
>>>>>> <elsiedickerson at ymail.com>, Frank Lee <francois57 at comcast.net>,
>>>>>> Franklin
>>>>>> Shiner <fshiner at myfairpoint.net>, Fred Schroeder 
>>>>>> <fschroeder at sks.com>,
>>>>>> Garrick Scott <gscott at nfbga.org>, Gary Ray 
>>>>>> <ghraynfbofnc at charter.net>,
>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>> Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net>, Grace Pires <silvara at cox.net>, "J.W.
>>>>>> Smith"
>>>>>> <jwsmithnfb at verizon.net>, James Antonacci <president at nfbp.org>, 
>>>>>> Jeannie
>>>>>> Massay <Jmassay1 at cox.net>, Jennifer Dunnam
>>>>>> <jennifer.dunnam1829 at gmail.com>,
>>>>>> Joe Ruffalo <nfbnj at yahoo.com>, John Batron <jbatron at maine.rr.com>, 
>>>>>> John
>>>>>> Fritz
>>>>>> <johnfritz at centurytel.net>, Joy Harris <joy.harris at dwx.com>, Joyce
>>>>>> Scanlan
>>>>>> <joyce.scanlan at earthlink.net>, Ken Rollman <gatorbumps at rushmore.com>,
>>>>>> Kim
>>>>>> Williams <rkvend at aol.com>, Kimberly Flores <kflores at nfb-texas.org>,
>>>>>> Larry
>>>>>> Posont <president.nfb.mi at gmail.com>, Lynn Majewski 
>>>>>> <majla at verizon.net>,
>>>>>> Mary
>>>>>> Willows <mwillows at sbcglobal.net>, Melissa Riccobono
>>>>>> <melissa at riccobono.us>,
>>>>>> Michael Barber <michael.NFBI at gmail.com>, Michael Freeman
>>>>>> <k7uij at panix.com>,
>>>>>> Mika Pyyhkala <pyyhkala at gmail.com>, Nani Fife <nanifife at aol.com>, Pam
>>>>>> Allen
>>>>>> <pallen at lcb-ruston.com>, Parnell Diggs <parnell at sccoast.net>, Patti
>>>>>> Chang
>>>>>> <pattichang at att.net>, Rena Smith <realhappygirl1 at gmail.com>, Ron 
>>>>>> Brown
>>>>>> <rb15 at iquest.net>, "Gardner, Ron" <RGardner at nfb.org>, Sam Gleese
>>>>>> <SGleese at city.jackson.ms.us>, Scott LaBarre 
>>>>>> <slabarre at labarrelaw.com>,
>>>>>> Terry
>>>>>> Sheeler <tosheeler at cox.net>
>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 13:50:08 -0700
>>>>>>> Subject: National Federation of the Blind Condemns Lack of Access to
>>>>>>> New
>>>>>> Kindle Fire
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CONTACT:
>>>>>>> Chris Danielsen
>>>>>>> Director of Public Relations
>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330
>>>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)
>>>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind Condemns
>>>>>>> Lack of Access to New Kindle Fire
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (September 29, 2011): The National Federation of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Blind commented today on the release of Amazon's new Kindle Fire,
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> cannot be used by people who are blind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind,
>>>>>>> said:
>>>>>>> "Blind Americans have repeatedly asked Amazon to include 
>>>>>>> accessibility
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> the blind in its Kindle product line.  The feasibility of including
>>>>>>> accessibility in similar products has been demonstrated.  The
>>>>>>> Department
>>>>>>> of Education and the Department of Justice have made it clear that
>>>>>>> Kindle
>>>>>>> devices cannot be purchased by educational institutions, libraries,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> other entities covered by this country's disability laws unless the
>>>>>>> devices are fully accessible.  Despite all this, Amazon has released 
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> brand new Kindle device, the Kindle Fire, which cannot be used by
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> who are blind.  Enough!  We condemn this latest action by Amazon and
>>>>>>> reiterate that we will not tolerate technological discrimination. 
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind seeks nothing less than equal 
>>>>>>> access
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> all technology for blind people.  It is one of the most critical 
>>>>>>> civil
>>>>>>> rights issues facing blind Americans in the twenty-first century, 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> will do everything in our power to see that this right is secured."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ###
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> About the National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind 
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> largest and most influential membership organization of blind people
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the United States.  The NFB improves blind people's lives through
>>>>>>> advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging
>>>>>>> independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading force in the
>>>>>>> blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind.  In 
>>>>>>> January
>>>>>>> 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan
>>>>>>> Institute, the first research and training center in the United 
>>>>>>> States
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> the blind led by the blind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nfb-talk:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40att.net
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfb-talk:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/jeanette%40fortin-home.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nfb-talk:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfb-talk:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfb-talk mailing list
>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nfb-talk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/bennett.prows%40hhs.gov
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfb-talk mailing list
>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nfb-talk:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
>-- 
>Nimer M. Jaber
>
>The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent.
>If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify
>me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken
>as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient
>may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my
>machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible
>for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions
>or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you.
>Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these
>instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies
>of this email from your computer.
>
>Registered Linux User 529141.
>http://counter.li.org/
>Vinux testing and documentation coordinator
>To get more information about a free and accessible operating system,
>please click here:
>http://www.vinuxproject.org
>
>To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP
>and above, please click here:
>http://www.nvda-project.org
>
>Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here:
>http://nimertech.blogspot.com
>
>Phone: (720) (251-4530)
>Please reply to this email to contact me.
>
>_______________________________________________
>nfb-talk mailing list
>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>nfb-talk:
>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/tjcarter%40spiritsubstance.com

_______________________________________________
nfb-talk mailing list
nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nfb-talk:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net 





More information about the nFB-Talk mailing list