[nfb-talk] [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
Michael Hingson
info at michaelhingson.com
Sun Dec 16 21:43:02 UTC 2012
It tells me that she has never learned or been shown the value of a cane or
a guide dog. I wonder how many times in her life has someone passed up the
choice to show her how she could travel more effectively, (probably). Her
parents perhaps didn't help her. Her teachers may or may not have tried.
Who worked with her when she was in her 20s and so on.
Astounding for sure, but her situation, I think, is as much an indictment on
society as anything.
Best,
Michael Hingson
-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua
Lester
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 01:08 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
It would be different if she was younger, but the fact that she has been
blind all of her life, and has been independent forever, makes it
astounding!
The woman is 63 years old!
That ought to tell you something!
I can remember in my state NFB chapter, when guide dogs were looked down
upon.
Here's a quote from a former member who has passed away now.
BTW, I don't agree with his words, but this is what he said.
"Guide dogs, are so ACB!"
Really?
Give me a break!
Blessings, Joshua
________________________________________
From: nfb-talk [nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ray Foret Jr
[rforetjr at att.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 3:00 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
wait! AS you say, "Hold up!".
Perhaps we're getting oficial policy confused with perception. That lady
might have said, "A Real federationist uses a cane." because, in her mind,
the cane is the simple of independence and freedom; and, to put it bluntly,
perhaps she was at the stage where her newly aquired independence made her
feel bthat she was bettter than and therefore, above blind people who didn't
have or use the skills. I know as a fact that some federationists are like
that. How do I know, well, confession time: I was that way myself. I
almost lost a life-long friend over it. Y'all, that hurts. It makes you
re-think your purseptions about a lot of things.
Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray
Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
On Dec 16, 2012, at 2:41 PM, Buddy Brannan <buddy at brannan.name> wrote:
> Hold up.
>
> A "real Federationist" uses a cane?
>
> Excuse me?
>
> Has our organization become as judgmental and unwelcoming as our critics
would have it?
>
> If so, I'm out as of now.
>
> The Federation I know, or thought I knew, welcomed all blind people,
regardless of ability or regardless of where they are in their adjustment to
blindness. The NFB I know, or thought I knew, didn't castigate its members
for not being "superblinks", or, at the very least, living up to some ideal
or other. The NFB I know, or thought I knew, helped blind folks progress in
their philosophy of blindness and attitudes towards it, leading by example
and not by clubbing people over their virtual heads.
>
> Sure, your house, your rules; if you don't want to allow someone in your
home without a cane, it's your right. It's your home, after all. It isn't
terribly welcoming or nurturing, though. Whether this member's limitations
are real or imagined, they're real to her.
>
> There's a huge difference between good-natured ribbing and browbeating
though.
>
> BTW, what if I use a guide dog most of the time? Am I only "real" part of
the time?
>
> I believe folks like Mr. Capps use a human guide most of the time, if not
all of the time, and have for decades. Would you say that Mr. Capps is not a
"real" Federationist? I'd defy you to find someone who's done more for the
NFB in particular and blind folks in general than Don Capps.
>
> So, am I resigning, thus cutting our chapter membership by significant, or
was I correct about our movement, meaning I can stay?
>
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>
>
>
> On Dec 16, 2012, at 3:24 PM, Joshua Lester
<JLester8462 at PCCUAEDU.onmicrosoft.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Aleeha!
>> Great post as always, and it's good to see you back on the lists!
>> I use a cane all of the time when I travel.
>> While at the communities of faith service one day at convention, I
>> was in a hurry and my NFB folding cane wasn't unfolding propperly, so I
had to go up without it, to accompany a singer, (I'm a pianist.) When I got
back, word got to the lady that was running the service, that I had left my
cane at my seat.
>> She, assuming that I didn't use the cane all of the time, blurted out
that a real federationist uses a cane!
>> I agree that a real federationist uses a cane, but when the folding cane
doesn't cooperate, and you leave the other one in the hotel room, it's
difficult!
>> We should all be careful of what we say and how we say it, because if I
was someone from the outside looking in, I would've probably left this
organization over it!
>> Blessings, Joshua
>> ________________________________________
>> From: nfb-talk [nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Aleeha
>> Dudley [blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 2:13 PM
>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>
>> I, too, believe we've just about beaten this topic to death, though i
>> do have something to say. To propose not allowing someone into your
>> house, chapter meeting, or anywhere else because they do not use a
>> travel aid is, quite frankly, a bit harsh. We, as a Federation, have
>> always called ourselves the Federation family. Ideally, a family is
>> caring and welcomes new members without fuss, no matter their
>> differences. I believe this new individual should be welcomed into
>> the Federation with open arms and minds. If we can help her to
>> understand the benefits of using a cane or dog and that these tools
>> are not bad things to have around, she may come to understand and
>> make her own decisions. When you say that she is a danger to herself,
>> should not your first goal be to help her get out of that danger? I
>> believe that excluding her will lead to further injury. Let's help
>> her become a strong, independent blind person if we can. Tell her the
>> story of your friend who also has seizures. Tell her success stories
>> and show how much a cane or a dog makes a difference. Then go from
>> there. This person should not be excluded just because she is not
>> choosing to use a travel aid. For all we know, she could have come to
>> us for help and has just not asked for it yet because she may not yet
>> feel comfortable. Sometimes we forget as Federationists that taking a
>> step to become "committed" to one organization or another can be
>> quite intimidating.
>> JMO,
>> Aleeha
>>
>> On 12/16/12, Mike Edwards <mike at ultraemail.us> wrote:
>>> Ray Charles prided himself on not using a cane, "No cane, no dog, no
>>> guitar", but, those were different times.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 11:32 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>
>>>
>>> Content preview: Perter, that's a difficult one! I get around with
>>> and with
>>> out canes and dogs but routinely use both. I would say that
>>> showing by example
>>> is best but sounds like this person just doesn't get it! I wonder
>>> if they
>>> couldn't be hooked up with a good mobility instructor. Maybe just
>>> at first
>>> as a person your chapter brings in. For example, ant Ann Arbor
>>> chapter brings
>>> in a mobility instructor who teaches cane technique to everyone!
>>> He also teaches cane manners such as how to put your cane under the
>>> table or how
>>>
>>> not
>>> to put it between peoples legs. This might give your person an
>>> opportunity
>>> to try using a cane and not be singled out for what he doesn't
>>> know. Of
>>>
>>> course,
>>> his real issue is he is probably to embarrassed to use a cane!
>>> But, they should be more embarrassed about how unsafe they are
>>> being! ----- Original
>>> Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com> To:
>>> "Blind Talk
>>> Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> Cc: "Daniel Carr"
>>> <danlcarr at www.carrtronics.com>;
>>> <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:06 PM Subject:
>>> Re:
>>> [nfb-talk] [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane [...]
>>>
>>> Content analysis details: (-4.6 points, 5.0 required)
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>>>
>>> Perter, that's a difficult one! I get around with and with out
>>> canes and dogs but routinely use both. I would say that showing by
>>> example is best but sounds like this person just doesn't get it! I
>>> wonder if they couldn't be hooked up with a good mobility
>>> instructor. Maybe just at first as a person your chapter brings in.
>>> For example, ant Ann Arbor chapter brings in a mobility instructor
>>> who teaches cane technique to everyone! He also teaches cane
>>> manners such as how to put your cane under the table or how not to
>>> put it between peoples legs. This might give your person an
>>> opportunity to try using a cane and not be singled out for what he
>>> doesn't know. Of course, his real issue is he is probably to
embarrassed to use a cane!
>>> But,
>>> they should be more embarrassed about how unsafe they are being!
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: "Daniel Carr" <danlcarr at www.carrtronics.com>;
>>> <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:06 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello Cheryl and everyone,
>>>
>>> While we don't want to push people away if folks are falling and
>>> getting hurt there should come a time to draw a line in the sand and
>>> demand that these folks use travel aids and offer to help them
>>> improve their techniques or get VR services or apply for a guide dog
>>> to assist them with this endeavor. The question we're really asking
>>> is if such individuals refuse to learn blindness travel skills, are
>>> constantly hurting themselves and posing a safety threat to
>>> themselves and others, and have repeatedly been offered assistance
>>> and continue to refuse it when do we draw the line with such persons
>>> and demand that they improve their travel skills or face
>>> consequences if they continue to refuse to do so? When is it time
>>> for the day of reckoning? My own feelings are that if the individual
>>> in question does not pose a threat to themselves or others in a
>>> particular environment they can get around by whatever travel method
>>> they feel works best for them.
>>> This particular person uses neither echolocation, a cane, a dog, or
>>> a human guide. It's this choice that has prompted chapter members
>>> to ask this question. Thanks for the feedback.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "cheryl echevarria" <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>
>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 7:30 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I was recently talking with my good friend and President of our
>>> Westchester Chapter here in NY, he is witnessing more and more blind
>>> people not using there canes and getting hurt, also I recently spoke
>>> to a high school student here on Long Island, who we were trying to
>>> help her get services in her district, since they just moved to a
>>> town over from me.
>>> She has a cane but doesn't use it.
>>> She has some sight, I asked her can you tell when there is a whole
>>> in the street, or like me when I started losing my vision, if the
>>> rug on the floor was the same as the stairs, could she tell when the
>>> stairs started or ended, I couldn't wow, that was a learning lesson
>>> for me.
>>> She said no, her mother said that the other kids in her other school
>>> stayed away from each other.
>>> But adults please, I know it is depressing, at times I don't get out
>>> of bed, and for those of you who know my wonderful husband, Nelson,
>>> wont stand for it.
>>> Instead of picking on people or pointing them out, keep encouraging
>>> them, don't push, you will push them away.
>>> Cheryl
>>>
>>> Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the Way
>>> in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel
>>> Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria,
>>> Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@echevar
>>> riatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>> Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.Echevarria
>>> Travel and proud member of the National Federation of the Blind will
>>> be holding a year round fundraiser for the http://www.NFBNY.org
>>> after Hurricane Sandy and other resources. Any vacation package
>>> booked between November 6 2012-November 6, 2013 and vacation must be
>>> traveled no later than
>>> 12/30/2014
>>> a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate. Also is you
>>> book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families and friends
>>> resorts vacation,
>>> $100.00 per booking will go to the affiliate as well. You do not
>>> need to be a member of the NFB.org, just book through us.
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: rforetjr at att.net
>>>> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 07:04:57 -0600
>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>>
>>>> Some points of observation.
>>>>
>>>> 1. Perhaps this individual is not willing even to acknowledge
>>>> their blindness?
>>>>
>>>> 2. Does this individual even acknowledge that there are other
>>>> blind people who have seasures and the like and still use canes and or
dogs?
>>>>
>>>> 3. Does this individual have any blindness skills at all?
>>>>
>>>> 4. Is this individual as hard headed about other aspects of his life?
>>>>
>>>> 5. Would it be correct to assume that y'all have tried to
>>>> physically demonstrate the usefulness of the cane?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>>>> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 16, 2012, at 6:52 AM, "Peter Donahue"
>>>> <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Good morning everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> An who belonged to our Florida Affiliate recently moved to San
>>>>> Antonio and wishes to join our chapter. This person is totally
>>>>> blind and absolutely refuses to use a cane. They recently showed
>>>>> up at our Christmas party and had to be helped in to and out of
>>>>> the meeting room we used for this event.
>>>>> Members were surprised when they discovered that this person
>>>>> showed up without their cane. When later questioned about this the
>>>>> person began giving us all manner of excuse. They told us that
>>>>> their neurologist and past O&M instructors recommended against the
>>>>> use of the cane due to this person's having seizures. This
>>>>> individual attended Perkins along with a number of other schools
>>>>> for the blind. I know for a fact that at least while at Perkins
>>>>> this individual lived in a cottage with another person who also
>>>>> has seizures and is one of the best travelers I know. Like this
>>>>> person, the confident cane user is totally blind and is someone I
>>>>> came to know well.
>>>>> The
>>>>> individual in question undoubtedly met many other successful blind
>>>>> cane users with other disabilities. I myself have seizures and
>>>>> sleep apnea and use both a cane and a dog depending on the
>>>>> situation.
>>>>>
>>>>> The individual refusing to use their cane has all ready been told
>>>>> by several members in the area that if they wish to visit them
>>>>> the/she must bring their cane and use it to get from their
>>>>> transportation in to our residence and if necessary use the cane
>>>>> during their visit.
>>>>>
>>>>> When attempting to reason with the person in question members
>>>>> have been accused of "Bullying" them and have heard all excuses in
>>>>> the book why he/she cannot use a cane proficiently. The individual
>>>>> has been told that neurologists are not qualified to determine
>>>>> whether or not the use of a travel aid can effect one's seizures.
>>>>> The evidence to the contrary is over whelmingly against this
>>>>> horsepuckey. As we also know not all blindness professionals have
>>>>> true belief in the capabilities of the blind. This individual
>>>>> obviously had a few such persons in their life to sell them short
>>>>> on their ability to travel independently and on the importance of
>>>>> using a cane or a dog. The individual has been told that if they
>>>>> show up at any of our homes without their cane we will call them a
>>>>> cab and promptly send them home at their expense something they
>>>>> can avoid simply by listening to reason and using their cane
>>>>> whenever traveling. We're busy people. The last thing we need to
>>>>> have to do is take someone to the emergency room when we know that
>>>>> an individual has complete disregard for their personal safety and
>>>>> as negligent. It seems like direct threat provisions of the ADA
>>>>> may apply in this situation where public venues are concerned. The
>>>>> lawyers can help us wit this one.
>>>>>
>>>>> We want to help this person achieve a higher degree of
>>>>> independence and be an active member of our chapter. While we
>>>>> won't prohibit them from joining us they'll be a more effective
>>>>> contributor to the cause if they would embrace the alternative
>>>>> techniques of blindness and use them regularly. Thanks for your
>>>>> help and suggestions.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>
>>>>> "No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper."
>>>>> Isaiah 54:17
>>>>>
>>>>> "While for our princes they prepare In caverns deep a burning
>>>>> snare, He shot from heaven a piercing ray, And the dark treachery
>>>>> brought to day."
>>>>> Anonymous
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/rforetjr%40a
>>>>> tt.net
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> for
>>>> blindtlk:
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>>>> %40hotmail.com
>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
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